Seven Pattaya hotel operators - four foreigners - taken in by police for not having licences

[newnative]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

That really is a matter of perspective and I can quite understand owners objections. 

The first week in February, high season?, I rented a condo in Hua Hin for 3 days through Airbnb. There must have been around 200 condos in the complex and I doubt if I saw more that around 25 people in the time we were there. The majority were 2 large Asian families, possibly Korean, rest were a mixture of Europeans that appeared to be on holiday. The complex had a bar which was shut up and obviously been shut up for some time. There was also a gym, and the same few faces appeared a few times a day.

Big problem for the condo owners, what do they do, object to the holiday makers and see the revenue disappear and possibly face much higher management fees.

Strikes me that there is a case for some complexes getting a temporary licence for a certain amount of short term lets. It should be borne in mind that some people, even on a short term basis, enjoy the facilities of a residential property.

     Sorry, not buying any of your arguments. Residences are not hotels for  transient tourists.  Residents really do not want you there--illegally--for '3 days'.   3 days?  You belong in a hotel.  Yes, you certainly might enjoy 'the facilities of a residential property', there for the enjoyment of the residents and paid for, respected, and cared for by the residents, but, once again, residents do not want short-term, illegal, in and out, unrespectful tourists in their 'residential property'.  Get the name?  What you, yourself, called it?  RESIDENTIAL property.  Meaning HOME.  Meaning NOT a tourist hangout. 

[KittenKong]

The first week in February, high season?, I rented a condo in Hua Hin for 3 days through Airbnb. There must have been around 200 condos in the complex and I doubt if I saw more that around 25 people in the time we were there. The majority were 2 large Asian families, possibly Korean, rest were a mixture of Europeans that appeared to be on holiday. The complex had a bar which was shut up and obviously been shut up for some time. There was also a gym, and the same few faces appeared a few times a day.

Big problem for the condo owners, what do they do, object to the holiday makers and see the revenue disappear and possibly face much higher management fees.

Hua Hin in known to be fairly quiet, particularly during the week. Places like Jomtien and Pattaya are much busier, and some large buildings can have several hundred transients in them at any one time.

Management fees do not increase simply because there are more people in a building, and all co-owners should be paying their dues all the time anyway regardless of whether they use their unit or not. If they cant afford to pay them then they can sell up and leave: they should not have bought a unit in the first place if they could not afford the common fees.

That said, having many transients in a building does increase costs significantly, and can lead to high repair bills for wear and tear on infrastructure (pool, elevators, doors etc.). All co-owners would be required to contribute to those costs, with absentee co-owners who rarely use their unit paying every bit as much as a co-owner who rents out his units to a dozen different people every week. This is very unsatisfactory and very unfair. An acceptable solution for common fees might be to charge a very large supplement (several hundred percent) on rental units, but even that would not solve the nuisance problem.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, Jeffkp said:

Short term renters do nothing for the condos. They do not pay maintenance fees. They are a drain on the condo resources. Also, what you did was illegal.

You are entitled to your opinion but you should be a little bit careful before claiming some one broke the law. I made a perfectly legal contract with an international company to rent a property that they were advertising, if the condo owner did break the rules somewhere along the line that is not my concern.

The condo was owned by a Thai and I think he owned several in the complex. We had no contact with the owner, it was all done through the condo management including the cleaning. I would be fairly certain the condo management were not working on behalf of the owner for free.

Revenue does not have to be in the form of management fees. It is fairly common practice for developers to let out unsold apartments, of course there are those that cannot see the consequences and would prefer they remained empty.

[newnative]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are entitled to your opinion but you should be a little bit careful before claiming some one broke the law. I made a perfectly legal contract with an international company to rent a property that they were advertising, if the condo owner did break the rules somewhere along the line that is not my concern.

The condo was owned by a Thai and I think he owned several in the complex. We had no contact with the owner, it was all done through the condo management including the cleaning. I would be fairly certain the condo management were not working on behalf of the owner for free.

Revenue does not have to be in the form of management fees. It is fairly common practice for developers to let out unsold apartments, of course there are those that cannot see the consequences and would prefer they remained empty.

    The contract you entered into was to purchase an illegal product--in this case a short-term condo rental, which is prohibited in Thailand.  I doubt a contract to purchase illegal goods would be considered "perfectly legal".  You could just as easily say, "I made a perfectly legal contract with an international company to buy an illegal baby that they were advertising, if the birth mother did break the rules somewhere along the line that is not my concern."   Obviously, buying an illegal baby is more serious than buying an illegal condo rental but the law, in my book, is still being broken in both cases.  

