General refuses to promise end to deaths of ‘punished’ conscripts

[soalbundy]

That's one bit of corruption that I like here, pay 30,000 Baht to avoid your son having anything to do with these morons.

[newcomer71]

You should be the one beaten to a pulp. Military and police forces are the disgrace of this country.

[AGareth2]

there has to be a line between discipline and murder

[cmsally]

26 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

there has to be a line between discipline and murder

There is obviously a problem with the demarcation!

[coulson]

All facets of the military are in dire need of new spin doctors/ spokespersons

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, AGareth2 said:

there has to be a line between discipline and murder

Total agreement. There also has to be a line between death during training and punishment. The latter is a result of rogue soldiers and can be avoided by having strict punishment policies and the perpetrator severely reprimanded to send the right message. The army chief should step in to give that assurance to parents and issue a stern warning. Thai military is a disgrace.

 

[janclaes47]

19 hours ago, Jools said:

If it were my son, the General would pay with his life.

 

Let me guess, you are John Rambo in disguise.

[helloagain]

19 hours ago, Eligius said:

'Conscripts receive about Bt10,000 per month for salary' - to be paid into a bank account in the Great Beyond after the poor, physically abused 'recruit' has been bullied and maltreated unto  Death ...

 

And what an unbelievable statement from a General - about not being able to 'guarantee that trainees will not die' as a result of their 'training'. My God! Talk about a 13th-World country!!

 

Idiots

[evadgib]

Dual nationals could instead join a proper army on a decent wage with a credible redress system in order to side step this lark. They'd also pick up a trade and learn to drive(!)

Edited March 24, 2018 by evadgib

[baboon]

4 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

It should be bought back into many Western countries... Society in general is going downhill fast, no respect anymore, for anything !!

Which is exactly why it wouldn't work. From the 1960s people have been encouraged to exercise their rights and stand up to petty authority. Now you want to slap a cheap uniform on them, make them march up and down and sweep up puddles? Isn't going to happen. The 'Because I said so' ship has long since sailed.

 

[farcanell]

Whilst it’s probably true that he can’t primes no deaths etc.... it’s absolutely amazing that he made the statement... absolutely amazing, and yet another example of bringing shame on Thailand.

 

a more responsible statement would be something along the lines of anyone participating in unregulated or unjust punishment or treatment of others, would he prosecuted to the fullest extend of military law..... and that these actions will not be tolerated

[sawadeeken]

Broadcast and Publish 'THIS' around the world so other Nations can form their own opinion of how 'civilized' the Army is HERE....... Another 'General' which heads this nation............

Anybody could draw their own conclusions.............

[Kimber]

On ‎23‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, scorecard said:

 

I don't disagree in any way.

 

Let me share, when I was a conscript in Australia for the Vietnam conflict, there was also severe punishments at times.

 

Just one example, one recruit stuffed up, so the whole platoon was punished. About 2.00 am in the morning the whole platoon was called out naked onto the parade ground, freezing point weather (0 degrees celcius, I forget what that was in fahrenheit).

 

The Sergeant told the whole platoon to line up (naked) in one long line, 50 recruits, and stand with legs wide apart, both hands on your head.

 

The sergeant walked along at the rear of the line with a baseball bat and selected recruits at random to hit that recruit very strongly up between his legs, hitting directly on the genitals area.

 

The drill corporal then put a mark on the back of the recruit just hit. The recruit just hit had to stay in the line. The sergeant continued to very slowly select recruits at random until he hit/punished every boy the same way, until all 50 had been punished.

 

We all stood there in freezing point weather until it was all completed, took about 3 hours.

 

A few days later, when we had to attend compulsory lectures with the camp chaplain, the chaplain asked nicely if there was anybody who wanted to talk privately about any problems they were having.

 

Two or three recruits then spoke privately (together) to the chaplain, they mentioned the baseball bat incident. Within about 20 minutes they were in the military police jail and held there until that batch of recruits moved out of basic training (I guess 3 weeks later) and they had to start rookie training again.

 

But hey, it's not OK, regardless of country, and the staff responsible for the violence should be subject to even more serious punishment including jail time and shaming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I call BULLSHIT. 

 

Recruit Basic Training Platoons numbered an even 30 Recruits in the early 70's at all 3 RTB's in existence during and just after the Vietnam war.   That 30 member Platoon strength continues to this day. 

 

If what you described had occurred it would have been reported to the Recruit Company Officer Commanding (OC) and by the recruits themselves, as many of the "Nashos" (National Servicemen) who were renowned for whistle blowing to their local Members of Parliament and their own families. 

 

By the late 60's early 70's the Australian Army was very aware of the effect of negative PR , and any SNCO (Sergeant) who had dealt with his Platoon as you described; would have been Court Martialed, not something a career Soldier would invite.

 

Since WW1 the Australian Military Regulations (AMR...now DFLMA ) in regard to discipline and punishment have been prescribed in detail, and woe betide any Officer, Warrant Officer or Sergeant who exceeds them. 

