Where can I learn more about Thai social hierarchy and "Face"?

[sipi]

Accidentally brush against an older Thai person and when he starts screaming like a girl in front of a mob of somchais that you assulted him you will soon learn where you stand. 

[seancbk]

18 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

I don't think the class system in Thailand is really that different from anywhere else. If you're a pot bellied, Chang swilling Farang, with a tattooed bar girl on your arm then you're hardly going to gain any respect from the Thai hierarchy. People of a high social status can spot others a mile off, whether you're Thai or otherwise. I'm willing to bet that if a Farang is clearly from a high social group then the equivalent Thais will have no issues welcoming them into their own circles. Anyone who believes otherwise clearly thinks their social status is higher than it actually is.
At the end of the day, loss of face just amounts to being afraid of admitting you're in the wrong of at fault. This is a big flaw in Thai culture. So, if you're like me and big enough to hold your hands up and apologise when you know of think you're at fault then you won't go far wrong.
I spend way more time mixing with Thai people than my fellow Farangs, and in every case they have bent over backwards to make me feel welcome almost to the point that it becomes embarrassing. So don't listen to the cynics who say you will never be excepted in Thai society.
Clearly the problem is with them, not the Thai people.
 

 

100% agreed.  

[jenny2017]

If you want to live here, please start to learn the language.

   Thais constantly "lose face" over almost everything. Never wai people out of the blue, younger Thais have to wai you first, when you wai them back, the wai to younger people is much lower. 

So higher the social rank/ importance of the Thai person, so higher the wai, usually hands at your nose. 

When dealing with " normal" "higher class people", always be polite, never raise your voice, just don't do things you wouldn't like others to do to you.

Never get into an argument with a guy, they never fight alone and would come back with a whole army to repay.

 

  Always use polite words, such as sorry ( kothoot khrap) and don't forget to say thank you ( khop Khun Khrap). Don't have sex with a Thai guy's wife, and you're good to go. 

   
 

 

[Brayka]

I ask myself what all those negatiev guys are doing here? If Thai people think I am shit, I don’t want to stay here. 

I can only say that they treat me the way I treat them, with respect and as a guest in their country. Okay we will maybe never family but in the meantime I have a lot of friends among them and they accept me and we share a lot of things together. 

The cause that most farang forget is the language, if you speak Thai, a whole lot changes.....

But as long as some foreign people treat Thai as drunks, stupid and lazy ...for them probably nothing will change.

[Suradit69]

Learning about "face" ...

 

About 80 % of the threads on Thai Visa are about the trauma of loss of "face" suffered by farang who respond with an incessant high pitched whining when they learn what it is to feel marginalized.  

 

The messages posted alre not so much instructive as entertaining, e,specially if you enjoy reading the thoughts of confused sex tourists and economic refugees.

[Enoon]

 

For the origins and foundations of contemporary Thai social hierarchy see "Sakdina System".

 

 

 

[GreasyFingers]

Old books but worth a read for background background. Otherwise "some" sensible advice on here

Culture Shock – Thailand  -  Robert & Nantopa Cooper

Publisher:  Marshall Cavendish  ISBN 981 276 1347

-------------------------------------------

Thai Ways  -  Denis Segaller

Pant Books:  ISBN 974 202 006 X

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Working with the Thais  -  Henry Holmes and Suchada Tangtongtavy

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Lucien Hanks "Merit and Power in the Thai Social Order", 1962 and Fred W Riggs 1966)

[manchega]

On 5/26/2018 at 6:18 PM, Brayka said:

I ask myself what all those negatiev guys are doing here? If Thai people think I am shit, I don’t want to stay here. 

I can only say that they treat me the way I treat them, with respect and as a guest in their country. Okay we will maybe never family but in the meantime I have a lot of friends among them and they accept me and we share a lot of things together. 

The cause that most farang forget is the language, if you speak Thai, a whole lot changes.....

But as long as some foreign people treat Thai as drunks, stupid and lazy ...for them probably nothing will change.

not negative and not a guy ( two negatives there)

but I do understand Thai.

yes on more than one occasion have had insults thrown at me thinking I dinnae understand the feckless waffles

but in general honesty works.

when i drive i console myself with the thought you can't fix stupid.

in fact I console myself with the same when I see what the professional builders do, and electricians, and those that keep hanging more wires, oh and those people who feel the urge to speed on 50 m of road when there is a right angle and a gate before you get to the road - well there I feel wire strung across the road would help, but 

[dundas]

I suggest you spend a  bit more time on Thai Visa, with the aim of learning all you need to know about how to gain status, and your own place in the pecking order. TV is a great social test lab, made more convenient and accessible by its cyberspace location. Then apply what you have learned to other human systems, such as the Thai one, in real life. 

[Dick Crank]

On May 25, 2018 at 3:38 AM, ukrules said:

You're not Thai, and almost certainly never will be.

 

What applies to them doesn't apply to you.

