Russia expels 23 British diplomats as crisis over nerve toxin attack deepens

[evadgib]

It has yet to be clarified how the authorities knew it was a chemical attack rather than just another pair of high-as-a-kite druggies which sadly are part of the furniture in city centres these days. They were remarkably quick off the mark if the timeframe in the public domain is accurate.

Edited March 18, 2018 by evadgib

[maximillian]

8 hours ago, meechai said:

Last night I watched the news from Washington, the capitol
The Russians escaped while we weren't watching them, like Russians will
Now we've got all this room, we've even got the moon
And I hear the U.S.S.R. will be open soon
As vacation land for lawyers in love

 

I can't keep up with what's been going on
I think my heart must just be slowing down
Among the human beings in their designer jeans
Am I the only one who hears the screams
And the strangled cries of lawyers in love

God sends his spaceships to America, the beautiful
They land at six o'clock and there we are, the dutiful
Eating from TV trays, tuned into to Happy Days
Waiting for World War III while Jesus slaves
To the mating calls of lawyers in love

Last night I watched the news from Washington, the capitol
The Russians escaped while we weren't watching them
like Russians will
Now we've got all this room, we've even got the moon
And I hear the U.S.S.R. will be open soon
As vacation land for lawyers in love

Lawyers in love

 

Lawyers in love

Songwriter: Jackson Browne

Songtext von Lawyers In Love © Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd., Peermusic Publishing

 

[maximillian]

1 hour ago, khunken said:

Well both the Litvinenko case & the current one are 'alleged'. Finger-pointing is not proof.

 

As regards assassinations of so-called terrorists in the so-called 'war on terror', again none have been proven guilty. If Russia is proven to be the guilty party, they could take a leaf out of the accusers' book and just call it their 'war on terrorists'.

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

 

[cliveshep]

There seems to be no reason for Russia to assassinate a former spy who has been living in the open for years. But there could be reasons for others to do so to put Russia "in the frame".

 

I'm not particularly pro-Russia nor anti-Russia but I admire Putin for how he does seem to put his country first and not himself as UK politicians do. 

 

People seem to expect Russia to behave like other Western nations but it is an independent country, not tied to the EU nor to the USA and goes it's own way as it is entitled to. Yes it has not hesitated to kill on other country's soil in the past and probably will do so again, but then look at the US and UK and Israel - they are very good at that too.

 

There is a well written and researched article that makes a good alternative case here: https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/the-british-governments-russia-nerve-agent-claims-are-bullshit-a69b4ee484ce

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

Don’t make me laugh Russia today is Kremlin sponcerd.

So?

 

Oh yes i get it, Kremlin is bad, Russians are bad, Chinese are bad.

 

Someone doesn't want to share the play garden, but I think you missed that one .

[Basil B]

1 minute ago, buick said:

does this suggestion include blocking the import of russian oil and gas ?  that is really the only thing that will have any impact on russia (and even then, they may get by just fine).

 

 

Estimated 1% of our gas comes indirectly from Russia...

Quote

Conservative MP Stephen Crabb asked: "Is she aware that Britain has recently started to receive shipments of liquefied natural gas, and does she agree that Britain should not provide a market for Russian gas? If we need to bring in extra LNG imports, we have allies such as Qatar, Malaysia and Australia who are more than willing to sell it to us."

Mrs May responded: "I can reassure my right honourable friend that in looking at our gas supplies we are indeed looking to other countries."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43421431

 

And we do not have to purchase oil from Russia...

[maximillian]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 OK Comrade, so where did the Russian poison come from, and how did it end up in England?

 

And if not Russia, then who would want to assassinate an ex-Russian agent turned informer?

 

 

"...who would want to assassinate an ex-Russian agent turned informer?"

 

Don't be so naive. Somebody who wants to give Russia a bad name. I saw a lot of Putin bashing recently. Then there are the  elections, the soccer championship, to increase tensions with an insubordinate country...

I can think of some names and countries being able to kill for aforementioned reason.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There sure are a lot of Russian/Putin apologists here, but I'm not sure why.

 

If you're Russian or related, then of course I can understand. Or perhaps a bunch of embittered Brits who hate anything and won't believe anything said by their current government. OK....

