Being a digital nomad / working online is legal in Thailand

[FritsSikkink]

12 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

You need to inform the Ministry of Labor and Department of Immigration that their legal departments are wrong. 

It clearly states on a tourist visa: work prohibited.

It does say in the labor law that a foreigner needs a work permit.

News on 10 May said they would be removed from the country, news on 11 May they could stay. What could have happened in that day to change the outcome?

Feel free to get a tax ID and start paying tax on the money you earned while working here, be sure to advertise a lot here too to get more customers.

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

It clearly states on a tourist visa: work prohibited.

It does say in the labor law that a foreigner needs a work permit.

News on 10 May said they would be removed from the country, news on 11 May they could stay. What could have happened in that day to change the outcome?

Feel free to get a tax ID and start paying tax on the money you earned while working here, be sure to advertise a lot here too to get more customers.

 

Thankfully the MoL and DoI actually understand the law...

 

A hint....

 

Working remotely while in Thailand isn't legally considered as working/employment in Thailand.

 

Thankfully the MoL and DoI legal department actually know the laws.

 

Quote

"Feel free to get a tax ID and start paying tax on the money you earned while working here, 

 

There's absolutely no problem or issues with getting a TIN and paying tax on income earned remotely, or from property rental, or whatever.

 

There's no need for a work permit to get a TIN (Thai Tax number) and pay tax on your income in Thailand. 

 

 

You appear to be completely clueless.

[Happy Grumpy]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

It clearly states on a tourist visa: work prohibited.

Incorrect.

 

It doesn't state that.

 

Never mind 'clearly'.

 

 

It states 'Employment Prohibited'.

 

You really don't know what you're on about, eh.

 

Working remotely while in Thailand (purely online for a non-Thai company or company in Thailand) is not legally considered as 'Employment in Thailand'.

 

 

Maybe get legal advice from places other than bar-stools. 

 

 

 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

It clearly states on a tourist visa: work prohibited.

It does say in the labor law that a foreigner needs a work permit.

Working remotely for a company outside of Thailand is not considered "work" by Thai law, that's what all this is about

[Happy Grumpy]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

Working remotely for a company outside of Thailand is not considered "work" by Thai law, that's what all this is about

 

Never mind that it doesn't even say 'Work Prohibited'.

 

Some posters are just clueless. 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Working remotely for a company outside of Thailand is not considered "work" by Thai law, that's what all this is about

Show me the part in the labor law which states that

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Incorrect.

 

It doesn't state that.

 

Never mind 'clearly'.

 

 

It states 'Employment Prohibited'.

 

You really don't know what you're on about, eh.

 

Working remotely while in Thailand (purely online for a non-Thai company or company in Thailand) is not legally considered as 'Employment in Thailand'.

 

 

Maybe get legal advice from places other than bar-stools. 

 

 

 

Working while in Thailand needs a work permit says the labor law, if you stay here more than 180 days a year, you need to pay tax here too. I don't sit at the bar, I work here with a proper visa and work permit. It is you who refers to a very old article about an immigration officer saying something about labor law.

[Happy Grumpy]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

Working while in Thailand needs a work permit says the labor law, if you stay here more than 180 days a year, you need to pay tax here too.

Working remotely is not legally considered as working in Thailand. It is not legally considered as being employed in Thailand and thus doesn't come under the Alien Worker's Act. And yes, pay the tax on it in Thailand if here for more than 180 days in a year.

 

There is no problem getting a TIN (you may need to google what that is) and paying Thai income tax from employment without a Work Permit..... because remote employment is not legally considered as employment/working in Thailand.

 

 

Thankfully the MoL and DoI legal departments actually understand the law. 

 

 

[JLCrab]

I think the real answer as to whether the DoL or IMM legal folks think working online for a non-Thai company while on a tourist visa is legal or not is: They don't care. 

The real question for them is: How do you keep getting a tourist visa?

Edited May 15, 2018 by JLCrab

[jackdd]

30 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Show me the part in the labor law which states that

How can i show something that doesn't exist? You show us the law which says working remotely is considered work and needs a visa and work permit.

The police in Ubon (link in first post) and the police in Chiang Mai (posted later by Happy Grumpy) were obviously not able to find this (because it most likely doesn't exist), or the foreigners would have been deported.

Edited May 15, 2018 by jackdd

[Happy Grumpy]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

How can i show something that doesn't exist? You show us the law which says working remotely is considered work and needs a visa and work permit.

The police in Ubon (link in first post) and the police in Chiang Mai (posted later by Happy Grumpy) were obviously not able to find this (because it most likely doesn't exist), or the foreigners would have been deported.

Of course...

 

 

But you tell that to the know-nothings.

 

Probably angry because they have to jump through hoops and go to work everyday. 

[Mattd]

Seems to be some very naive people on here to be honest.

Face it, regardless of whatever has been said by anybody in MOE or LD, the plain fact is that it will come down to the situation and whoever is dealing with it at the time, if they deem this as work, then that is what it will be.

The person dealing with it may say it is fine also.

No way of knowing either way until it happens and no way of changing it once it happens, no amount of saying that it is legal or not by the offender will change the situation.