 

Remember this and ignore all their 'cultural' BS, it only applies to Thais and that counts you out.

I respectfully disagree

 

if you can master 'the sneer' you can move to the top of the Thai pecking order regardless off color or nationality.

 

no go to it, grasshopper.

[AntDee]

On 5/26/2018 at 6:18 PM, Brayka said:

I ask myself what all those negatiev guys are doing here? If Thai people think I am shit, I don’t want to stay here. 

I can only say that they treat me the way I treat them, with respect and as a guest in their country. Okay we will maybe never family but in the meantime I have a lot of friends among them and they accept me and we share a lot of things together. 

The cause that most farang forget is the language, if you speak Thai, a whole lot changes.....

But as long as some foreign people treat Thai as drunks, stupid and lazy ...for them probably nothing will change.

There are so many shades of grey. I've known many of farang here who professed their success befriending Thais. Sadly, so many eventually came to the realization that all the smiling faces were plastic. And all the compliments they thought they received in earnest were in fact people just doing what they do best: telling them what they wanted to hear. 

 

The most well adjusted, successful farang in Thailand are invariably the ones who have almost no local friends.  And, that is true for the educated Japanese expats, too. How many times per month you see locals socializing (unforced) with foreigners (especially men)? 

[AntDee]

One aspect of face that is rarely explained is how it is affected by honor or lack thereof. 

In Japan, for example, face is a fundamental societal building block. The Japanese, though, have a culture of ethic and honor and hard work. A Japanese person, on average, would not hide behind face as a way to mask a bad action. So, in a place like Japan, face can be a great thing. Most of us know of the Japanese propensity for apologizing and for reprimanding themselves or even committing suicide when they've been disgraced. 

 

Contrast that with Thailand and some will say, on average, local people lack those traits. You can observe some of the national character by watching locals when they think nobody is looking. For example, pay attention to how often a local person will break a rule or law such as driving the wrong way. The national character is often poor and this leads to face functioning as a negative part of the system. How many times has a Thai person apologized to you for anything or owned responsibility for a bad action or reprimanded themselves? 

 

2 manifestations of face. Two totally different uses of it. Face in Thailand is largely a negative characteristic. 

[seancbk]

11 hours ago, AntDee said:

There are so many shades of grey. I've known many of farang here who professed their success befriending Thais. Sadly, so many eventually came to the realization that all the smiling faces were plastic. And all the compliments they thought they received in earnest were in fact people just doing what they do best: telling them what they wanted to hear. 

 

The most well adjusted, successful farang in Thailand are invariably the ones who have almost no local friends.  And, that is true for the educated Japanese expats, too. How many times per month you see locals socializing (unforced) with foreigners (especially men)? 

 

What nonsense.  I socialise all the time with my Thai friends, I get invited to their houses for BBQs and they ask me to join them when they go out, or I ask them to join me and my friends.  
Tons of Farangs and Thais socialise in Bangkok all the time.  Just looks at the social groups that are arranged through Facebook and sites like Meetup.

 

[AntDee]

12 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

What nonsense.  I socialise all the time with my Thai friends, I get invited to their houses for BBQs and they ask me to join them when they go out, or I ask them to join me and my friends.  
Tons of Farangs and Thais socialise in Bangkok all the time.  Just looks at the social groups that are arranged through Facebook and sites like Meetup.

 

No offense intended, but I suspect you may be older and perhaps lack sensitivity to nuance. Mine was not an absolute statement but a relative one. 

 

Compared to healthier societies, very few local-foreign interactions are taking place. In your heart of heart, you know this is true. Locals and foreigners barely interact here. I'm a longtime legal partner for a multinational, so I've been in and among the elite here for 30 years. 

[IsaanFam]

On 5/25/2018 at 2:54 PM, ChiangMaiLightning2143 said:

Where do you fit in Thai social order? If you are you a Farang then you are lower than a convicted Thai child molestor on death row, even a rabbed dog in the street. Could have been a reincarnated Thai.

Then coelenterate worms of a latrine.

Then Africans and Indians.

“White privilege”

 

 

I think it's wrong. We are not part of the social class, we are outsiders. This means, we are not classed as anybody in this society and this gives us freedom to treat everybody with the respect we want to give them. And I really love it because if everybody is wai'ing and bending over a specific guy you can just walk to him and tell him that the weather's great.

[IsaanFam]

On 5/25/2018 at 5:56 PM, jackdd said:

As others said before, unless you look like a Thai nothing is expected from you, you never "fit in"

So for a foreigner it's quite easy:

You greet anybody with a sawas dee khab, but you only "wai" people who are friends / family and who are older than you (if friends / family who are younger than you "wai" you first you can "wai" back but it's not expected). Always talk polite with everybody. If you stick to this you can't do anything wrong.

 

I never wai because I am never will be and want to be part of their hierarchy construction because I abhor inequality of human blood. If you want to be yourself, never wai.