[Basil B]

 

On 27/04/2018 at 3:25 AM, webfact said:

1. Central Pattaya Residence on Sai 2. Mr Rajan Malhotra, 55, Indian, arrested.

2. E-Outfitting Boutique Hotel on Sai 2. Xue Dong, 31 arrested.

3. Boutique City Hotel. Chaiyan Mongkhonkulasat, 62, from Nonthaburi arrested.

4. Le Viman Resort. Patrice Guerry, 53, from France arrested.

5. Cocco Resort in South Pattaya. Sander Wolterring, 42, from Holland arrested.

6. Jomtien Thani Hotel on Jomtien Beach. Ms Sujinan Prangsurang, 49, arrested.

7. Atlantis Condo ( Building B )in Jomtien. Ms Daengkhamkhun, 47, arrested.

Jomtien Thani, that's a pretty big hotel, how can you over look an operators licence???

[jerry921]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

    The contract you entered into was to purchase an illegal product--in this case a short-term condo rental, which is prohibited in Thailand.  I doubt a contract to purchase illegal goods would be considered "perfectly legal".  You could just as easily say, "I made a perfectly legal contract with an international company to buy an illegal baby that they were advertising, if the birth mother did break the rules somewhere along the line that is not my concern."   Obviously, buying an illegal baby is more serious than buying an illegal condo rental but the law, in my book, is still being broken in both cases.  

Agree. You'd need a Thai judge to say for sure under Thai law, but probably the contract was void because it was not enforceable under the law because it required an illegal act. The bold words are western terms of art that you can research if you like.

[lapamita]

22 hours ago, newnative said:

    Nobody is being prevented from renting his or her condo--just not short-term.   For many good and important reasons, already spelled out many times in this forum, short-term rentals should be left to hotels, guesthouses, inns, and the like. 

Yes ,for 1-2-3 days, but all this condos,mainly in Beachareas are build out for letting out, without letting they have no value. longterm tenants are nearly not aviable.

BUt come back.. the trend is going on for years, that many countrys legalized it,under new laws.

 

you willnot stop a trend like uber,airbnb, sharingplattforms and so on...

 

the last 3 years in europe i rent only apartments for my holiday trips, and very very pleased  with it, due to many reason.

 

for exmaplein prague , beautiful room ,80qm on the danube,bestarea, for 65 euro. People in prag complaining too, bcs their is a shortage f homes for longterm let ( other than in all beachresorts worldwide) .. but listen owners renting out shortterm  why ???  easy   65 euro , maybe set net after coasts 50 euro  by 50% ocupation rate , thats 1250 euro per month. not a lot.  for longterm lenants it will be 1000-1200 p month  no diffrent of incomming. But like in all big citys, there is hudge demand for long term letings but at cheap price , for ex. in prague 200-500 euro. thats why due to oversupply inthe high end sector, people renting st. cant complain . this propertys coasting to buy 400.000 euro, and its not possible to let for 500 , even the st rental brings a low return based on cpaital expandand.  more work and trouble

 

controll and not follow new trends, would unfortunaly leed , the condo prices in beachareas to collaps . and would make the downturn far bigger. who  the hell, would buy something,with no chance of letting, and no chance of capital gains,whats regular in the beachareas, bcs due to oversupply and a lack of maintenance.

 

in mai i go back to penang, before always only 2-3 days ,just stay in hotel, since garb and  airbnb,... i stay for 10 days, beautiful apartment on the yachting port,and no heachdache more with taxis............. so whats better 2-3 days for must, or 10 days for enjoy

 

trends cannot be reversed

Edited April 30, 2018 by lapamita

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, jerry921 said:

Agree. You'd need a Thai judge to say for sure under Thai law, but probably the contract was void because it was not enforceable under the law because it required an illegal act. The bold words are western terms of art that you can research if you like.

Barrack room lawyers, as we used to call them, are in abundance  but at the end of the day no one has all the facts or in a position to pre judge the outcome. I had a booking with Airbnb for Sheffield, cancelled and fully refunded because the owner had failed to comply with something, they did not tell me what. They do check up on the owners.

With hundreds of properties on the books for Thailand it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that their legal department has not carried out due diligence.

