Europe moves to safeguard interests in Iran after U.S. pullout

[billd766]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, the UN does not govern the US.

and if the US has become a warmonger it is partly because of this abdication of congressional power

 

Equally fortunately or not the USA does NOT govern the rest of the world, and yes the USA under Trump is becoming a warmonger.

[tonbridgebrit]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your point of view, the UN does not govern the US.

and if the US has become a warmonger it is partly because of this abdication of congressional power

Well, IF the UN was to govern America, instead of the White House right now, surely, that would be a good thing. The White House is causing America to be isolated from the rest of the world.

Planet earth needs a stable America, America is the anchor on planet's earth trade and capitalism. We need a USA that will carry on this role. And those who want to isolate America, they should be booted out of the White House. The enemies within, they are the real problem.

We want America back, we want the Obama policies back.

[sirineou]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Equally fortunately or not the USA does NOT govern the rest of the world, and yes the USA under Trump is becoming a warmonger.

If I might offer the following correction . And yes the USA under Trump is becoming  more of a warmonger.

if you have a chance read the by now dated Gore Vidal Book  Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace: How We Got to Be So Hated

also his I Julian though unrelated was an excellent read.

[sirineou]

19 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Well, IF the UN was to govern America, instead of the White House right now, surely, that would be a good thing. The White House is causing America to be isolated from the rest of the world.

Planet earth needs a stable America, America is the anchor on planet's earth trade and capitalism. We need a USA that will carry on this role. And those who want to isolate America, they should be booted out of the White House. The enemies within, they are the real problem.

We want America back, we want the Obama policies back.

Though a useful instrument, I an afraid the way the UN is structured it is not capable of governing it's self never mind the US or world. 

 

I used to be an internationalist, until the following epiphany .

My friend owned and operated a pet supplies shop, in it he had a tropical fish section containing several fish tanks, all with individual water filters. Cleaning and maintaining the filters was a chore.

My engineering mind  prompted my to offer a solution. 

So on paper i designed a system where the water was moved from tank to tank via a syphoning system , removed by a large filter for cleaning and returned to the first tank.

When I offered the solution to my friend, he said the following. 

A nice system and it would certainly save time and cost, but if one tank got deceased the sickness will spread through all the tanks and all the fish will die. 

 Same applies to different countries, though an inefficient system, it does prevent political sickness from becoming worldwide 

Edited May 12, 2018 by sirineou

[tonbridgebrit]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/french-fm-slams-unacceptable-us-sanctions-iran-003448366.html


A quote from the article "France's economy minister Bruno Le Maire urged European nations Friday to defend themselves against US sanctions targeting foreign companies that trade with Iran, as the rift between Washington and its allies deepens."

And also "Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has meanwhile branded the sanctions "unacceptable", in some of the most forceful criticism yet from a key European ally."


Washington, shut up and stop causing America to drift away from Europe.
 

[tonbridgebrit]

Please note "as the rift between Washington and its allies deepens". None of us wants to see this, and that includes everybody in America.

[khunken]

As an European I would be very careful & hesitant about any joint European reaction to the USA. I'd love to see it happen but there are numerous recent history clues that make it unlikely.

 

First is how long the UK, France & Germany will continue to trade with Iran if Trump threatens sanctions against companies that are involved and possibly ramps up general trade issues just like he's doing with China. Not very long ago European companies (banks especially) had to dole out billions for the so-called sanctions-busting trade with the same Iran.

 

Second is that the UK has for quite some time blindly supported the US in whatever warmongering exercise it has embarked on. Also Macron is no Jaques Chirac in opposing that same type of warmongering. Only Merkel has the bottle to stand up to Trump but she can't do it on her own.

 

I'm sure that Iran has a contingency plan ready to go nuclear as soon as it becomes clear that trade with European companies is being blocked by the US. If they go that way, then Saudi Arabia will initiate it's own nuclear weapons program and Turkey could well be a candidate too. It's a scary scenario but Trump has no idea of forward thinking - mostly backward unfortunately.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, khunken said:

As an European I would be very careful & hesitant about any joint European reaction to the USA. I'd love to see it happen but there are numerous recent history clues that make it unlikely.

 

First is how long the UK, France & Germany will continue to trade with Iran if Trump threatens sanctions against companies that are involved and possibly ramps up general trade issues just like he's doing with China. Not very long ago European companies (banks especially) had to dole out billions for the so-called sanctions-busting trade with the same Iran.

