jackdd Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 I just stumbled over this news: Chinese people were working online on a tourist visa and police said they didn't do anything illegal. So we can finally conclude that being a digital nomad / working online with a tourist visa (if income is generated in another country) is currently legal by Thai law and there is no reason to hide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungstib Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 I was once told that if I made a phone call or sent an e-mail it could be interpreted as work. But I was in the tour business which the Thais are very keen to control. I think personal interpretation by the officer involved changes from office to office. Maybe stock trading is not seen as a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, jackdd said: Chinese people were working online on a tourist visa and police said they didn't do anything illegal. Yup. Working remotely/working online for a non-Thai company or company not in Thailand doesn't come under the Alien Employment Act. Doing it on a Tourist Visa is perfectly legal (it isn't legally classed as employment) and no work permit is needed. I'd imagine that for teachers, teaching remotely to say, Chinese students through online Chinese companies is far preferable to going through the legal hoops required of working on-site for a Thai school. No commuting, no dealing with Thais, no sweating. Though if staying here longer-term get a visa for your stay - Ed Visa and learn Thai too, or if married or have a child, or are retired, get a Non-Imm. If you want some company and a social scene, just go to one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of co-working spaces set up for remote workers. https://www.coworker.com/thailand Rock up with your Tourist Visa, pay for the day, then do your online teaching or other remote work completely legally with others doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Honestly, no it is too much of an assumption to declare it legal. It could be construed illegal by strict definition of Thai law. It may be deemed unlawful. It could be perfectly legal. Or Thai authorities may deem it as of no concern to Thai security- presumably because it is not. Put it this way, if this lot couldn't get brought to book, then I doubt the humble digital-pikey has anything to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 39 minutes ago, mommysboy said: if this lot couldn't get brought to book As immigration officers have publicly announced, you can work remotely/online with just a Tourist Visa while here. No WP is needed. If working for a Thai company or company in Thailand, you will need a Work Permit and Non-Imm visa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 7 hours ago, mommysboy said: Honestly, no it is too much of an assumption to declare it legal. It could be construed illegal by strict definition of Thai law. To be fair, the Ministry of Labour and the police were both present. They enforce the law and they very publicly said it's not illegal. It's their decision that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishcarlos Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 I wouldn't go on the assumption that it is now classed, officially, as legal !! As with anything in Thailand, interpretation of the law varies from province to province, office to office and official to official. It could end up costing you a lot, if you get caught by the wrong person, on the wrong day, in the wrong place. Keep a low profile in any activity in Thailand, don't flaunt it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 " Chinese people were working online on a tourist visa and police said they didn't do anything illegal." ...police said... Which branch of the police? Police who are tasked to be experts on this subject? Low level local officer? Officer authorized to make such statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonjelly Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Immigration and cops, lawmakers etc might be trying to close this loophole after this fiasco, but even then I doubt it’d affect the average online tefler etc working from their apartment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Funny how some of the Thai Visa members seem to think that they are not only Thai lawyers focusing on immigration and labor law, but that they actually work for the Ministry of Labor. Time and time again the immigration and labor department make a raid, suspicious that there are aliens working illegally for a Thai company or company in Thailand. When they discover that there is no Thai business connection, that they are only working remotely for non-Thai companies, all left alone. Nothing illegal in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 17 minutes ago, scorecard said: " Chinese people were working online on a tourist visa and police said they didn't do anything illegal." ...police said... Which branch of the police? Police who are tasked to be experts on this subject? Low level local officer? Officer authorized to make such statements? You obviously understand Thai labor law better than the Ministry of Labor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 5 hours ago, blackcab said: To be fair, the Ministry of Labour and the police were both present. They enforce the law and they very publicly said it's not illegal. It's their decision that counts. I'm really not being pedantic, and I want it to be legal as much as you and others. You can't infer legality- it could be for instance that it is disregarded for the time being. In practice, your argument may as well be right imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 5 hours ago, blackcab said: To be fair, the Ministry of Labour and the police were both present. They enforce the law and they very publicly said it's not illegal. It's their decision that counts. Where, when was this, what was the overall situation. Seems to me plenty of long-term folks are surprised by this, it seems to confront all that's been said for years about legal / illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Lungstib said: I was once told that if I made a phone call or sent an e-mail it could be interpreted as work. But I was in the tour business which the Thais are very keen to control. I think personal interpretation by the officer involved changes from office to office. Maybe stock trading is not seen as a threat. Being as you were in the tour business, I imagine you worked from premises. In this situation, this is very definitely defined as working in Thailand. I agree that these issues vary from region to region. In fact their interpretation may even seem to ignore the strict letter of the law at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 59 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said: Funny how some of the Thai Visa members seem to think that they are not only Thai lawyers focusing on immigration and labor law, but that they actually work for the Ministry of Labor. Time and time again the immigration and labor department make a raid, suspicious that there are aliens working illegally for a Thai company or company in Thailand. When they discover that there is no Thai business connection, that they are only working remotely for non-Thai companies, all left alone. Nothing illegal in that. Time and time again...... any examples?? And no i'm not claiming to be a lawyer about anything, but I have had Thai work permits for 30+ years, and along the way (like many others) i've gained some knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, scorecard said: Where, when was this, what was the overall situation. Seems to me plenty of long-term folks are surprised by this, it seems to confront all that's been said for years about legal / illegal. This can be gleaned by simply reading the article! Online work may not be deemed as working in Thailand under certain circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommysboy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, scorecard said: Time and time again...... any examples?? And no i'm not claiming to be a lawyer about anything, but I have had Thai work permits for 30+ years, and along the way (like many others) i've gained some knowledge. I can't be specific, but there have been similar cases in Phuket, Bangkok, and a couple in Chiang Mai. http://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177 The link is very informative. I quote the summary: NO MAGICAL FORMULA These cases may illustrate how the authorities, in this case the Chiang Mai Work Permit office positions itself with regard to the issue of foreigners working in Chiang Mai, especially digital nomads. The Work Permit office also stresses that " there is no mathematical formula to determine what constitutes work, each case has to be evaluated individually. All circumstances will be taken into account, including the time that the foreigner resides in the Kingdom, the true purpose of the foreigner coming to Thailand, the work location and work situation of the foreigner and so on. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baerboxer Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 6 hours ago, blackcab said: To be fair, the Ministry of Labour and the police were both present. They enforce the law and they very publicly said it's not illegal. It's their decision that counts. That's true. But their decision is by the senior officer(s) present in this context. We should all bear in mind that the interpretation and decision of the officer in charge of the case is what counts. Hence the variability. If you are working on-line and the work is outside of Thailand, for a non Thai business, and does not affect Thailand one iota then your're probably fine. Unless you upset the wrong person. And that's the fragility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Trading stocks does not require a work permit.. Thats a known known and has been for years. https://thethaiger.com/issues-answers/asked/do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-play-the-stock-market Stock investment is not lawfully defined as work. As long as you are not working, you do not need to apply for a work permit.For example. If you are a shareholder or an executive of a company, but you do not sign documents related to the daily functions of that company, you do not need a work permit.However, you must pay income tax if you receive a stock dividend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungstib Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, mommysboy said: Being as you were in the tour business, I imagine you worked from premises. In this situation, this is very definitely defined as working in Thailand. I agree that these issues vary from region to region. In fact their interpretation may even seem to ignore the strict letter of the law at times. It's a long-term problem thats never been sorted out. I was called a tour leader. The groups travelled around Thailand and I went with them ensuring the local agency delivered the good quality meals, rooms, transport etc. that they had payed for. Local guides were employed. An American company employed and paid me. The TAT said it was legal, the immigration and employment dept said it wasn't. They interpret the law differently. The situation still exists now but without me. I took jobs in other countries to be safe. Now I'm retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 2 hours ago, scorecard said: Time and time again...... any examples?? Sure. Here's another one that immediately springs to mind. https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/#mKFCEzmkJJW46HGT.97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Grumpy Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 I don't know why some on here are any way surprised. Immigration publicly announced that you only need a work permit and Non-Imm visa if you are working for a Thai company or for a company based here. Quote What if I want to work in Thailand? If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally. If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa. Immigration Superintendent Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/ If working remotely for a non-Thai company, you don't legally come under the Thai Worker's Act, and are free to do so on a Tourist Visa while here, and don't need a work permit or anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 21 hours ago, jackdd said: Chinese people were working online on a tourist visa and police said they didn't do anything illegal. However another news article in ThaiVisa about apparently same incident states different... EDIT: Sorry I pasted incorrect link, this is the right one: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, khunPer said: However another news article in ThaiVisa about apparently same incident states different... This article doesn't say they did anything illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, jackdd said: This article doesn't say they did anything illegal? Sorry – and thanks for your attention – I pasted an incorrect link, edited my post, this is the one I should have posted... The article states: »Fines totaling 265,000 baht or 1,600 baht per person are being paid before the stock traders will be repatriated back to China, reported Thai Rath.« Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkok Barry Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said: As immigration officers have publicly announced, you can work remotely/online with just a Tourist Visa while here. No WP is needed. But but but - another officer is just as likely to say the opposite. Nothing is EVER certain in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackdd Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, khunPer said: »Fines totaling 265,000 baht or 1,600 baht per person are being paid before the stock traders will be repatriated back to China, reported Thai Rath.« The Hotel was fined because they didn't do a TM30 for their guests (1600 per guest), has nothing to do with the "work" of the Chinese people. Of course the term "will be repatriated" is a bit strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, jackdd said: The Hotel was fined because they didn't do a TM30 for their guests (1600 per guest), has nothing to do with the "work" of the Chinese people. Of course the term "will be repatriated" is a bit strange Yes, that was the point – it's stated in the article that they were paid 15,000 baht a month, which sound like paid inside Thailand. Perhaps something got lost in transliteration. But thanks for sharing the other information, that's good news for many, as the subject has been quite confusing over the past years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 5 hours ago, scorecard said: Where, when was this, what was the overall situation. Seems to me plenty of long-term folks are surprised by this, it seems to confront all that's been said for years about legal / illegal. Link to the story is in post #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Baerboxer said: That's true. But their decision is by the senior officer(s) present in this context. I do agree, however this event unfolded over a couple of days. I tend to think there would be discussions at the Ministry as the situation unfolded. I find it difficult to believe any one Thai official made this decision by themselves. If they did, I believe they would be of a very senior rank. Like many people I find the decision surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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