The legality is a side issue, the point I made was to do with holiday use. I have had a timeshare apartment for over 35 years and have been to many developments in the UK and abroad, even here on Koh Samui. The developments that had turned unsold units over to holiday companies had far superior facilities to those that were owner only. I am not saying that the better facilities did not come without some penalty but as I said right in the beginning it is all about perception.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, newnative said:

    The contract you entered into was to purchase an illegal product--in this case a short-term condo rental, which is prohibited in Thailand.  I doubt a contract to purchase illegal goods would be considered "perfectly legal".  You could just as easily say, "I made a perfectly legal contract with an international company to buy an illegal baby that they were advertising, if the birth mother did break the rules somewhere along the line that is not my concern."   Obviously, buying an illegal baby is more serious than buying an illegal condo rental but the law, in my book, is still being broken in both cases.  

Typical response where someone is obviously prepared to comment on something they do not know. You should have read their terms first.

[newnative]

46 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Typical response where someone is obviously prepared to comment on something they do not know. You should have read their terms first.

      Typical deflection and their 'terms' aren't really relevant.  (Buying the illegal product from Airbnb or a local agent--still illegal.)  Bottom line, did you buy an illegal product, in this case an illegal short-term condo rental in Thailand?   Answer, yes.  Are you the only one buying illegal short-term condo rentals in Thailand?   No, but that doesn't make it legal.  

[Wake Up]

On 4/27/2018 at 1:17 PM, johng said:

Yes that's correct  for a few days you need a hotel licence..

just one more thing in the long list bringing "happiness" back to "all" Thais. 

And happiness to this non Thai as I don’t want my neighbors renting their condos via Air BNB to tourists. So I am happy you can’t run a hotel without a license.  ?

[Rimmer]

Topic is about:

 

Seven Pattaya hotel operators - four foreigners - taken in by police for not having licences

[KittenKong]

At least one of the "hotels" mentioned was in fact a condo building not a hotel: Atlantis. Many other condo buildings here are also being let as hotel rooms, without licences of course, which to me makes them also relevant to the topic.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, newnative said:

      Typical deflection and their 'terms' aren't really relevant.  (Buying the illegal product from Airbnb or a local agent--still illegal.)  Bottom line, did you buy an illegal product, in this case an illegal short-term condo rental in Thailand?   Answer, yes.  Are you the only one buying illegal short-term condo rentals in Thailand?   No, but that doesn't make it legal.  

Bar stool lawyer BS. Of course their terms are relevant, what contract is not based on terms. Airbnb do not sell anything so there cannot be any "illegal product". Their only obligation is if necessary to provide a refund. If there is any breach of local regulations, it is between the owner and Airbnb, not the renter, their only potential penalty is inconvenience.

 

These Terms of Service ("Terms") constitute a legally binding agreement ("Agreement") between you and Airbnb (as defined below) governing your access to and use of the Airbnb website, including any subdomains thereof, and any other websites through which Airbnb makes its services available (collectively, "Site"), our mobile, tablet and other smart device applications, and application program interfaces (collectively, "Application") and all associated services (collectively, "Airbnb Services"). The Site, Application and Airbnb Services together are hereinafter collectively referred to as the “Airbnb Platform”. Our Host Guarantee Terms, Guest Refund Policy, Nondiscrimination Policy and other Policies applicable to your use of the Airbnb Platform are incorporated by reference into this Agreement.

When these Terms mention “Airbnb,” “we,” “us,” or “our,” it refers to the Airbnb company you are contracting with. Your contracting entity will generally be determined based on your Country of Residence. Your “Country of Residence” is the jurisdiction associated with your Airbnb Account as determined by either your express selection or by Airbnb’s assessment of your residence using various data attributes associated with your Airbnb Account.

• If your Country of Residence is the United States, you are contracting with Airbnb, Inc., 888 Brannan Street, 4th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103, United States.
• If your Country of Residence is outside of the United States, the People’s Republic of China (which for purposes of these Terms does not include Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) (hereinafter “China”) and Japan, you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland UC (“Airbnb Ireland”), The Watermarque Building, South Lotts Road, Ringsend, Dublin 4, Ireland.
• If your Country of Residence is China, you are contracting with Airbnb Internet (Beijing) Co., Ltd. (“Airbnb China”) except where you book a Host Service (as defined below) or when you create a Listing located outside of China, in which case you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland for that transaction.
• If your Country of Residence is Japan, you are contracting with Airbnb Global Services Limited ("Airbnb GSL"), 25-28 North Wall Quay, Dublin 1, D01 H104, Ireland, except where you book a Host Service (as defined below) or when you create a Listing located outside of Japan, in which case you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland for that transaction. Additionally, if your contracting entity is Airbnb GSL, you will nevertheless contract with Airbnb Ireland for all bookings confirmed prior to June 13, 2018 at 3:00 pm UTC.
•  

As I said earlier be careful about claiming  someone has broken the law, I have to assume your bar stool lawyer experience does not stretch to the defamation laws but ignorance is no excuse..

