Filing a complaint for unfair dismissal

[stud858]

3 hours ago, overherebc said:

It isn't the individual against the school.

It's the Labour office against the school.

I fear that the school will convince the labour office easily that the foreigner is not entitled to much. I wish though that justice prevails to the rule of law.

[blackcab]

52 minutes ago, stud858 said:

I fear that the school will convince the labour office easily that the foreigner is not entitled to much. I wish though that justice prevails to the rule of law.

 

You are completely wrong. I have managed a Thai company that dismissed an employee for gross misconduct.

 

We were absolutely savaged by the Labour Court. They awarded the employee 100 per cent of everything plus interest until we made full payment.

 

The Labour Court is pro employee, and they really do not care if the employee is Thai or non Thai.

[Letseng]

5 hours ago, stud858 said:

I hate to be a stickler, but I'm very interested to know what the outcome is.

I've got a feeling the school will win out. Those who have the most money and perceived power hold the upper hand.Please keep us updated and best of luck.

A friend's daughter one a case in labour court against one of the big private hospitals. It was no quick process.

[ericthai]

3 hours ago, stud858 said:

I fear that the school will convince the labour office easily that the foreigner is not entitled to much. I wish though that justice prevails to the rule of law.

Dont think so, the labor department has power and is on the employee's side. We have dealt with them in the past and lost each time to the employee. 

[stud858]

2 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

You are completely wrong. I have managed a Thai company that dismissed an employee for gross misconduct.

 

We were absolutely savaged by the Labour Court. They awarded the employee 100 per cent of everything plus interest until we made full payment.

 

The Labour Court is pro employee, and they really do not care if the employee is Thai or non Thai.

Was that the correct lawful decision by the court if it was Gross Misconduct? Or was the GM charge dismissed as an excuse to sack the employee unfairly? I thought benefits were withdrawn if the employee causes a serious problem.

 

 

[blackcab]

8 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Was that the correct lawful decision by the court if it was Gross Misconduct? Or was the GM charge dismissed as an excuse to sack the employee unfairly? I thought benefits were withdrawn if the employee causes a serious problem.

 

I was the manager who sacked the employee. Believe me, it was warranted and came after numerous documented disciplinaries, including for failure to follow written instructions; deliberately purchasing goods from unauthorised suppliers  (at a much higher cost); swearing at a line manager and threatening them with violence in public - and the list goes on.

 

The decision to fire the employee was sound. They were an awful employee and they really couldn't remain employed by the company. However the exact protocol as required by the Labour Court was not followed, hence we lost the case.

 

As I said, we got savaged. We didn't follow protocol and that's that. What the employee did or did not do had zero relevance.

[stud858]

8 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

I was the manager who sacked the employee. Believe me, it was warranted and came after numerous documented disciplinaries, including for failure to follow written instructions; deliberately purchasing goods from unauthorised suppliers  (at a much higher cost); swearing at a line manager and threatening them with violence in public - and the list goes on.

 

The decision to fire the employee was sound. They were an awful employee and they really couldn't remain employed by the company. However the exact protocol as required by the Labour Court was not followed, hence we lost the case.

 

As I said, we got savaged. We didn't follow protocol and that's that. What the employee did or did not do had zero relevance.

Well the OP has some hope going by experienced posters here. I am interested to know what happens.  My partner works for a company and she gets treated poorly. There may be a time for her to use advice from here. Fairness and peace to all.

[AGareth2]

On 4/4/2018 at 5:18 PM, overherebc said:

You must go to your local labour office.

Sign nothing at the school

Discuss nothing with the school.

Get your ducks in a row with the labour office first.

If you have a copy of your contract take that as well, they will pick out any illegal parts of it as well.

my school used a photocopy of my passport signature on a resignation form

and told the labour department they had lost the original

[overherebc]

30 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

my school used a photocopy of my passport signature on a resignation form

and told the labour department they had lost the original

I learned many years ago, maybe doesn't apply so much now with colour copy systems, sign everything with blue ink.

[Rhys]

Odd.. at some places, teachers are going out of their way to get fired, and the Thai administrators just say nothing and keep  the teacher(s) until the end of their contract...

 

[DavisH]

Did the OP work for a private or government school? I only know a couple of teachers from private schools who were awarded anything - that was due to the school not following a standard protocol and dismissed early. I know of noone who got any severance after their contract expired and not renewed. 

 

It's still worth for the OP to approach the Labour Court and report back what they say....but in most cases teachers never come back and report on TV as to the outcome. 

Section 86 from the Private School Act:

[overherebc]

23 hours ago, Letseng said:

A friend's daughter one a case in labour court against one of the big private hospitals. It was no quick process.

