Online Teaching

[mommysboy]

43 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

" ....whether it effects Thailand seem to be guiding factors."

 

Please support your comment.

 

 

 

This was confirmed by an official in Chiang Mai, though it still can not be considered definitive for all areas.  The link appears earlier in the thread.  Basically, this refers to the safety and security of Thailand and its people- I suppose we might just say doing something harmful or illegal.  The Thai official explained that there are a number of factors that influence a decision.  He also mentioned visibility and scale.

 

http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

Edited March 31, 2018 by mommysboy

[pearciderman]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

You could be forgiven for thinking so...it seems to be outside the law at this moment in time.  

 

Nothing is ever outside the law, that is what laws are for. Only stupid begpackers think the law does not apply to them because it does not mention them by name!

[mommysboy]

16 hours ago, pearciderman said:

 

Nothing is ever outside the law, that is what laws are for. Only stupid begpackers think the law does not apply to them because it does not mention them by name!

 

You need to get a grip!

[pearciderman]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

You need to get a grip!

 

Please explain.

[Loaded]

On 3/31/2018 at 3:15 PM, mommysboy said:

This was confirmed by an official in Chiang Mai, though it still can not be considered definitive for all areas.  The link appears earlier in the thread.  Basically, this refers to the safety and security of Thailand and its people- I suppose we might just say doing something harmful or illegal.  The Thai official explained that there are a number of factors that influence a decision.  He also mentioned visibility and scale.

 

http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

This is quoted from the article:

"5. An overseas company recruits foreigners in Chiang Mai to teach Chinese students online via Skype.

The company is officially established in Hong Kong, but the teachers gather in an office space with computers to ensure a smooth teaching schedule.

 

The verdict: "" YES, this is work and all these foreigners need a work permit. The reason is because the structure of this company is such that it's conducting business in Thailand, and it's using Thai resources (office space, infrastructure) to do so. "

 

This case happened a few years ago when the police arrested foreigners in an office in Riverside Condo.

 

Note how this case is same same but different from the previous case, because if all these foreigners would be sitting at home in their apartment, this would still be allowed. The grey line zigzags here depending on the work situation, the structure of work and the enforcibility."

 

 

'infrastructure' is the key word here. The internet, electricity, Thai apartments etc. are infrastructure. There is not a 'gray line'.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Loaded

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, Loaded said:

This is quoted from the article:

"5. An overseas company recruits foreigners in Chiang Mai to teach Chinese students online via Skype.

The company is officially established in Hong Kong, but the teachers gather in an office space with computers to ensure a smooth teaching schedule.

 

The verdict: "" YES, this is work and all these foreigners need a work permit. The reason is because the structure of this company is such that it's conducting business in Thailand, and it's using Thai resources (office space, infrastructure) to do so. "

 

This case happened a few years ago when the police arrested foreigners in an office in Riverside Condo.

 

Note how this case is same same but different from the previous case, because if all these foreigners would be sitting at home in their apartment, this would still be allowed. The grey line zigzags here depending on the work situation, the structure of work and the enforcibility."

 

 

'infrastructure' is the key word here. The internet, electricity, Thai apartments etc. are infrastructure. There is not a 'gray line'.

 

 

 

Wrong, biased, and selective!

 

This applies to a company operating from offices and recruiting people to work at the office.  That is the wrong section to quote.  Here is the appropriate section as it applies to the situation we are discussing:

 

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

 

Later, the official goes on to explain that there is no magic formula, and that many factors are used to make a subjective decision.

 

It most definitely is a grey area.

[Loaded]

Wrong, biased, and selective!
 
This applies to a company operating from offices and recruiting people to work at the office.  That is the wrong section to quote.  Here is the appropriate section as it applies to the situation we are discussing:
 

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

 

Later, the official goes on to explain that there is no magic formula, and that many factors are used to make a subjective decision.

 

It most definitely is a grey area.

But they don't use skype, do they. They used a teaching platform. The questions were loaded.

Sent from my CPH1701 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

46 minutes ago, Loaded said:

But they don't use skype, do they. They used a teaching platform. The questions were loaded.

Sent from my CPH1701 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

This is  truly pathetic!  Stop trolling.

[Loaded]

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This is  truly pathetic!  Stop trolling.

You are breaking the law. The one that is trolling this thread is the one denying this.

[youreavinalaff]

25 minutes ago, Loaded said:

You are breaking the law. The one that is trolling this thread is the one denying this.

Not even immigration have made their minds up yet.

 

Could you please provide a link to show us where it categorically  states that" working as a digital nomad is illegal"?

[Loaded]

33 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not even immigration have made their minds up yet.

 

Could you please provide a link to show us where it categorically  states that" working as a digital nomad is illegal"?

Jeeeezzzz (2nd time).

 

There is also no law that categorically states that dwarves can't suck brains out of babies - hence, in your world IT's LEGAL.

