Thailand tax ID to satisfy foreign bank TIN request

[NanLaew]

As more foreign banks get roped into FBAR, FATCA and other tax regime compliance, more of them are requesting a TIN from their existing account holders. Is it possible to get a tax identification number from the Thai revenue department if one is retired here, not working, no income paid in Thailand or otherwise not liable for Thai taxes?

 

Thanks!

NL

[OJAS]

I got a letter + TIN form from my UK bank in December 2016, and reported that I was not a tax resident of either the UK or Thailand. Perhaps not surprisingly, that tactic didn't work and, in December 2017 I received another letter & form from them stating that I had to be a tax resident of somewhere or other and re-iterating the request for a TIN. So this time I owned up to be a tax resident of Thailand but stated that I still paid tax to HMRC. And in the TIN section I stated my 10-digit UTR number on the grounds that this was more concrete proof of my paying tax to HMRC than my NI number.

 

That all said, that approach might not work for you if you don't have a UTR number (which you probably don't unless you submit annual tax returns to HMRC), but you could always try on your NI number instead (assuming you have one, of course). Like you I'm not subject to any direct LOS taxation, and am loathe to go to all the trouble of obtaining a TIN number from the RD here solely in order to satisfy some UK/USA bureaucractic requirement. But I wait with bated breath to hear what more my UK bank might have to say about this approach in December 2018!

[SooKee]

I did the same. Simply told them I couldn't magically get the authorities here to create a TIN for me when I have no tax obligations to them just so it can satisfy their bureaucratic needs. Now they've gone away.

Sent using Tapatalk

[asiaexpat]

A tax id number can be obtained from the Thailand Revenue Department by applying at your local tax office even if retired. I have a tax id number even though I am on a retirement extension. It is the same number as my Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID number. I do file for return of withholding from my savings accounts. 

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, asiaexpat said:

A tax id number can be obtained from the Thailand Revenue Department by applying at your local tax office even if retired. I have a tax id number even though I am on a retirement extension. It is the same number as my Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID number. I do file for return of withholding from my savings accounts. 

Excellent. I already have the yellow book and matching ID card so I will use that number for the TIN request in lieu of actually finding where my provincial tax office is and formally applying for it.

 

Thanks!

NL

[NanLaew]

58 minutes ago, OJAS said:

I got a letter + TIN form from my UK bank in December 2016, and reported that I was not a tax resident of either the UK or Thailand. Perhaps not surprisingly, that tactic didn't work and, in December 2017 I received another letter & form from them stating that I had to be a tax resident of somewhere or other and re-iterating the request for a TIN. So this time I owned up to be a tax resident of Thailand but stated that I still paid tax to HMRC. And in the TIN section I stated my 10-digit UTR number on the grounds that this was more concrete proof of my paying tax to HMRC than my NI number.

 

That all said, that approach might not work for you if you don't have a UTR number (which you probably don't unless you submit annual tax returns to HMRC), but you could always try on your NI number instead (assuming you have one, of course). Like you I'm not subject to any direct LOS taxation, and am loathe to go to all the trouble of obtaining a TIN number from the RD here solely in order to satisfy some UK/USA bureaucractic requirement. But I wait with bated breath to hear what more my UK bank might have to say about this approach in December 2018!

I hear ya. I have been having the 'who are you and where do you live' malarkey from my UK offshore bank since 2014, never mind that I have been an account holder with them since 1980!

 

Always in fear that they will arbitrarily close the account while I am in deepest, darkest Africa or wherever, I want to nail this one down. OK, there's plenty other banks but 3 years ago, I found out how tough it is to open a new account when one is a bit of an international gypsy. Even in Thailand, opening a new account at the same branch of the same bank I opened my current account at maybe 20 years ago is arbitrarily labeled 'cannot'.

 

Where's the bloody manager?!

[orientalist]

22 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Always in fear that they will arbitrarily close the account while I am in deepest, darkest Africa or wherever, I want to nail this one down.