 

Second is that the UK has for quite some time blindly supported the US in whatever warmongering exercise it has embarked on. Also Macron is no Jaques Chirac in opposing that same type of warmongering. Only Merkel has the bottle to stand up to Trump but she can't do it on her own.

 

I'm sure that Iran has a contingency plan ready to go nuclear as soon as it becomes clear that trade with European companies is being blocked by the US. If they go that way, then Saudi Arabia will initiate it's own nuclear weapons program and Turkey could well be a candidate too. It's a scary scenario but Trump has no idea of forward thinking - mostly backward unfortunately.

 Not to go far of topic but,This might be a cautionary tale against Brexit. 

Remember the "Divide and conquer" edict 

Edited May 12, 2018 by sirineou

[mikebike]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

As much as I dislike Trump and disagree with his decision to withdraw from the agreement.Lets understand something. There is no treaty. treaties are voted and ratified by congress , this agreement was never ratified by Congress and if understand this correctly was in affect under executive decision ,as such the Trump administration is not under any obligation to continue it.  As ill advised as this might be.

 

There are certainly differences between what is considered a treaty under international law and USA constitutional law. Under international law the "agreement" is a valid treaty not requiring ratification.

 

https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/2/issue/5/international-agreements-and-us-law

[tonbridgebrit]

7 minutes ago, khunken said:

As an European I would be very careful & hesitant about any joint European reaction to the USA. I'd love to see it happen but there are numerous recent history clues that make it unlikely.

 

First is how long the UK, France & Germany will continue to trade with Iran if Trump threatens sanctions against companies that are involved and possibly ramps up general trade issues just like he's doing with China. Not very long ago European companies (banks especially) had to dole out billions for the so-called sanctions-busting trade with the same Iran.

 

Second is that the UK has for quite some time blindly supported the US in whatever warmongering exercise it has embarked on. Also Macron is no Jaques Chirac in opposing that same type of warmongering. Only Merkel has the bottle to stand up to Trump but she can't do it on her own.

 

I'm sure that Iran has a contingency plan ready to go nuclear as soon as it becomes clear that trade with European companies is being blocked by the US. If they go that way, then Saudi Arabia will initiate it's own nuclear weapons program and Turkey could well be a candidate too. It's a scary scenario but Trump has no idea of forward thinking - mostly backward unfortunately.

I reckon France and Germany really are going to put up whatever sanctions against America if Trump puts sanctions on European companies. France and Germany reckon that America needs Europe more than Europe needs America.

About the UK blindly supporting whatever war-mongering being done by Washington. Yes, this has been going on for decades, but I think it's going to change, and lots of people in Britain hate this blind support. Theresa May has a very slim majorty in parliament, and the Opposition (led by Jeremy Corbyn) are far less likely to back Washington's war-mongering. In Britain, Conservative or Labour, Brexit or Remain, lots of people simply don't back British support for Washington's war-mongering.

[sirineou]

5 minutes ago, mikebike said:

There are certainly differences between what is considered a treaty under international law and USA constitutional law. Under international law the "agreement" is a valid treaty not requiring ratification.

 

https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/2/issue/5/international-agreements-and-us-law

Yes but the "agreement" has to be entered into by the responsible entity of said country.

Any country entering into  an agreement signed by , lets say (to carry this to an absurd extreme) by the dog catcher  should be entered into at risk of peril .

[IAMHERE]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Is it OK with you that Isreal is attacking Syria with the tacit support of the USA? Isreal is a country in the Middle East who has nuclear weapons and are prepared to use them. BTW where do you think the technology to build those weapons came from?

Germany? German Jewish scientists that immigrated after world war two would be my guess as to where the technology came from. Similar to Werner Von Braun building the USA missiles.

 

[ravip]

The crux of the matter is the filthy lucre involved.

Who doesn't love it? And that's the root of all evil.

 

[stevenl]

54 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

Germany? German Jewish scientists that immigrated after world war two would be my guess as to where the technology came from. Similar to Werner Von Braun building the USA missiles.

 

Far from the same. Persecuted people running and going to their promised land is not the same as buying people with a promise of saving them from trial.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, IAMHERE said:

Germany? German Jewish scientists that immigrated after world war two would be my guess as to where the technology came from. Similar to Werner Von Braun building the USA missiles.