[youreavinalaff]

32 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Jeeeezzzz (2nd time).

 

There is also no law that categorically states that dwarves can't suck brains out of babies - hence, in your world IT's LEGAL.

That confirms my original thoughts. Thanks for your help.

[pearciderman]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Not even immigration have made their minds up yet.

 

Could you please provide a link to show us where it categorically  states that" working as a digital nomad is illegal"?

 

Can you provide one that categorically says it is not?

 

The law is the law, you are in Thailand, then the applicable Thai laws count. Do not think that just because they don't chase you it is in any way shape or form legal.

[pearciderman]

On 3/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, ThaiWai said:

If I was an I/O I could bag people all day I see blatantly posting on public FB groups about jobs they want

 

Please explain how wanting a job falls foul of immigration law.

[pearciderman]

On 3/28/2018 at 2:26 PM, phetpeter said:

The main point is you are allowed to teach, most online teaching is not for Thai students, it is for Chinese students, You are working under contract as a freelance tutor. It is your responsibility to declare if required under the law of the country you are in. You are not breaking any Thai laws unless the money is paid to you direct to Thailand, which it is not.

 

STOP! You are so wrong it is painful. Read the applicable law and then come back and comment.

[scorecard]

On 31/3/2561 at 3:15 PM, mommysboy said:

This was confirmed by an official in Chiang Mai, though it still can not be considered definitive for all areas.  The link appears earlier in the thread.  Basically, this refers to the safety and security of Thailand and its people- I suppose we might just say doing something harmful or illegal.  The Thai official explained that there are a number of factors that influence a decision.  He also mentioned visibility and scale.

 

http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

 

 

Your answer is as vague as hell and it's clearly just your attempt to try to back pedal.

 

The Thai law on this subject is clear and is absolute. 

 

The primary point of the written Thai law is that certain occupations are reserved for Thai citizens only,

 

The primary point of the Thai law does not change because the world now has digital nomads who seem to think that they have special rights and some seem to think that working in coffee shops gives them immunity from the written law. 

 

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

17 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

Can you provide one that categorically says it is not?

 

 

No, I can not. That is the whole point. There is no proof either way.

[pearciderman]

8 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

No, I can not. That is the whole point. There is no proof either way.

 

Oh yes there is, the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (1978) (Department of Employment). This clearly in black, (not grey) states what is and is not allowed.

 

Get off your barstool and do some research before commenting.

[Happy Grumpy]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

4 hours ago, Loaded said:

But they don't use skype, do they. They used a teaching platform.

 

Google: Teach English On Skype.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Happy Grumpy

[youreavinalaff]

11 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

Oh yes there is, the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (1978) (Department of Employment). This clearly in black, (not grey) states what is and is not allowed.

 

Get off your barstool and do some research before commenting.

Excellent. Please give me a link so I can read the bit about "digital nomads illegal in Thailand"?

 

Looking forward to a good read.

 

 

[mommysboy]

31 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

 

Your answer is as vague as hell and it's clearly just your attempt to try to back pedal.

 

The Thai law on this subject is clear and is absolute. 

 

The primary point of the written Thai law is that certain occupations are reserved for Thai citizens only,

 

The primary point of the Thai law does not change because the world now has digital nomads who seem to think that they have special rights and some seem to think that working in coffee shops gives them immunity from the written law. 

 

 

 

That's the way it is! Yes, it is a complex area, but really the answer is that given by the Thai official.  It is an area which is vague, and with a great deal of subjectivity.

 

Whilst you may regard my argument nebulous, I regard yours as plain simplistic and quite wrong.

 

Did you read the article?

[attrayant]

The very first time I visited Thailand as a tourist, I planned a two week stay.  When I got here, I decided to extend it by another two weeks, and then another two.  A month and a half in total.  The only problem was that I also had to manage my team back in Washington DC.  I had about a dozen software developers and a handful of business analysts on my team.  I had to conduct daily conference calls via VPN, and lucky for me I had brought my laptop with me.  I also had to do paperwork, read and prepare budget reports and approve time cards.  I was also the city's change manager and had to host weekly change advisory board meetings that all the agency directors could dial into. I got approval from my agency head to do all of this remotely.  This was back in 2006, or thereabouts.

 

Questions:

 

1. Was I running afoul of the Thai labor laws?
2. If so, what could I have done to bring myself into compliance with said labor laws?
3. If what I was doing was okay, would it have become not okay if I were staying much longer, say months instead of weeks?  If I were on a retirement stay instead of a tourist stay?

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by attrayant
added list formatting

[mommysboy]

 

Just now, attrayant said:

The very first time I visited Thailand as a tourist, I planned a two week stay.  When I got here, I decided to extend it by another two weeks, and then another two.  A month and a half in total.  The only problem was that I also had to manage my team back in Washington DC.  I had about a dozen software developers and a handful of business analysts on my team.  I had to conduct daily conference calls via VPN, and lucky for me I had brought my laptop with me.  I also had to do paperwork, read and prepare budget reports and approve time cards.  I was also the city's change manager and had to host weekly change advisory board meetings that all the agency directors could dial into. I got approval from my agency head to do all of this remotely.  This was back in 2006, or thereabouts.