But, she won the case.

[Briggsy]

8 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

my school used a photocopy of my passport signature on a resignation form

and told the labour department they had lost the original

Yes, this.

 

This is the standard tactic by schools to defeat the employee's case and avoid severance pay.

 

Usually, in the many, many sheets you are told to sign to apply for the work permit is a resignation letter, undated, written in Thai. You are not allowed to read it, only sign here and here and here, 43 times. The resignation letter is kept and used to rebuff any claim.

[pearciderman]

The date on this post would suggest that you have not worked there for as long as you state.

 

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Posted April 22, 2017

I'm in the process of changing jobs. Passport (Australian) is almost full with 1 and a half pages left. Will this be enough for immigration to work with before I apply for a new work-permit? I plan to get a new passport while waiting for the new work-permit.  I'm currently on an extension of stay from my current job.

 

Thanks

[markusss]

40 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

The date on this post would suggest that you have not worked there for as long as you state.

 

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Posted April 22, 2017

I'm in the process of changing jobs. Passport (Australian) is almost full with 1 and a half pages left. Will this be enough for immigration to work with before I apply for a new work-permit? I plan to get a new passport while waiting for the new work-permit.  I'm currently on an extension of stay from my current job.

 

Thanks

Take note of 'I'm in the process of changing jobs'. This time last year I had another job offer that paid much more which I seriously considered. The offer fell through due to location & travel difficulties so I decided to stay with my current position at that time.

 

I worked two full years there as stated in the original post. 

[pearciderman]

10 minutes ago, markusss said:

Take note of 'I'm in the process of changing jobs'. This time last year I had another job offer that paid much more which I seriously considered.

 

I did take note of the word "process", that does not imply a job offer or considering a job, it means that you actually are changing jobs.

[markusss]

3 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

I did take note of the word "process", that does not imply a job offer or considering a job, it means that you actually are changing jobs.

And the process stated did not reach an outcome of changing jobs. Thanks

[overherebc]

19 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

my school used a photocopy of my passport signature on a resignation form

and told the labour department they had lost the original

Sign and 'date' everything. Keep copies.

[Mattd]

Regarding short term contracts, if the employer renews these contracts on a back to back basis, then the labour courts will consider this as unbroken employment.

It is a ploy that is often used by employers to TRY and circumnavigate the rules and the labour courts are only to well aware of this.

As people have advised, go to the main office for the Ministry of Labour, they have an office specifically for people in your situation and it doesn't matter whether you are Thai or Farang, in fact Farangs have a little more protection in that you could be entitled to repatriation.

13 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

How much would you stand to make best case scenario? 

 

Divide that by the number of hours you’re going to put into this and you’ll probably be making a wage of 75 baht per hour or so. 

 

Pride gets you two things as the old saying goes: dead and broke. 

This is not correct, most of the time the labour cases involving Farangs are settled quite quickly, as they understand the situation regarding immigration etc.

considering there is 3 months salary at stake, then you would have to put more hours in than those 3 months of work to make it not worthwhile!

 

OP - Do NOT sign anything from the school.

[pearciderman]

5 minutes ago, Mattd said:

in fact Farangs have a little more protection in that you could be entitled to repatriation.

 

Do you have a link to this statement ? I only ask as it is not mentioned on any of the below pages and I have never heard of it, (or to put it bluntly, your talking crap).

 

http://www.interactivethailand.com/labour/wrongful-dismissal-in-thailand/

 

https://www.ajarn.com/ajarn-guests/articles/the-thai-labour-law

 

https://www.ajarn.com/ajarn-guests/articles/teacher-compensation

 

https://duensingkippen.com/thailandbusinesslawblog/?p=128

[utalkin2me]

3 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Regarding short term contracts, if the employer renews these contracts on a back to back basis, then the labour courts will consider this as unbroken employment.

It is a ploy that is often used by employers to TRY and circumnavigate the rules and the labour courts are only to well aware of this.

As people have advised, go to the main office for the Ministry of Labour, they have an office specifically for people in your situation and it doesn't matter whether you are Thai or Farang, in fact Farangs have a little more protection in that you could be entitled to repatriation.

This is not correct, most of the time the labour cases involving Farangs are settled quite quickly, as they understand the situation regarding immigration etc.

considering there is 3 months salary at stake, then you would have to put more hours in than those 3 months of work to make it not worthwhile!

 

OP - Do NOT sign anything from the school.

He is going’s to be spending a ton of time on this process. There are multiple trips required to these offices, taxi fares and many other possible expenses. Not to mention at any moment the entire process could fall out of his favor and he could lose the case completely, or worse be a subject of some sort of revenge.