 

But in the bigger scheme of things, most thinking folks aren't likely to be nominating Comrade Putin for the humanitarian of the year award or anything close to it. He's a ruthless dictator without much of a disguise, and has a well-earned reputation for being involved in any variety of nasty things -- except among those who deliberately don't want to see or believe.

 

No one here knows for sure who attempted to kill Skripal and his daughter. But based on the available evidence thus far, the likely motivations, and the track record of those involved, Russia and Putin emerge as the most likely suspects, among most people, again, except for those who deliberately don't want to see or believe.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I must have missed the evidence in that investigation, maybe you have access to it and can post it here.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/21/europe/litvinenko-inquest-report/index.html

 

Litvinenko: Not first Putin critic to end up dead -- or last

https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/europe/russia-putin-critics/index.html

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[janclaes47]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/21/europe/litvinenko-inquest-report/index.html

 

Litvinenko: Not first Putin critic to end up dead -- or last

https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/europe/russia-putin-critics/index.html

 

 

So assumptions are  considered evidence in your understanding ?

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

Your criticism of him was a bit vague, so I just wanted to clear it up .

OK. Fair enough.

 

[chickenslegs]

26 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

 

So assumptions are  considered evidence in your understanding ?

Yes - just a series of unfortunate coincidences.

2006 - Igor Ponomarev and Alexander Litvinenko 

2007 - Yuri Golubev

2008 - Badri Patarkatsishvili

2010 - Gareth Williams, the former GCHQ codebreaker was found dead locked inside a sports bag in his flat. Before his death it was reported that focused on Russia and money-laundering. 

2012 - Alexander Perepilichnyy 

2013 - Boris Berezovsky 

2014 - Scot Young was a friend of Berezovsky, who represented the oligarch in business trips to Russia.

2016 - Dr Matthew Puncher, the British scientist who discovered that Litvinenko had been poisoned, died five months after visiting Russia. 

2018 - Sergei Skripa, Yulia (his daughter), Nikolai Glushkov, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey

 

Source:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nikolai-glushkov-russia-linked-deaths-britain-sergei-skripal-yulia-a8260271.html

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, chickenslegs said:

Yes - just a series of unfortunate coincidences.

2006 - Igor Ponomarev and Alexander Litvinenko 

 

2007 - Yuri Golubev

 

2008 - Badri Patarkatsishvili

 

2010 - Gareth Williams, the former GCHQ codebreaker was found dead locked inside a sports bag in his flat. Before his death it was reported that focused on Russia and money-laundering. 

 

2012 - Alexander Perepilichnyy 

 

2013 - Boris Berezovsky 

 

2014 - Scot Young was a friend of Berezovsky, who represented the oligarch in business trips to Russia.

 

2016 - Dr Matthew Puncher, the British scientist who discovered that Litvinenko had been poisoned, died five months after visiting Russia. 

 

2018 - Sergei Skripa, Yulia (his daughter), Nikolai Glushkov, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey

 

Source:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/nikolai-glushkov-russia-linked-deaths-britain-sergei-skripal-yulia-a8260271.html

 

 

When you look up any of these names, you won't find any concrete evidence about who murdered them, but what the results have all in common is " xx had many enemies".

 

 

[chickenslegs]

Just now, janclaes47 said:

 

When you look up any of these names, you won't find any concrete evidence about who murdered them, but what the results have all in common is " xx had many enemies".

 

 

As I said - Just a series of unfortunate coincidences (or, could it be professional expertise?).

[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

As I said - Just a series of unfortunate coincidences (or, could it be professional expertise?).

 

the only thing coincidences and evidences have in common are the last 7 letters, but if that floats your boat then so be it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Seems the Wall Street Journal is following the same theory I raised above:

 

Quote

 

After President Vladimir Putin came to power in 2000, the Kremlin took firmer control over the country’s sprawling arms industry. Since Russia passed legislation in 2006 that sanctioned the killing of Russia’s enemies abroad, Moscow has struggled with denying it performs such assassinations even as it warns traitors that they may be next.

 

Analysts say the hit could have been carried out as a way of warning those in the Russian elite, including those abroad, that treason during a time of tension with the West is no longer tolerated.

 

Keir Giles, senior consulting fellow at Chatham House, said it would be difficult to imagine “that it would be possible to obtain such a tightly controlled substance and export it to the U.K., without the approval of very senior individuals in at least one Russian intelligence service.”