 

Questions:

 

1. Was I running afoul of the Thai labor laws?

2. If so, what could I have done to bring myself into compliance with said labor laws?

3. If what I was doing was okay, would it have become not okay if I were staying much longer, say months instead of weeks?  If I were on a retirement stay instead of a tourist stay?

It's an interesting story.  In the situation you describe you were not falling foul of Thai labor laws.  It is not possible to say if that is the case if you were staying months.  Check the likely answer for yourself:

 

http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

 

This is the closest we have as a definitive answer.  You will note that it provides a number of scenarios. 

 

Generally we can say it is likely regarded as working in Thailand, but that it is unlikely that it would be regarded as such in practice.

[Happy Grumpy]

3 minutes ago, attrayant said:

If what I was doing was okay, would it have become not okay if I were staying much longer, say months instead of weeks?  If I were on a retirement stay instead of a tourist stay?

Put it this way.

 

Non-Immigrant visas other than B category (for employment) used to have 'Employment Prohibited' printed on them.

 

This was removed.

 

 

Doing online work inside your place of residence for a foreign company, with no Thais or Thai company involved, paid into a non-Thai bank account, isn't illegal.  

[mommysboy]

30 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

Oh yes there is, the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (1978) (Department of Employment). This clearly in black, (not grey) states what is and is not allowed.

 

Get off your barstool and do some research before commenting.

This was drafted before the advent of online working in a global setting.  Further interpretation of laws can differ markedly from what appears straightforward in black and white. No one rule can cover all eventualities- now if it were different there would be no need for lawyers would there?

[mommysboy]

Slightly off topic, but it just goes to show how arbitrary the situation is when interpretating labour laws:

 

12. A farang-Thai couple owns a restaurant and the foreigner is involved in the management of the restaurant

The verdict: " This is a common and delicate case. If the foreigner is only sitting in the restaurant but not serving customers, not training or managing staff, not cooking and not buying supplies, then he does NOT need a work permit for this. But if he involves in any of these activities, officially he does need it.

However, at the same time, there is another section of Thai law that applies to this situation which is that when this is a small family business he is allowed to take care of his family.
So in practice, normally no work permit is enforced. "

 

 

Thus one foreigner who is married to a Thai may be deemed not to be working illegally, while his luckless singleton friend could be.  It highlights just how subjectivity plays its part.  

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

No, I can not. That is the whole point. There is no proof either way.

 

Quite right!  Generally,  the law has to be reasonably specific to the alleged offence.  Usually a test case elicits clarification from a judge, and this sets forward a precedent on how similar cases may be tried.  This is known as case law.  The law at present simply does not allow specific detail to cover online scenarios such as the one we are concerned with, and consequently no case law exists either.

 

Moreover, the public prosecutor seems to regard online work as a matter to be handled at a  regional, departmental level according to a set of subjective guidelines.  Thus, if you live in Chiang Mai and immigration say you do not need a work permit then that is the law in action- and this is indeed the current situation.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by mommysboy

[Loaded]

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Quite right!  Generally,  the law has to be reasonably specific to the alleged offence.  Usually a test case elicits clarification from a judge, and this sets forward a precedent on how similar cases may be tried.  This is known as case law.  The law at present simply does not allow specific detail to cover online scenarios such as the one we are concerned with, and consequently no case law exists either.

 

Moreover, the public prosecutor seems to regard online work as a matter to be handled at a  regional, departmental level according to a set of subjective guidelines.  Thus, if you live in Chiang Mai and immigration say you do not need a work permit then that is the law in action- and this is indeed the current situation.

 

 

Ah yes, the ol' basing your legal argument on an episode of a US TV cops show - 'case law' in Thailand lol

 

Great that you can quote the 'public prosecutor' as well. Source please.

 

How many times do people need to repeat to you the actual Thai employment law for aliens?

 

Plus, there's the tax you are not declaring. Who do you declare this to? Your home country? China? Thailand? or are you exempt because you say so?

 

 

 

 

[Happy Grumpy]

54 minutes ago, Loaded said:

Plus, there's the tax you are not declaring. Who do you declare this to?

Your home country.

 

11 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Doing online work inside your place of residence for a foreign company, with no Thais or Thai company involved, paid into a non-Thai bank account, isn't illegal.  

 

 

 

You seem to think that this is.

 

Can you back this up with somebody ever having been arrested for it?

 

Thanks. 

[pearciderman]

12 hours ago, mommysboy said:

However, at the same time, there is another section of Thai law that applies to this situation which is that when this is a small family business he is allowed to take care of his family.

 

I have seen this mentioned before, but nobody has ever provided a link or source - can you?