 

In case that happens, I have opened a Monzo Bank account (requires proof of a UK address) and a TransferWise multi-currency "Borderless Account" (using Thai address). Things are changing.

[OJAS]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:49 AM, NanLaew said:

I hear ya. I have been having the 'who are you and where do you live' malarkey from my UK offshore bank since 2014, never mind that I have been an account holder with them since 1980!

 

Always in fear that they will arbitrarily close the account while I am in deepest, darkest Africa or wherever, I want to nail this one down. OK, there's plenty other banks but 3 years ago, I found out how tough it is to open a new account when one is a bit of an international gypsy. Even in Thailand, opening a new account at the same branch of the same bank I opened my current account at maybe 20 years ago is arbitrarily labeled 'cannot'.

 

Where's the bloody manager?!

In fairness to the banks, though, I think that this particular requirement to gather TIN-related info from their non-resident account holders was foisted on them by HMRC in their infinite wisdom. But your fears are definitely not misplaced IMHO - as I see things this additional burden is more likely than not to make banks even less favourably disposed towards allowing non-residents to keep existing longstanding accounts with them than they are at present.

[Straight8]

I'd more interested to follow this topic and see what others have to say on the matter, as its starting to filter through here in Oz.

[arithai12]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:36 AM, asiaexpat said:

A tax id number can be obtained from the Thailand Revenue Department by applying at your local tax office even if retired. I have a tax id number even though I am on a retirement extension. It is the same number as my Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID number. I do file for return of withholding from my savings accounts. 

 

On 4/29/2018 at 11:41 AM, NanLaew said:

Excellent. I already have the yellow book and matching ID card so I will use that number for the TIN request in lieu of actually finding where my provincial tax office is and formally applying for it.

 

Thanks!

NL

I have YB(2014), Pink ID (2016), Tax ID (2011), and they are three different numbers.

[asiaexpat]

53 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

 

I have YB(2014), Pink ID (2016), Tax ID (2011), and they are three different numbers.

If this is true you have a real issue. Your ID card number is derived from your Yellow TB number (your number not the TB number.) The district office would have to have made a big mistake when they issued the Pink ID card. Tax number could be different if you got it first, but should be changed to ID number.

[NanLaew]

58 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

 

I have YB(2014), Pink ID (2016), Tax ID (2011), and they are three different numbers.

I got the YB in 2007 and the pink ID card maybe a couple of years ago, both from the same amphur. The 13-digit numbers are the same (on page 2 of the YB). I had to present the YB when applying for the ID card. Did you need to show the YB when you got the ID card or were they issued at the same amphur? I had to get a WP for a short job last year and that had a totally different 13 digit number which makes sense as it was issued for work in another province and 'linked' to my other passport.

[NanLaew]

58 minutes ago, arithai12 said:

 

I have YB(2014), Pink ID (2016), Tax ID (2011), and they are three different numbers.

I got the YB in 2007 and the pink ID card maybe a couple of years ago, both from the same amphur. The 13-digit numbers are the same (on page 2 of the YB). I had to present the YB when applying for the ID card. Did you need to show the YB when you got the ID card or were they issued at the same amphur? I had to get a WP for a short job last year and that had a totally different 13 digit number which makes sense as it was issued for work in another province and 'linked' to my other passport.

[andre47]

I answered to the request's from my bank's an follows:

 

1. I am tax resident of Thailand. (because I live here more than 165 day's per year)

2. I sent them a copy of my Certificate of residence. (to proof my address)

3. I stated that I don't have a TIN because I don't have to pay tax in Thailand at the moment.

 

A few bank's were not 100% happy with my answers, but later they accepted it. 

 

One bank did not accepted it but it is not important because Thailand does not belong to the countries which signed the FATCA yet.

 

And what could happen, if your bank does not accept your answer? They will just report your account according FBAR.

 

I don't have to pay any tax here in Thailand. Therefor it is no problem for me if they will report my account. 

