Nitrogen vs compressed air

[mogandave]

The placebo effect. Doctors prescribe sugar tablets, garages put nitrogen in car wheels.

That you believe something does not make it so.

All (pneumatic) tires lose air.

N2 absolutely leaks slower than air.

While air is mostly N2, it’s about 20% O2, and O2 leaks through the tire faster than does N2.

I would not pay more for an N2 fill, it absolutely leaks slower than air.

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

placebo effect

Not true check out the difference yourself and then report your findings.

[Fruit Trader]

19 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Not true check out the difference yourself and then report your findings.

I will send for the special dust caps first because after reading the internets scientific findings I really do feel these will benefit the test. I am fully prepared to be blown away by the results.

 

P.S. Should I apply the my tires are filled with nitrogen sticker to the windshield? 

[HAKAPALITA]

1 minute ago, Fruit Trader said:

I will send for the special dust caps first because after reading the internets scientific findings I really do feel these will benefit the test. I am fully prepared to be blown away by the results.

 

P.S. Should I apply the my tires are filled with nitrogen sticker to the windshield? 

Have mopeds  got Windscreens.

[Fruit Trader]

3 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Have mopeds  got Windscreens.

At least try and give me a challenge. Maybe have another go in the morning eh

[scubascuba3]

I've had nitrogen in the UK but eventually you have to top up and if you use compressed air the benefit is gone

[johng]

I've had nitrogen in the UK but eventually you have to top up and if you use compressed air the benefit is gone

There's no benefit unless you're driving a F1,Nascar or Le Mans race car.
Normal air we that we all breath and is pumped into tyres is 78% nitrogen already.

[mogandave]

At least try and give me a challenge. Maybe have another go in the morning eh

How about learn to read?

[scubascuba3]

There's no benefit unless you're driving a F1,Nascar or Le Mans race car.
Normal air we that we all breath and is pumped into tyres is 78% nitrogen already.

But there is a benefit isn't there? With nitrogen the tyres will stay inflated for longer? I thought that was proved already. My road bike loses 5psi a day which is normal i think

[Fruit Trader]

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

How about learn to read?

 

Well at least you tried

[johng]

But there is a benefit isn't there? With nitrogen the tyres will stay inflated for longer? I thought that was proved already. My road bike loses 5psi a day which is normal i think

Ok maybe they leak the 20% oxygen slightly faster. 5psi per day I think is not normal.

100% nitrogen is used in racing because of its pressure stability at higher temperatures which racing tyres have to endure.

[mogandave]

The Hyundai shareholder says nitrogen is a scam and he does make sense on this one.
 
 

Is this not the same moron that claims it’s normal to burn 2 liters of oil between changes?

Too funny

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

my tires

You mean your tyres and when filled with nitrogen put green dust caps on, available at Big'C'.?

[jvs]

So you are using normal air at 78 % nitrogen,oxygen leaks out more than n2?So the next time you top up you will have more n2 in your tires and so on?How long will it take to have almost pure n2?

I am not going to figure that one out because for normal driving it is absolutely useless.

I have told this before ,i used to run a gym and sold a lot of health supplements.Many times people asked if they were really benificial and i always said yes of course they are.I forgot to tell them they are most beneficial to the person selling them.

[Kwasaki]

10 minutes ago, jvs said:

So you are using normal air at 78 % nitrogen,oxygen leaks out more than n2?So the next time you top up you will have more n2 in your tires and so on?How long will it take to have almost pure n2?

I am not going to figure that one out because for normal driving it is absolutely useless.

I have told this before ,i used to run a gym and sold a lot of health supplements.Many times people asked if they were really benificial and i always said yes of course they are.I forgot to tell them they are most beneficial to the person selling them.

So you are another who has not actually tried it out for yourself - OK.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kwasaki

[canthai55]

N2 at 100% ? Impossible unless wheel/tire is placed in a vacuum chamber first.

Air pressure at sea level 14.7 psi.

[mogandave]

N2 at 100% ? Impossible unless wheel/tire is placed in a vacuum chamber first.
Air pressure at sea level 14.7 psi.

Who said 100%?

Would it not be easier to use a N2 chamber than a vacuum chamber?

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

N2 at 100% ? Impossible unless wheel/tire is placed in a vacuum chamber first.

Air pressure at sea level 14.7 psi.

Just like all the previous threads on nitro or air it's about choice whether it's 100% or 70% doesn't matter it keeps psi in tyres longer than just plain air from the pump stations.