 

The Chaplain you mentioned, would have had a direct line of communication (still protocol to this day) with the Commanding Officer (CO) of the Recruit Battalion; and was/is under legal obligation to inform the CO of such heinous misconduct described in your account.  

 

Additionally the unit Medical Officer (MO) would have been made aware of the injuries inflicted (can you imagine the effect of a Baseball bat blow to the genitals ?), because the Recruits sustaining such a punishment would have been incapacitated enough to report on Sick Parade at the Regiment Aid Post (RAP) the next morning....providing they could still walk.   

Again the MO would have been under legal obligation to report such injuries to so many Men, to the unit CO; who would have ordered an immediate formal investigation.  

The phones in Canberra would have been running hot. 

 

Considering all of the above, will your reply claim a cover-up ?  

If so how ? 

 

When the Whitlam government came to power and called for submissions regarding Australian Defence Force (ADF) improprieties, why wasn't your case highlighted ? 

 

BTW I was a career Soldier 1972 to 2007 in the Australian Army, and your service was ? 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Kimber

[Kimber]

9 hours ago, DoctorG said:

Scorecard.

I am having a hard time getting my head around your story because I was a recruit in that same era and I never saw/experienced any kind of hazing/bastardization in any of the units I was in.

Were you one of the 50 nut-cracking recruits?

You and I both mate, feel free to read my reply in this thread. 

[cookieqw]

the truth, the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH

[IAMHERE]

On 3/23/2018 at 3:55 AM, Jools said:

If it were my son, the General would pay with his life.

Which Genreal is to blame? There must be thousands of them.

[sawadeeken]

Can we get this topic out on Facebook and maybe other public media?????   I don't know how to do Facebook or I would do it.......... This is something for 'all the world' to know about............. It makes me think back to when I was a young man in the 1960's and stories I would hear about RUSSIA.....RED COMMUNIST Russia........ Stories of the Police State and the atrocities upon the civilians (and probably conscripts as well).......

As I grew older Russia ended 'Communism' and I can still remember my brother (God rest his Soul) saying one day.... " You've heard that Russia got rid of Communism"  he said,.....  "Well, just have a look around you and you will see where 'IT' went"........

If you are fortunate enough to be in this "Police State" and call it home....... Then "Have a look around" and you may see where 'IT' has gone......... This topic seems a good warning of what is to come.........

[evadgib]

45 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

Which Genreal is to blame? There must be thousands of them.

In a proper army they're on par with a corporal or subaltern.

[Denim]

Ah well ....never mind ....karma will level it out in the end.

 

One day the headlines might read :

 

The people refuse to promise an end to the deaths of punished generals.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Denim

[Thingamabob]

Disgusting. He should be dishonorably discharged, without delay.

[Denim]

1 minute ago, Thingamabob said:

Disgusting. He should be dishonorably discharged, without delay.

Given that this is Thailand , what odds would you give on that happening.

 

The worse they are , the higher their kudos amongst their peers , and the more rapid their promotion.

 

 

[billd766]

On 23/03/2018 at 3:26 PM, baboon said:

It's simply dreadful. God knows the abuse of young soldiers would be unconscionable enough if they were there of their own free will, but these lads are not. Conscription should be ended.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

"In the UK in November 1960 the last men entered service, as call-ups formally ended on 31 December 1960, and the last National Servicemen left the armed forces in May 1963.^"

 

I can still remember that quite a few of my instructors as a Boy Entrant in the RAF during 1960/61 were National Servicemen.

 

That however was 57 years ago.

 

IMHO Thailand does not need conscription but a well paid, well trained professional military of about the size of the UK armed forces. They could retire 90% of them and the military would get much better.

 

As an option here is a link to an FOI request from somebody in 2015.

 

It makes interseting reading though it is a bit outdated.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412939/PUBLIC_1425405075.pdf

 

[billd766]

13 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Could make the same comment about your idol and some approx. 100 young soldiers who suffocated to death in the South of Thailand.

 

Did your Idol take any action? Did he even acknowledge the deaths? NO and NO. 

 

Pathetic...

 

 

 

 

 

What hundred young soldiers were they?

 

Do you have a link to that?

[chama]

Odd that this would be said out loud but he deserves credit for telling the truth. He also added that the coral form of punishment would not be condoned but the lead line was so brutal it is getting all of the reaction. 

[sawadeeken]

3 minutes ago, chama said:

Odd that this would be said out loud but he deserves credit for telling the truth. He also added that the coral form of punishment would not be condoned but the lead line was so brutal it is getting all of the reaction. 

I don't think any 'credit is deserved' for telling this 'truth'....... He is admitting that he is aware of it and doesn't have any thoughts about changing it.............

[chama]

5 minutes ago, sawadeeken said:

I don't think any 'credit is deserved' for telling this 'truth'....... He is admitting that he is aware of it and doesn't have any thoughts about changing it.............

Perhaps...and you certainly have a valid point, but you already knew he had no plans to change it, although he did say it wouldn't be allowed. Not sure that point is entirely true, especially if the violator has money. But in my opinion, it is better that he is not just lying as is so often the case. By putting it out there he is potentially calling for the public to insist in change. Of course, this is only my opinion. 