 Maybe you are correct but your comment assumes his time is worth a Thai salary. I assume he’s making 30k baht a month here I could be wrong. Sure, if you have nothing to do, will for sure be staying jobless in Thailand I can see going through with it. To me though, his time would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

Just staing my opinion, he’s better off forgetting this and moving forward with his life instead of going after a possible three months of Thai level salary. 

[Mattd]

7 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

Do you have a link to this statement ?

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

[Mattd]

Just now, utalkin2me said:

He is going’s to be spending a ton of time on this process. There are multiple trips required to these offices, taxi fares and many other possible expenses. Not to mention at any moment the entire process could fall out of his favor and he could lose the case completely, or worse be a subject of some sort of revenge.

 Maybe you are correct but your comment assumes his time is worth a Thai salary. I assume he’s making 30k baht a month here I could be wrong. Sure, if you have nothing to do, will for sure be staying jobless in Thailand I can see going through with it. To me though, his time would be better spent elsewhere. 

 

Just staing my opinion, he’s better off forgetting this and moving forward with his life instead of going after a possible three months of Thai level salary. 

It is of course going to depend on the salary amount, however, the chances of losing are almost nil, very very few cases are won by the employer if it goes to court.

I know of quite a few people who have won settlements that run in to the multiple millions of Baht, granted they were on high salaries.

[pearciderman]

7 minutes ago, Mattd said:

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/downloads/pdf/WORKING_OF_ALIEN_ACT_2551_DOE.pdf

 

No mention in that Act of getting repatriation expenses paid as a result of a labour courts decision, it only mentions the Alien Repatriation Fund, which is to do with immigration and totally different.

[VocalNeal]

On 4/5/2018 at 11:22 PM, blackcab said:

The decision to fire the employee was sound.

But maybe you didn't give three written warnings?

[Mattd]

3 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

No mention in that Act of getting repatriation expenses paid as a result of a labour courts decision, it only mentions the Alien Repatriation Fund, which is to do with immigration and totally different.

If an employee was employed from outside Thailand then the employer is liable to repatriate the employee back to their country of origin, the labour courts will order this if requested to by the employee. If I get a little more time, then I will find the applicable rule, basically it is the same for a Thai employed overseas, they must be repatriated to Thailand if terminated, it works both ways.

[VocalNeal]

Markusss,

 

If you are younger than 60 and you still have time on your contract then pop down to the Labour Office.  I believe you are entitled to 3 month's notice or 3 months pay in lieu. 

Only from TV but schools seem to be bullies in this regard and it seems to happen a lot. 

The labour dept. will be on your side regardless of your nationality. Just ask them for advice. They may tell you to return to your employer and tell them "the labour dept. says". You will get a better result doing it the Thai way than your way! 

 

 

[pearciderman]

19 minutes ago, Mattd said:

If an employee was employed from outside Thailand then the employer is liable to repatriate the employee back to their country of origin, the labour courts will order this if requested to by the employee. If I get a little more time, then I will find the applicable rule, basically it is the same for a Thai employed overseas, they must be repatriated to Thailand if terminated, it works both ways.

 

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to see this. You must have some special keyword you use for your Google search, because I can't find the above law mentioned for any country in the world.

[Mattd]

21 minutes ago, pearciderman said:

 

I am on the edge of my seat waiting to see this

As I said, I am a little busy with other stuff right now, however, I do know of people who worked in the same company as I did before, who have been repatriated at the company's expense.

To be fair, this may have been due to the nature of the employment contract etc. 

The way I understand it is that if the company employing you paid for your move to Thailand, then they must reverse this and pay for your repatriation back to your original place where you were prior to that employment.

A quick search bring this: http://www.tilleke.com/resources/thailand-new-obligations-employers-and-employees-under-reformed-law-foreign-workers

IMO The labour Protection Act Clause 13 (3) is quite clear on repatriation. http://www.labour.go.th/en/attachments/article/18/Labour_Protection_Act_BE2541.pdf

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

But maybe you didn't give three written warnings?

 

The employee had over 6 written warnings in the previous 12 months. Our mistake was that they did not not receive 3 written warnings for the same type of behaviour. I was quite amazed when it was explained to me, but an employee can have 2 x written warnings for sleeping on the job, plus 2 x written warnings for giving too much change to customers, plus another 2 x written warnings for violent behaviour, etc - on and on. As long as they don't get 3 written warnings in 12 months for the same type of behaviour they will win at labour court.

 

The exception to this would be if the company had a very clear company handbook which specifically set out what is considered to be gross misconduct and the employee acknowledged those conditions as part of their employment at the beginning of their contract.