 

[Fruit Trader]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Just like all the previous threads on nitro or air it's about choice whether it's 100% or 70% doesn't matter it keeps psi in tyres longer than just plain air from the pump stations.

 

But now that the snake oil baiting is over and the lemmings are done following the lead claim, it might be worth pointing out that no one actually said that nitrogen does not permeate less. 

 

Anyways, I asked the wife to get down the sign writers tomorrow and have a board made in Thai. Nitrogen fills from 50 Baht and all the cool yadda . The wife's brother can reel in some of this N2 action down at his Sukhumvit cleaning bay. Farangs, 200 Baht a corner.

[mogandave]

...it might be worth pointing out that no one actually said that nitrogen does not permeate less. 

Guess you did a little reading, good for you.

[HAKAPALITA]

53 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Guess you did a little reading, good for you.

 

Tyre Plus outlets have had free N for ages, free if you buy any tyres from them.or use any other of their services,you get a card thats world wide, good company i find.

[transam]

Serious users of nitrogen to acquire 99% have wheel rims with two valves, one to put N2 in and blast the air/moisture out of the second (bleed)..

[canthai55]

On 5/23/2018 at 4:42 PM, canthai55 said:

Yup - fill tires with N2, lift hood when parked - raise wiper blades when parked.

Ain't science grand ! 555

 

1 hour ago, transam said:

Serious users of nitrogen to acquire 99% have wheel rims with two valves, one to put N2 in and blast the air/moisture out of the second (bleed)..

Amend my post above - call it

' How to spot a knowledgeable car guy in LOS'

2 Schrader valves 555

[HAKAPALITA]

23 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

 

Amend my post above - call it

' How to spot a knowledgeable car guy in LOS'

2 Schrader valves 555

Plus a Pressure Gauge stuck im each Ear.

[transam]

13 hours ago, canthai55 said:

N2 at 100% ? Impossible unless wheel/tire is placed in a vacuum chamber first.

Air pressure at sea level 14.7 psi.

From a knowledgeable guy.....

 

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/yokohama-s-drives-on-pch-1/why-two-valve-stems-on-kosei-k1-wheel

[Sam Lin]

On 5/22/2018 at 8:56 AM, Kwasaki said:

People with little knowledge of motors listen to that Oz guy vids.

IMO that Oz <deleted> twist things and he an idiot in my book to say the least.

The AutoExpert guy isn't usually wrong with his science, but he's often wrong with the assumptions that he bases his science on. This is intentional, his channel is a shill advertisement for his car buying service, and by being controversially wrong he gets more viewers.

 

Nitrogen tire fill has the benefit of less pressure variation due to temperature changes, whether seasonal, or from tire heat during each drive. This actually has nothing to do with the nitrogen itself, but with the moisture/humidity level inside the tire. If you fill from a compressor with ambient air, you are concentrating atmospheric humidity into your tire. The tire lube that is used to mount every tire onto its rim also is liquid and ends up inside your tire. That moisture expands and contracts with temperature much more than the air does. You can fill with another bottled gas like CO2 or Argon and get the same results. You can also fill with compressed air that has been through a good dessicant dryer and get the same results. The difference is subtle - most street cars will see around a 1psi hot difference between dried air/N2 and "normal" compressed air. Useless on a street car, may get you the last tenths of a second on a race car, which is why all professional race teams fill nitrogen. Scroll to the last graph here for a real-world study:

https://www.mojotiretools.com/N2_FAQ_Q01.htm

 

There are other benefits to nitrogen fill. While the molecule size is theoretically going to leak a little less, in reality that will never be enough to be measurable. More importantly, another large benefit is again tied to the lack of humidity - if you get low quality tires or have internal tire damage that exposes part of a belt, a dry filled tire will not have the belt begin to rust - that rust can creep along the belt into the tire carcass and cause a delamination. If you have actual standing water inside your tire, this becomes a very large concern. (Don't laugh, it's entirely possible to get liquid with the crappy fill hoses at many tire stations - air cools and condenses droplets of moisture in the hose, those drops run down to the base of a loop in the hose, and after a fill or 2 that water comes out into your tire in liquid form. If you've ever heard liquid gurgle while filling, or seen a spray of mist out of the filler, that's liquid potentially into your tire. To guard against this, trigger the machine to fill and hold the nozzle open with your hand so it blows some air and purges the hose before you connect it to your tire valve).