 

it is widely accepted that Israel got the technology from France

a simple google search will produce many reputable returns on the subject.

[Morch]

13 hours ago, Somtamnication said:

LOL. Absolutely they should protect their investments. The yanks going rogue does not give them the right to affect their allies. Let Boeing lose; who gives a ......

 

This authoritarian "leader" has no right to screw up other countries, only his own. 

 

As much as posters (including myself) aren't supportive of Trump's policies, the "right" bit is, IMO, inaccurate. Countries being allies covers certain areas, not all - it does not convey a total unity of interests. Trump's actions and policies may be seen as wrong, but regardless of their wisdom (or lack of) "right" doesn't come into it. Doubt there's any obligation embedded in the relations between the US and European countries which forbids "affecting allies".

 

As for "screwing other countries" - sadly or not, that's a large part of what's international relations are about, going back way before Trump, or even the US.

 

 

[Morch]

9 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Sadly the next question will be

"Do we accept the US as a dependable ally of Europe?"

 

Define "dependable" and what the "ally" bit covers. I'd say the pertinent question is do we take the French Minister's words seriously....

[Morch]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

In which case the EU should think about applying sanctions to the USA.

 

The damage that Trump has done to the USA and the world in 18 months will take decades to repair.

 

Wonder if there's clear, objective data on the expected relative impact of hypothetical sanctions applied by the US and the EU (w/wo the UK). If it does come to it, the diplomatic fallout is another matter, and perhaps harder to assess. Putin should be pleased. The EU managing to keep a unified front on this is somewhat dubious.

 

I'm more optimistic with regard to the Trump presidency damages repair work forecast. But as pointed out above, that doesn't address the issue of administrations getting into the habit of bypassing proper legislation.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Morch

[Morch]

5 hours ago, mercman24 said:

looks like TRUMP is becoming a world dictator now, threatening eu countries with sanctions just because they do not agree with him and why not should these countries try to safeguard companies who deal with Iran, and have big investments, its only natural.

 

How does applying sanctions makes Trump into a "world dictator"? Countries and governments routinely use diplomatic, economic and military clout to get objectives. If it's alright for European countries to safeguard their interests (or rather, affiliated companies and firms), why is it wrong for the US to safeguard it's own interests? (regardless if one sees Trump's policies as beneficial to the US). 

[Srikcir]

15 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"The extent to which we can keep this deal alive ... is something we need to discuss with Iran," said Merkel, who earlier spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin on the issue.

Trump may have forgotten or never understood that the nuclear deal was signed also by Russia and China. So while this article focuses on Europe moving to safeguard its investments in Iran and facing sanctions from Trump, Russia and China will be equally committed to investments in Iran if it holds to the nuclear agreement. And they both have an opportunity to fill a power vacuum vacated by the US in future relations with Iran and possible eclipse any political influence by European nations lacking support of the US powerhouse.

For example, recently Russia vetoed a resolution, proposed by the U.K. and backed by the United States, that charged Tehran with violating an arms embargo on Yemen. Russia is now Iran’s most important and powerful ally.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/russia-and-iran-deepen-ties-to-challenge-trump-and-the-united-states

Iran is set to expand in coming years as China rolls out its “One Belt, One Road” project.

“China is dominating Iran,” said Mehdi Taghavi, an economics professor at Allameh Tabataba’i University in Tehran, adding that the “Iranian authorities do not see any drawbacks to being dependent on China. Together, we are moving ahead.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/world/middleeast/iran-china-business-ties.html

Thus far Trump has quickly warned Europe of US retaliation if they and their companies engage with Iran after Trumo's withdrawal from the nuclear deal. Yet, Trump says little or nothing regarding retaliation against Russia and China. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Yes, Washington has become a war-monger, it's them bad people in the White House who are influencing Trump, they're the ones who are the war-mongers.

 

"...it's them bad people in the White House who are influencing Trump..."

 

Right....could you name any such "bad people"? As is such who weren't appointed by Trump, replacing more moderate voices. Or perhaps you missed Trump's statements on the Iran Deal prior to becoming president?

[sawadee1947]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Yes, Washington has become a war-monger, it's them bad people in the White House who are influencing Trump, they're the ones who are the war-mongers.