[sometimewoodworker]

On 29/04/2018 at 9:46 AM, NanLaew said:

As more foreign banks get roped into FBAR, FATCA and other tax regime compliance, more of them are requesting a TIN from their existing account holders. Is it possible to get a tax identification number from the Thai revenue department if one is retired here, not working, no income paid in Thailand or otherwise not liable for Thai taxes?

 

Thanks!

NL

Yes, I just got mine yesterday, take a Thai speaker with you, no yellow book yet, so no pink card.

 

FWIW if you have an interest paying account in a bank you are a tax payer and you can reclaim the tax if you are below the taxation threshold.

Edited May 1, 2018 by sometimewoodworker

[worgeordie]

I wonder if these Russian Oligarchs and other money launderers from

around the World,get asked for any TIN,or any other numbers ,when they

transfer vast amounts of money to buy property in London,

regards worgeordie

[Srikcir]

7 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

I wonder if these Russian Oligarchs and other money launderers from

around the World,get asked for any TIN,or any other numbers ,when they

transfer vast amounts of money to buy property in London,

regards worgeordie

I doubt it. Putin probably already has access to complete financial records on his oligarchs.

He just needs the name of their survivors (hint).

[Pdavies99]

As to the request for a TIN, all you have to write in the form that as a foreign resident on a retired basis, that Thailand do not request you are registered for taxation end of story! They never ask for further details, however if you received taxed interest on a Thai Bank, then as a retiree you could get a TIN and reclaim the tax element on that Thai interest, it is fairly easy to do.

Paul

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Pdavies99

[Baerboxer]

On 4/29/2018 at 11:36 AM, asiaexpat said:

A tax id number can be obtained from the Thailand Revenue Department by applying at your local tax office even if retired. I have a tax id number even though I am on a retirement extension. It is the same number as my Yellow Tabien Baan and Pink ID number. I do file for return of withholding from my savings accounts. 

 

Do you have bank interest here; file a tax return and receive a refund?

 

That's why many expats have a TIN. 

 

Very easy to go to the local tax office, register and file your return. I find them incredibly helpful and very efficient. Actually much better than the automated people less systems the UK now employs.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, Pdavies99 said:

As to the request for a TIN, all you have to write in the form that as a foreign resident on a retired basis, that Thailand do not request you are registered for taxation end of story! They never ask for further details, however if you received taxed interest on a Thai Bank, then as a retiree you could get a TIN and reclaim the tax element on that Thai interest, it is fairly easy to do.

Paul

 

 

Banks have to be able to show that they've checked your tax residency. Obviously they like a TIN from the country you are claiming residency in. If not then usually they explain why you don't have or can't get one.

 

I have one, Mrs BB not. She doesn't currently work and the tax office said they'll only issue then to a Thai citizen who works or needs to file a return for other income. They actually joked and asked if she needed it for some foreign bank!

I simply wrote that on the form and no problem from the bank.

 

However, if the bank isn't convinced of your tax residency then they will submit details of your interest to HMRC. If you file a tax return to HMRC (UK income) or they know where you're not UK resident for tax then they'll ignore it. It's the local regulator putting pressure on the banks to show they check.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Pdavies99 said:

As to the request for a TIN, all you have to write in the form that as a foreign resident on a retired basis, that Thailand do not request you are registered for taxation end of story! They never ask for further details, however if you received taxed interest on a Thai Bank, then as a retiree you could get a TIN and reclaim the tax element on that Thai interest, it is fairly easy to do.

Paul

 

That didn't work for a guy I work with. He told Natwest exactly the same as above and they are persisting. Now he's jumping through the 'proof of foreign domicile' hoop with them. I have already done that bit so now I will be sending them my 13-digit Thai ID card number as I am now on their 'what's your TIN?' roundabout.

 

These banks are working towards being totally compliant with tax and domicile regulation. Driven initially by the US's FACTA, FUBAR or whatever it's named (where 90% of any global financial transactions are handily routed through), entities like the UK's HMCR have also tagged on their own and EU banking requirements. The banks have to comply or risk being severely hampered in doing international business.