 

If your rims do not have 2 opposing valves, you can still purge over 99% of the moisture from within by doing multiple fill, vent to atmosphere, fill, vent to atmosphere cycles using nitrogen or dried air. One of the new Bangchak near the head of Phahonyothin actually installed a nitrogen generator when they opened, and had it feeding their tire fill. I did this fill/vent/fill/vent process a number of times there. However, they clearly didn't maintain the generator and it faulted after about 6mo, at which point they simply removed it and replaced it with a normal air compressor.

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

The AutoExpert guy isn't usually wrong with his science, but he's often wrong with the assumptions that he bases his science on. This is intentional, his channel is a shill advertisement for his car buying service, and by being controversially wrong he gets more viewers.

 

Nitrogen tire fill has the benefit of less pressure variation due to temperature changes, whether seasonal, or from tire heat during each drive. This actually has nothing to do with the nitrogen itself, but with the moisture/humidity level inside the tire. If you fill from a compressor with ambient air, you are concentrating atmospheric humidity into your tire. The tire lube that is used to mount every tire onto its rim also is liquid and ends up inside your tire. That moisture expands and contracts with temperature much more than the air does. You can fill with another bottled gas like CO2 or Argon and get the same results. You can also fill with compressed air that has been through a good dessicant dryer and get the same results. The difference is subtle - most street cars will see around a 1psi hot difference between dried air/N2 and "normal" compressed air. Useless on a street car, may get you the last tenths of a second on a race car, which is why all professional race teams fill nitrogen. Scroll to the last graph here for a real-world study:

https://www.mojotiretools.com/N2_FAQ_Q01.htm

 

There are other benefits to nitrogen fill. While the molecule size is theoretically going to leak a little less, in reality that will never be enough to be measurable. More importantly, another large benefit is again tied to the lack of humidity - if you get low quality tires or have internal tire damage that exposes part of a belt, a dry filled tire will not have the belt begin to rust - that rust can creep along the belt into the tire carcass and cause a delamination. If you have actual standing water inside your tire, this becomes a very large concern. (Don't laugh, it's entirely possible to get liquid with the crappy fill hoses at many tire stations - air cools and condenses droplets of moisture in the hose, those drops run down to the base of a loop in the hose, and after a fill or 2 that water comes out into your tire in liquid form. If you've ever heard liquid gurgle while filling, or seen a spray of mist out of the filler, that's liquid potentially into your tire. To guard against this, trigger the machine to fill and hold the nozzle open with your hand so it blows some air and purges the hose before you connect it to your tire valve).

 

If your rims do not have 2 opposing valves, you can still purge over 99% of the moisture from within by doing multiple fill, vent to atmosphere, fill, vent to atmosphere cycles using nitrogen or dried air. One of the new Bangchak near the head of Phahonyothin actually installed a nitrogen generator when they opened, and had it feeding their tire fill. I did this fill/vent/fill/vent process a number of times there. However, they clearly didn't maintain the generator and it faulted after about 6mo, at which point they simply removed it and replaced it with a normal air compressor.

 True,

you can't imagine the amount of water that comes out when I bleed the compressor at my business in the US . In the winter when the air is dry, very litle water, in the Summer when it is humid a lot!

I can only imagine the amount of water in Thailand with all that year round humidity.   

 

[canthai55]

All well and good - for street cars in the real world - a non issue.

Lets overfill with propane - then stop, open the second valve, and have a BBQ

[transam]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:42 AM, canthai55 said:

Yup - fill tires with N2, lift hood when parked - raise wiper blades when parked.

Ain't science grand ! 555

It is, I also mixed water with petrol, which is absolutely true..Have you...?

[VocalNeal]

23 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

which is why all professional race teams fill nitrogen.

Also because at many tracks they supply their own air so rather than carting around a compressor with a dryer they simply buy locally industrial gases in bottles. Nitrogen is the cheapest. 

These bottles also run their wheel change rattle guns, etc. 

Even with nitrogen F1 teams used to heat their wheel/tire to very hot temps so their tire pressures could be measured to comply with min regs. When the tires cooled down to normal race temps the pressure was less which is what they wanted.

 

If nitrogen is free then there is no reason not to use it. But it is not worth paying for.

 

NB. In industrial plants they generally have two types of air. Normal compressed air for workshops etc and instrument air for powering control valves and the like. Instrument air is dry and run through desiccant dryers to get the dew point down prior to distribution. These regen dryers are too bulky for F1 teams etc.