This is Thailand, that is how things work here, similar to when the police pull you up for speeding or similar, then you end up paying a fine or bribe 99% of the time, even if you have not done what you were accused of.

The 'rules' are made up as they go along and change hourly and for each official, precedent means nothing.

 

Carry on what you are doing, just keep it low profile, never assume you are safe.

[Happy Grumpy]

42 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Seems to be some very naive people on here to be honest.

Face it, regardless of whatever has been said by anybody in MOE or LD, the plain fact is that it will come down to the situation and whoever is dealing with it at the time, if they deem this as work, then that is what it will be.

The person dealing with it may say it is fine also.

No way of knowing either way until it happens and no way of changing it once it happens, no amount of saying that it is legal or not by the offender will change the situation.

This is Thailand, that is how things work here, similar to when the police pull you up for speeding or similar, then you end up paying a fine or bribe 99% of the time, even if you have not done what you were accused of.

The 'rules' are made up as they go along and change hourly and for each official, precedent means nothing.

 

Carry on what you are doing, just keep it low profile, never assume you are safe.

 

Very naive post.

 

Firstly, they are directed to your lawyer.

 

As nothing illegal has taken place, you will be released with (or possibly without) a smile.

 

 

If you're some naive guy that just arrived and doesn't have a lawyer, they might try anything on, to do with anything, crossing the road or not flushing the toilet properly, perhaps.

[Bangkok Barry]

Interesting how Happy Grumpy has such a bee in his bonnet about this. I wonder why. He repeatedly accuses others of being clueless (me, with 25 years in Thailand) or naive (above) yet fails to acknowledge that every officer in a uniform in Thailand is able to bend the rules to suit themselves. Then suggesting that a lawyer, even if he isn't corrupt or incompetent, can fix things up is naive in the extreme. If a uniform wants to shake you down, they can and they will. And if they can't make one charge stick they'll find another. Has anyone ever heard or read of a foreigner, anyone, winning a case against a government official?

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Interesting how Happy Grumpy has such a bee in his bonnet about this. I wonder why. He repeatedly accuses others of being clueless (me, with 25 years in Thailand) or naive (above) yet fails to acknowledge that every officer in a uniform in Thailand is able to bend the rules to suit themselves. Then suggesting that a lawyer, even if he isn't corrupt or incompetent, can fix things up is naive in the extreme. If a uniform wants to shake you down, they can and they will. And if they can't make one charge stick they'll find another. Has anyone ever heard or read of a foreigner, anyone, winning a case against a government official?

They probably scrape a bit of money together with their online "businesses" otherwise they would be able to setup a proper business, use a proper visa and pay tax. 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

Seems to be some very naive people on here to be honest.

Face it, regardless of whatever has been said by anybody in MOE or LD, the plain fact is that it will come down to the situation and whoever is dealing with it at the time, if they deem this as work, then that is what it will be.

The person dealing with it may say it is fine also.

No way of knowing either way until it happens and no way of changing it once it happens, no amount of saying that it is legal or not by the offender will change the situation.

This is Thailand, that is how things work here, similar to when the police pull you up for speeding or similar, then you end up paying a fine or bribe 99% of the time, even if you have not done what you were accused of.

The 'rules' are made up as they go along and change hourly and for each official, precedent means nothing.

 

Carry on what you are doing, just keep it low profile, never assume you are safe.

It is not nearly as haphazard as that; it's not like dropping a cigarette end in Sukhumvit Road.  And Immigration are not like the local cop out to earn his monthly bonus.

Edited May 15, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Interesting how Happy Grumpy has such a bee in his bonnet about this. I wonder why. He repeatedly accuses others of being clueless (me, with 25 years in Thailand) or naive (above) yet fails to acknowledge that every officer in a uniform in Thailand is able to bend the rules to suit themselves. Then suggesting that a lawyer, even if he isn't corrupt or incompetent, can fix things up is naive in the extreme. If a uniform wants to shake you down, they can and they will. And if they can't make one charge stick they'll find another. Has anyone ever heard or read of a foreigner, anyone, winning a case against a government official?

 

We're not talking about the police though, and online working appears to be much different in the way it is treated than mainstream working.  You are right in some respects, eg, use a vaper and you could be stitched up for tax evasion.

[jackdd]

35 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

They probably scrape a bit of money together with their online "businesses" otherwise they would be able to setup a proper business, use a proper visa and pay tax. 

Most people have a proper business and pay tax. The laws in Thailand just make the country unattractive as business location for people who can have their business everywhere.

[FritsSikkink]

19 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Most people have a proper business and pay tax. The laws in Thailand just make the country unattractive as business location for people who can have their business everywhere.

Goodbye

[mommysboy]

44 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

They probably scrape a bit of money together with their online "businesses" otherwise they would be able to setup a proper business, use a proper visa and pay tax. 

That would likely be a highly inappropriate business model for a digital nomad who is usually a sole trader and often a nomad as the name suggests.  Further I do not believe there is an appropriate work permit, and immigration themselves might advise that no work permit is in fact needed. 