[JAG]

27 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

What hundred young soldiers were they?

 

Do you have a link to that?

I think it is clear where Scorecard is coming from. He is referring to the 78 men who suffocated in grossly overcrowded army lorries after having been arrested at the Krue Sue Mosque. 

 

They died as a direct result of the army loading them on top of each other in those vehicles.

It was an act of vicious brutality straight out of the 3rd Reich playbook.

 

It happened during Thaksins time as Prime Minister, not of course that the army would have taken a blind bit of notice of anything he might have said!

 

Anyway, Scorecard is clearly using it in a clumsy, and frankly, what shall we say, disingenuous attempt to pin the blame for the armies callous treatment of conscripts on Thaksin, and at the same time "have a pop" at Eric.

 

Obsession plays funny tricks on people doesn't it...

Edited March 24, 2018 by JAG

[Denim]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

What hundred young soldiers were they?

 

Do you have a link to that?

 

No , of course he doesn't , because for some reason best known to himself and his limited knowledge of Thai history , he thinks that the victims stacked like logs in the back of trucks were soldiers ???

When in fact it was the soldiers who stacked the Muslim protesters in such a horrific fashion.

It did happen on Thaksins watch and Thaksin did not criticize them.

 

A few years later we had the Thai navy dragging Rohingha refugees out to sea and cutting them adrift without helping them in any way. Also ,beating those that beached on Thai territory and not giving them any assistance.

 

That was done on Abhisits watch and he also did nothing to help or criticize.

 

Because , the Thai army is a law unto itself and does whatever it wants regardless of who the government is.

[bandito]

22 hours ago, soalbundy said:

That's one bit of corruption that I like here, pay 30,000 Baht to avoid your son having anything to do with these morons.

 

Going rate, at this moment, is Baht 80,000- now.

That's if anybody in the Military wants to take you up on your offer but I doubt this.

Corruption, jailtime etc. etc.

Used to be easy but no more.

[chrisinth]

15 hours ago, Kimber said:

 

I call BULLSHIT. 

 

Recruit Basic Training Platoons numbered an even 30 Recruits in the early 70's at all 3 RTB's in existence during and just after the Vietnam war.   That 30 member Platoon strength continues to this day. 

 

If what you described had occurred it would have been reported to the Recruit Company Officer Commanding (OC) and by the recruits themselves, as many of the "Nashos" (National Servicemen) who were renowned for whistle blowing to their local Members of Parliament and their own families. 

 

By the late 60's early 70's the Australian Army was very aware of the effect of negative PR , and any SNCO (Sergeant) who had dealt with his Platoon as you described; would have been Court Martialed, not something a career Soldier would invite.

 

Since WW1 the Australian Military Regulations (AMR...now DFLMA ) in regard to discipline and punishment have been prescribed in detail, and woe betide any Officer, Warrant Officer or Sergeant who exceeds them. 

 

The Chaplain you mentioned, would have had a direct line of communication (still protocol to this day) with the Commanding Officer (CO) of the Recruit Battalion; and was/is under legal obligation to inform the CO of such heinous misconduct described in your account.  

 

Additionally the unit Medical Officer (MO) would have been made aware of the injuries inflicted (can you imagine the effect of a Baseball bat blow to the genitals ?), because the Recruits sustaining such a punishment would have been incapacitated enough to report on Sick Parade at the Regiment Aid Post (RAP) the next morning....providing they could still walk.   

Again the MO would have been under legal obligation to report such injuries to so many Men, to the unit CO; who would have ordered an immediate formal investigation.  

The phones in Canberra would have been running hot. 

 

Considering all of the above, will your reply claim a cover-up ?  

If so how ? 

 

When the Whitlam government came to power and called for submissions regarding Australian Defence Force (ADF) improprieties, why wasn't your case highlighted ? 

 

BTW I was a career Soldier 1972 to 2007 in the Australian Army, and your service was ? 

 

 

 

Well, I have to say that Australia (in the early 70's) was way ahead of the British Armed Forces at the time. But, to make it clear, I never witnessed any one-on-one (or many-on-one) assaults happen coming from the instructors, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. What I did see was, what I suppose would be called today, extensive physical and mental abuse during the training process. Can't speak for others but for me it never did any harm. It worked for me as it instilled discipline and teamwork (the absolute purpose of initial training) into an unruly Northern Irish teenager.

 

But in those days it didn't end at training. I have seen people mess up big-time and taken 'round the back' and dealt with. Generally that person would never make that mistake again and at the end of the day, a punch in the face hurts for a bit, but 14 days additional work, which would normally be given if going down the official route, hurts for 14 days. It was a different world back then, but, as stated before never did me any harm. I always thought that after 23 years it was the right time to get out; I had been offered my '1st 5th' at the time but decided not to take it. Seeing some of the little princes (and princesses) that were being deployed in my later years of service, and what their expectations were decided for me. "Sorry, the 'swimmer of the watch' isn't available to save the man overboard at the moment because he has just washed his hair" sort of summed it up for me.