[jerry921]

Signing a contract that is void because it is not enforceable under the law is not necessarily an illegal act.

That's my barroom barrister considered opinion.

 

If they wanted to, the authorities could pass a law that says that occupying or renting an illegally-rented condo is illegal, but AFAIK they haven't, yet.

 

As a parallel point, it was the hotel operators that got arrested, not the guests (except for the orgy ones, but that's a different kettle of fish).

[newnative]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Bar stool lawyer BS. Of course their terms are relevant, what contract is not based on terms. Airbnb do not sell anything so there cannot be any "illegal product". Their only obligation is if necessary to provide a refund. If there is any breach of local regulations, it is between the owner and Airbnb, not the renter, their only potential penalty is inconvenience.

 

These Terms of Service ("Terms") constitute a legally binding agreement ("Agreement") between you and Airbnb (as defined below) governing your access to and use of the Airbnb website, including any subdomains thereof, and any other websites through which Airbnb makes its services available (collectively, "Site"), our mobile, tablet and other smart device applications, and application program interfaces (collectively, "Application") and all associated services (collectively, "Airbnb Services"). The Site, Application and Airbnb Services together are hereinafter collectively referred to as the “Airbnb Platform”. Our Host Guarantee Terms, Guest Refund Policy, Nondiscrimination Policy and other Policies applicable to your use of the Airbnb Platform are incorporated by reference into this Agreement.

When these Terms mention “Airbnb,” “we,” “us,” or “our,” it refers to the Airbnb company you are contracting with. Your contracting entity will generally be determined based on your Country of Residence. Your “Country of Residence” is the jurisdiction associated with your Airbnb Account as determined by either your express selection or by Airbnb’s assessment of your residence using various data attributes associated with your Airbnb Account.

• If your Country of Residence is the United States, you are contracting with Airbnb, Inc., 888 Brannan Street, 4th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103, United States.
• If your Country of Residence is outside of the United States, the People’s Republic of China (which for purposes of these Terms does not include Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) (hereinafter “China”) and Japan, you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland UC (“Airbnb Ireland”), The Watermarque Building, South Lotts Road, Ringsend, Dublin 4, Ireland.
• If your Country of Residence is China, you are contracting with Airbnb Internet (Beijing) Co., Ltd. (“Airbnb China”) except where you book a Host Service (as defined below) or when you create a Listing located outside of China, in which case you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland for that transaction.
• If your Country of Residence is Japan, you are contracting with Airbnb Global Services Limited ("Airbnb GSL"), 25-28 North Wall Quay, Dublin 1, D01 H104, Ireland, except where you book a Host Service (as defined below) or when you create a Listing located outside of Japan, in which case you are contracting with Airbnb Ireland for that transaction. Additionally, if your contracting entity is Airbnb GSL, you will nevertheless contract with Airbnb Ireland for all bookings confirmed prior to June 13, 2018 at 3:00 pm UTC.
•  

As I said earlier be careful about claiming  someone has broken the law, I have to assume your bar stool lawyer experience does not stretch to the defamation laws but ignorance is no excuse..

     You're correct that Airbnb did not sell you the illegal condo rental, but, rather, served as an internet bulletin board for you to find the rental.  That's why I say that Airbnb's 'terms' are not important or relevant.  As I said before, you could have also purchased the illegal condo rental from a local agent in Thailand. 

    

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, newnative said:

     You're correct that Airbnb did not sell you the illegal condo rental, but, rather, served as an internet bulletin board for you to find the rental.  That's why I say that Airbnb's 'terms' are not important or relevant.  As I said before, you could have also purchased the illegal condo rental from a local agent in Thailand. 

    

These are your words. "The contract you entered into was to purchase an illegal product"

 

As there was no contract to purchase anything you are wrong and it is against the forum rules to make unsubstantiated claims of criminal activity against other members.

[Ron19]

A troll post has been removed.

[JustKnut]

On ‎29‎.‎04‎.‎2018 at 5:36 AM, Jeffkp said:

Short term renters do nothing for the condos. They do not pay maintenance fees. They are a drain on the condo resources. Also, what you did was illegal.

Yes and you don`t buy a condo to have hotelguest running around in the property. would be cheeper to rent a hotelrom if you didnt mind the hotelguest.

Is it to much to ask to follow the rules, you don`t need to changes the rules to sute you every time.

there is a reason the Hotels are there. there are some rules about safety and Comfort etc that they need to follow and a condo resort etc don`t need to follow.

Seems like some in this forum Works for AirBnB when they post her.