 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/puzzle-in-hit-on-russian-spy-how-did-attackers-get-the-nerve-agent/ar-BBKhZ6D

[Credo]

19 hours ago, SouthernDelight said:

It certainly looks that way, an element of doubt comes to mind:

1. Iran synthesied Novichok nerve agents in cooperation with the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). The fact that Iran can do it shows that others can do it, the chemical structure can be found on the net.

2. The Russian scientist, Vil Mirzayanov, who originally helped develop the nerve agent Novichok believed to have been used in the poisoning of a Russian double agent in Britain said other countries could have also produced test samples of the substance.
Mirzayanov said he had published the formula for the agents — known as novichok — in a 2008 English-language book called State Secrets: An Insider's Chronicle Of The Russian Chemical Weapons Program Secrets.

“The British could certainly have synthesized it on the basis of the formulas that I published in my book,” Mirzayanov said in the interview conducted at his home in New Jersey.

“Each country takes care of its own security, and as part of the study of possible threats, a model could have been created,” he said.

So please, without a major conspiracy theory, explain why Iran would want to kill a Russian spy in Britain?   Or explain why Britain would want to kill a Russian Spy they let live there?   Why not simply deport him if they didn't want him?   Does Britain not have enough on it's plate?

 

 

[spidermike007]

19 hours ago, Grouse said:

Russia has every right to expel  23 Brits. The UK gov is assuming Putin had something to do with the poisoning without  hard evidence. This bias in the western media about everything Russian is out of control.  Theyre now trying to cut transmission of RT TV in the west,. RT gives a professional second opinion on all the dribble that CNN and BBC go on with everyday.

 

Now that is delusional

I enjoy watching RT, as they do offer a perspective not found with the other outlets. But, having said that, I am always mindful of the fact that it is an organ for King Vlad and the Kremlin. Granted, all media outlets are biased these days. They all have an editorial slant. But, when was the last time you saw a piece on RT that was critical of Putin, or Gasprom, or the Kremlin? It rarely ever happens. I always keep that in mind, just as I keep the editorial slant in mind while watching CNN, the BBC, or Fox. 

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-prime-minister-morawiecki-18-march-2018

[StraightTalk]

1 hour ago, Credo said:

So please, without a major conspiracy theory...

You may wish to revisit this particular thread in its entirety.
I responded to an excerpt of lanista post #8.
Conspiracy theories were not mentioned in this exchange of posts.

[SheungWan]

11 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There sure are a lot of Russian/Putin apologists here, but I'm not sure why.

There's a whole bunch of them coming from both Hard Left and Hard Right. From both sides Putin's Russia is to be defended and the usual faux legalism used to kick the matter into the long grass (or at least attempt to). Its a populist article of faith.

[StraightTalk]

12 hours ago, cliveshep said:

There seems to be no reason for Russia to assassinate a former spy who has been living in the open for years. But there could be reasons for others to do so to put Russia "in the frame".

[snip]

People seem to expect Russia to behave like other Western nations but it is an independent country, not tied to the EU nor to the USA and goes it's own way as it is entitled to. Yes it has not hesitated to kill on other country's soil in the past and probably will do so again, but then look at the US and UK and Israel - they are very good at that too.

Sensible and balanced post. I wish to add that a large number contributers here advocate the 'presumption of guilt' rather the 'presumption of innocence'. Very sad imho.

[Opl]

1 hour ago, SouthernDelight said:

Sensible and balanced post. I wish to add that a large number contributers here advocate the 'presumption of guilt' rather the 'presumption of innocence'. Very sad imho.

 

Please read Oilinki's sensitive post n°8 in the thread below...

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1029683-putin-says-nonsense-to-think-russia-would-poison-spy-in-britain/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 But, when was the last time you saw a piece on RT that was critical of Putin, or Gasprom, or the Kremlin? It rarely ever happens. I always keep that in mind, just as I keep the editorial slant in mind while watching CNN, the BBC, or Fox. 

 

Perhaps that's because RT is funded by the Russian government, and thus is in no position to report objectively on its masters.

 

Quote

 

He [Putin] then addressed the question of the network's allegiance to official Kremlin policy, making the somewhat but not entirely contradictory points that he never expected it to serve as a Kremlin mouthpiece but that it "cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position."

I’d like to emphasize something of the key importance. We never expected this to be a news agency or a channel which would defend the position of the Russian political line. We wanted to bring an absolutely independent news channel to the news arena.

Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position on the events in our country and in the rest of the world one way or another. But I’d like to underline again that we never intended this channel, RT, as any kind of apologetics for the Russian political line, whether domestic or foreign.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/06/13/in-case-you-werent-clear-on-russia-todays-relationship-to-moscow-putin-clears-it-up/?utm_term=.607d6979a320

 

Quote

 

However, statements by RT’s editor-in-chief in 2012–13, covering earlier years, indicate that the station’s mission and philosophy are not journalistic but military, and it serves as an “information weapon” parallel to the Ministry of Defense in times of conflict — including at present.

An analysis of RT’s former and current output confirms this view. It has repeatedly subordinated journalistic standards to Russian government narratives, selectively reporting facts and comments to validate the Kremlin’s portrayal of events. A similar selectivity appears to apply to interviewees.

 

https://medium.com/dfrlab/question-that-rts-military-mission-4c4bd9f72c88

[evadgib]

Boris today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/salisbury-attack-foreign-secretarys-remarks-to-media-at-the-march-2018-foreign-affairs-council

[Morch]

22 hours ago, cliveshep said:

There seems to be no reason for Russia to assassinate a former spy who has been living in the open for years. But there could be reasons for others to do so to put Russia "in the frame".

 

I'm not particularly pro-Russia nor anti-Russia but I admire Putin for how he does seem to put his country first and not himself as UK politicians do. 

 

People seem to expect Russia to behave like other Western nations but it is an independent country, not tied to the EU nor to the USA and goes it's own way as it is entitled to. Yes it has not hesitated to kill on other country's soil in the past and probably will do so again, but then look at the US and UK and Israel - they are very good at that too.

 

There is a well written and researched article that makes a good alternative case here: https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/the-british-governments-russia-nerve-agent-claims-are-bullshit-a69b4ee484ce

 

"There seems to be no reason for Russia to assassinate a former spy who has been living in the open for years."

 

Putin disagrees:

 

'Traitors will kick the bucket' — watch Vladimir Putin's chilling warning to spies who betray Russia

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-threatened-russian-traitors-the-year-sergei-skripal-went-to-uk-2018-3

[Morch]

On 3/18/2018 at 5:49 PM, dunroaming said:

It's interesting how the word "punishing" is used in this context.  Are we punishing him?  In which case by retaliating tit for tat then he is, in return "punishing" us.  In real terms there is not actually anything we can do to "punish" him at all. And vise versa. 

 

I think that there are ways of personally getting back at Putin. Target his offshore funds, for example. Limit his personal access to countries. Allow legal persecution on a personal level. Make available dirt public. Whatever.

 

Reason this is not being done is that (1) Russia (Putin) can get back along similar lines, and (2) Diplomatic norms usually exclude heads of state (especially of powerful countries) from such harassment.

 

More won't than can't. As to how effective such steps would be, and what they'd cost - different issues.

[Morch]

If "someone" carried out the attack in order to "frame" Russia/Putin, they would have an interest in leads pointing more firmly that way. Making a rather elaborate and risky effort which lacks a clear clue as to whodunit, is about as lame as a Thai crime news story without finger pointing.

 

If "someone" carried out the attack in order to improve political support and/or popular image - is there any clear evidence this is working out? And why Russia/Putin, for that matter? No lack of other "villains" around, and probably easier to get rough and tough with them. 

[metisdead]

A post containing content from RT News has been removed as RT News is a disallowed source on this site.  

 

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[buick]

On 3/18/2018 at 7:31 AM, Basil B said:

Estimated 1% of our gas comes indirectly from Russia...

it is possible that the numbers have been 'massaged' a bit.  the linked article below, included this (i interpret this as being a russian company but the gas is not coming from russia.  the russian company gives the money back to the state so it is the company that is most important, not where the actual gas originates):

 

'While Europe as a whole gets more than a third of its gas from Russia, that share is lower in the UK, which receives the bulk of its fuel from North Sea fields and Norway. Still, Moscow-based Gazprom PJSC was the second-biggest supplier to major industrial consumers in the UK last year, according to Britain’s energy regulator Ofgem.'

 

http://www.worldoil.com/news/2018/3/14/may-seeks-alternatives-for-russian-gas-after-spy-scandal

 

i'm not an expert in this area at all and am happy to read more on the topic.  not trying to argumentative at all.