 

Unfortunately, it appears that some UK banks are sub-contracting third-party agencies or temp staff to do this data collation. This is based on my interactions with RBSI and Nat West over the past 3 years where shortly after each of their requests were fulfilled, following up by email resulted in 'user unknown' auto-responses. This leads me to believe that it wasn't handled by an in-house, full-time employed team but by a 'temp' with a bank email and mailing address. The fact that the data I sent to RBSI was reported as being unseen by Natwest 18 months later suggests that this is how it's being mishandled.

 

The basic premise is if you are alive, you must be paying taxes somewhere. Personally, I find that air and water is all I need to survive and not paying taxes that, as an international gypsy, I have no say in what they get spent on.

 

...that and Jack Daniels.

[NanLaew]

56 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Banks have to be able to show that they've checked your tax residency. Obviously they like a TIN from the country you are claiming residency in. If not then usually they explain why you don't have or can't get one.

 

I have one, Mrs BB not. She doesn't currently work and the tax office said they'll only issue then to a Thai citizen who works or needs to file a return for other income. They actually joked and asked if she needed it for some foreign bank!

I simply wrote that on the form and no problem from the bank.

 

However, if the bank isn't convinced of your tax residency then they will submit details of your interest to HMRC. If you file a tax return to HMRC (UK income) or they know where you're not UK resident for tax then they'll ignore it. It's the local regulator putting pressure on the banks to show they check.

A good summation of the why's and wherefore's. Thanks.

[Pib]

6 hours ago, arithai12 said:

 

I have YB(2014), Pink ID (2016), Tax ID (2011), and they are three different numbers.

Ditto for me....my Yellow Book, Pink ID, and Tax ID are different numbers.

 

Although a person's Pink ID number should match their ID number on the Yellow Book, the Yellow Book number is different and at the "top of the page" where the ID number is kinda in the "middle of the page."  Summary: two numbers on the Yellow Book....the book number and your ID number.   On my Yellow Book the book number is a 11 digit number and the ID Number is a 13 digit number...just like the 13 digit number on the Pink ID card.

 

And for my tax ID number it's a 13 digit number completely different from my ID number on the Yellow Book/Pink ID card and different from the Yellow Book number.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Pib

[Pib]

Here's is a snapshot of a Yellow Book translation to English...helps to figure out the different numbers seen in the book like the Yellow Book number in the upper right hand corner,  Yellow Book person's ID number down in the middle part, etc.

 

[NanLaew]

22 hours ago, Pib said:

Ditto for me....my Yellow Book, Pink ID, and Tax ID are different numbers.

 

Although a person's Pink ID number should match their ID number on the Yellow Book, the Yellow Book number is different and at the "top of the page" where the ID number is kinda in the "middle of the page."  Summary: two numbers on the Yellow Book....the book number and your ID number.   On my Yellow Book the book number is a 11 digit number and the ID Number is a 13 digit number...just like the 13 digit number on the Pink ID card.

 

And for my tax ID number it's a 13 digit number completely different from my ID number on the Yellow Book/Pink ID card and different from the Yellow Book number.

 

 

I guess it is just like some transport offices use your yellow book number for your driver number on the Thai DL and others insist on using your passport number instead. In Udon, despite having the yellow book, they used the passport number. I had to get my Thai DL reissued with my new passport number as the finance company wanted all of the forms of ID they requested (YB, passport and Thai DL) to have the same numbers and/or address. So much easier if they had used the YB number for the DL then both documents would have matching number and address. Maybe having nothing 'linked' numerically to the passport number was their issue?

[Pib]

Yea, on my Thai drivers license issued here in Bangkok although it has its own number they used my passport number as the ID reference on the license.  When getting the license renewed I showed them my Yellow Book but since my previous Thai 5 year license had used my passport number they wanted to use passport number again which was a new passport number since I had renewed it since my last license..  Next time when I renew I have the Pink ID card to give them also.    Whatever makes them happy.