[Happy Grumpy]

Funny how the posters that don't understand Thai labor law, also don't know about the Thai revenue department, and are shouting about tax, tax, tax! 

 

 

If your income is from Thai real estate, stocks, remote employment.... whatever income and employment that you have that doesn't come under the Alien Worker's Act, just go down to the local office and get your TIN, and pay your tax.... there's no requirement to have a Work Permit to get your Thai tax number and pay tax on your Thai income..... because.... they understand Thai law. That remote workers, stock traders, etc. don't come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

Guess this is all a bit of an education for them.

 

 

You're welcome. 

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Funny how the posters that don't understand Thai labor law, also don't know about the Thai revenue department, and are shouting about tax, tax, tax! 

 

 

If your income is from Thai real estate, stocks, remote employment.... whatever income and employment that you have that doesn't come under the Alien Worker's Act, just go down to the local office and get your TIN, and pay your tax.... there's no requirement to have a Work Permit to get your Thai tax number and pay tax on your Thai income..... because.... they understand Thai law. That remote workers, stock traders, etc. don't come under the Alien Worker's Act.

 

Guess this is all a bit of an education for them.

 

 

You're welcome. 

Probably the people are so smart and only bring their savings from last year or the years before to Thailand, and this is not taxable in Thailand.

Edited May 15, 2018 by jackdd

[cyberfarang]

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

[mommysboy]

49 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

That does not appear to be true at the current time.  However, someone on multiple tourist visas will likely be informed they are no longer welcome unless they obtain another kind of visa.  But this is a visa issue and not a work related issue.

Edited May 15, 2018 by mommysboy

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

Your statement does not seem to have any foundation for the distinction you are drawing.  When they talk about working in Thailand being there is no time-limit where if you work 1 hour in Thailand it is ok, but 3 hours is not.   There is also no distinction on whether it is the first tourist visa or your 4th, a retirement visa or a PE visa.  Government policy is usually based on consistency, so if it is illegal to work in Thailand (where the work is offshore, there are no premises locally, and you are not doing anything requiring a physical presence here) - it is illegal in all cases.  The actual language of the law is pretty inclusive (which means when they want to apply it -- it covers pretty much everything you could possibly think of) - the only thing that differs is what and how they chose to enforce it... which right now seems to be based on protecting the local labour market... which basically excludes anything for any company with premises in Thailand, anything that requires a local presence (i.e. export), and anything that is otherwise illegal in Thailand.  However, at any time they could change the interpretation of what they chose to enforce.  

[cyberfarang]

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

[bkkcanuck8]

11 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

You are making no sense.  Every visa has a term.  Every visa is issued independently (i.e. not renewed, not extended, you go through the same process for each of them).  A Tourist visa forbids you from working in Thailand period - there are no conditions attached to it.  If the interpretation is going to be the same for the first, second, third or more.  Thailand currently has no cap on the number you can get in a row or for a year.  You are applying your own bias into it to state exceptions that do not exist.

Edited May 15, 2018 by bkkcanuck8

[mommysboy]

20 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Foreigners that visit Thailand on holiday and still work online, are not breaking any laws providing they are only working for the duration of the holiday or tourist visa.

 

It`s only those that are in Thailand for the longer term or on other types of visas that are breaking the law by working online if or working based from Thailand even if their companies are based abroad.

 

The main point is that in consideration of the typical digital nomad, his/her work is not currently treated as working in Thailand provided what is being done is on a small scale and not the concern of Thailand, and thus whatever visa is being used is irrelevant, and a work permit is not required.

 

Typical examples might be online teaching to offshore students, clerical jobs on Upwork, copywriting, graphic design, web site design, etc.

 

 

 

 

[JLCrab]

5 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

<snip>  Thailand currently has no cap on the number you can get in a row or for a year.  You are applying your own bias into it to state exceptions that do not exist.

Well that's the rub, I guess -- as long as MoFA embassies and consulates will issue an endless stream of back-to-back tourist visas for persons using tourist visas to live long-term in Thailand, the Immigration and Labour folks are saying:

 

Then why would you expect us to be concerned about what they might do once they get here?

[balo]

I am one of the few members here that admitted several times I am a digital nomad . And I have been since 2011. 

 

When I first arrived I came on tourist visas and travelled back to my home country when needed. Now I am on retirement visa , since I am over 50 .    

 

I still do some online work to my home country , from my laptop , at home. Nothing fancy , the income I earn are paid into my Norwegian bank account. I pay taxes in Norway , not Thailand. 

 

This should not be so hard to understand , but for some ignorant posters here I always have to defend myself.  You know who you are. 

 

I contribute to the Thai economy by living here most of the year , with a few trips to Europe in between . 

 

As a digital nomad you decide yourself where you want to live , even if your business is in your home country .  

 

Everyone under the age of 40 understands that , and some older folks like me , the digital world we were born into .  

 

There's nothing Thailand can do about that , except cut the internet line if they want to get rid of us. Then we will choose another country . 

 

And I suggest you look up how many co-working spaces there are in Bangkok .  On my last count over 100 .  All legal . All full of foreigners doing remote work. 

 

Bangkok co-working space