......and Trump is innocent?????? 

[bristolboy]

14 hours ago, JAG said:

Iran have chosen Airbus over Boeing as the plane maker to supply their new fleet of aircraft?

 

Of course the Trump administration will apply sanctions to Airbus...

Just one tiny, tiny problem with your observation: Iran had deals with both Boeing and Airbus.

Boeing may lose $20 billion in aircraft deals as Trump to pull US out of Iran nuclear pact

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/08/iran-deal-fallout-boeing-may-lose-20-billion-in-aircraft-deals.html

[Morch]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/european-leaders-vow-stand-trump-bullying-save-iran-deal-160742050.html

Right, so Washington is a bully, and basically, Europe is standing up to this bullying. We've all been to school, and we all know about the bully in the school play-ground. People who are bullying, they hate it when people fight back. Yes, bullies are usually cowards, bullies rely on fear. But as soon as we fight back, bullies will back of.

Yes Washington, you want a fight, you've got one. You will be sorry if you start a trade war. The rest of planet earth is not going to tolerate your b.s.

 

Quite a different sermon out of you when it comes to the PRC bullying neighbors, oh well...

As for the "rest of the planet" and the nonsensical chest thumping...Good luck with that.

[bristolboy]

8 hours ago, oilinki said:

This is becoming interesting. If USA is going to put sanctions on companies, like Airbus, which sell goods to Iran, then EU must put similar sanctions to USA companies.

 

This is two former allies fighting each other with sanctions. Really damaging to the relationship between EU and USA for years to come.

 

Trump is truly on his way to destroy all the western relationships. 

The problem with that is that the EU runs a big trade surplus with the USA. What they are planning on doing is passing some laws to protect their industries from US sanctions. They've done that in the past.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Please note "as the rift between Washington and its allies deepens". None of us wants to see this, and that includes everybody in America.

 

More nonsense. There are posters who are all in favor of such rifts deepening. And there are obviously Americans which are supportive of such. Can't see the Chinese or the Russian leaderships shedding tears over this. Same goes for Iran's leaders.

 

[Srikcir]

Trump is uniting the people he opposes.

"U.S. withdrawal from nuclear deal unites Iran, China, Russia"

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Far from the same. Persecuted people running and going to their promised land is not the same as buying people with a promise of saving them from trial.

I don't think there were too many German Jewish scientists who emigrated directly from Germany, or, for that matter, from Europe to Israel. Those who got out in time mostly went to the USA. I don't recall any historical data about them being persecuted there.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

I reckon France and Germany really are going to put up whatever sanctions against America if Trump puts sanctions on European companies. France and Germany reckon that America needs Europe more than Europe needs America.

About the UK blindly supporting whatever war-mongering being done by Washington. Yes, this has been going on for decades, but I think it's going to change, and lots of people in Britain hate this blind support. Theresa May has a very slim majorty in parliament, and the Opposition (led by Jeremy Corbyn) are far less likely to back Washington's war-mongering. In Britain, Conservative or Labour, Brexit or Remain, lots of people simply don't back British support for Washington's war-mongering.

 

IMHO the USA under Trump has achieved more in 18 months that the Russians EVER did during the cold war period.

 

Trump, but not necessarily the USA is quickly running out of friends and allies and while HE is threatening sanctions on all and sundry he is trying to take on the rest of the world. A recipe for disaster for and many other countries and especially for the USA.

2 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

Germany? German Jewish scientists that immigrated after world war two would be my guess as to where the technology came from. Similar to Werner Von Braun building the USA missiles.

 

 

How about the USA? How many German Jewish scientists were left alive after the war? Where would they have got the uranium from? Who supplied Israel with weapons over the the last 50 or so years?

Edited May 12, 2018 by billd766

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

There are certainly differences between what is considered a treaty under international law and USA constitutional law. Under international law the "agreement" is a valid treaty not requiring ratification.

 

https://www.asil.org/insights/volume/2/issue/5/international-agreements-and-us-law

Actually, according to that document, if a President signs an agreement without the backing of a majority of the Senate, his endorsement would only be recognized for agreements that are limited in scope that touch on his status of commander-in-chief. Like an armistice agreement. Broad agreements like this probably wouldn't make the cut. Had the Senate given him majority approval that would be different.