[IsaanFam]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:16 PM, Dmaxdan said:

I don't think the class system in Thailand is really that different from anywhere else. If you're a pot bellied, Chang swilling Farang, with a tattooed bar girl on your arm then you're hardly going to gain any respect from the Thai hierarchy. People of a high social status can spot others a mile off, whether you're Thai or otherwise. I'm willing to bet that if a Farang is clearly from a high social group then the equivalent Thais will have no issues welcoming them into their own circles. Anyone who believes otherwise clearly thinks their social status is higher than it actually is.
At the end of the day, loss of face just amounts to being afraid of admitting you're in the wrong of at fault. This is a big flaw in Thai culture. So, if you're like me and big enough to hold your hands up and apologise when you know of think you're at fault then you won't go far wrong.
I spend way more time mixing with Thai people than my fellow Farangs, and in every case they have bent over backwards to make me feel welcome almost to the point that it becomes embarrassing. So don't listen to the cynics who say you will never be excepted in Thai society.
Clearly the problem is with them, not the Thai people.



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

The funny part of this is that Thais are really super serious about the hierarchy. Over time I have made multiple encounters based on this principle. Flip flops vs dressed nicely. They treat you very differently. 

 

In Isaan, everybody comes to me and talks to me. But only if I wear shorts and flip flops. If I wear my regular clothing, ie long sleeve, long chinos, nobody seems to want to talk with me.

[IsaanFam]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:16 PM, Dmaxdan said:

I don't think the class system in Thailand is really that different from anywhere else. If you're a pot bellied, Chang swilling Farang, with a tattooed bar girl on your arm then you're hardly going to gain any respect from the Thai hierarchy. People of a high social status can spot others a mile off, whether you're Thai or otherwise. I'm willing to bet that if a Farang is clearly from a high social group then the equivalent Thais will have no issues welcoming them into their own circles. Anyone who believes otherwise clearly thinks their social status is higher than it actually is.
At the end of the day, loss of face just amounts to being afraid of admitting you're in the wrong of at fault. This is a big flaw in Thai culture. So, if you're like me and big enough to hold your hands up and apologise when you know of think you're at fault then you won't go far wrong.
I spend way more time mixing with Thai people than my fellow Farangs, and in every case they have bent over backwards to make me feel welcome almost to the point that it becomes embarrassing. So don't listen to the cynics who say you will never be excepted in Thai society.
Clearly the problem is with them, not the Thai people.



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

The funny part of this is that Thais are really super serious about the hierarchy. Over time I have made multiple encounters based on this principle. Flip flops vs dressed nicely. They treat you very differently. 

 

In Isaan, everybody comes to me and talks to me. But only if I wear shorts and flip flops. If I wear my regular clothing, ie long sleeve, long chinos, nobody seems to want to talk with me.

[IsaanFam]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:31 AM, possum1931 said:

and what if they jump the queue in front of you, do you let them because you are farang? 

 

 

Normally I just show them my dick and this solves the issue. 

[bermondburi]

On 5/26/2018 at 6:50 AM, connda said:

Pick up a copy of Thailand Fever and give it a read.  That will give you a start.  After you live here 10 years you'll understand the subtle nuances that those of us long-term ex-pats who have married into Thai families have come to know and love.  After which you'll neither go "100% Native" and embrace the whole sha-bang, or you'll develop a jocular, cheeky, and somewhat facetious sense of humor to keep the oddities of Thai social customs in perspective and have a little fun in the process.  Example: Go to an outing with the family and high wai children and insist on shaking hands with the adults for fun and amusement.  <chortle>  Being considered eccentric and somewhat 'off' by everyone you know has it's perks.  It keeps everyone off balance and you can leverage it to your advantage.
Also, learn Thai but don't let folks know you know.  You'll find out exactly what they think of you. 
Good luck! 

That book is way out of date now. 20 years ago maybe.......

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, IsaanFam said:

 

Normally I just show them my dick and this solves the issue. 

yes, and end up in the monkeyhouse, and you would deserve it.

[seancbk]

13 hours ago, AntDee said:

No offense intended, but I suspect you may be older and perhaps lack sensitivity to nuance. Mine was not an absolute statement but a relative one. 

 

Compared to healthier societies, very few local-foreign interactions are taking place. In your heart of heart, you know this is true. Locals and foreigners barely interact here. I'm a longtime legal partner for a multinational, so I've been in and among the elite here for 30 years. 

 

No offence taken.  I'm 50 but look, act and feel like I'm still 30 and my Thai friends are mostly in their 30's.  I guess you'd call them middle class - one of the families just sold their house and land in Ekkamai for 150 million baht.  They are also mostly, but not all, overseas educated (British public schools).   

I spent 35 years living in Hong Kong and I've been here for 10 so far, so I feel I understand Asians pretty well.   

Your statement that "The most well adjusted, successful farang in Thailand are invariably the ones who have almost no local friends."   is rubbish (no offence).  I would say it's the opposite.  The more successful you are the more likely you are to be welcomed into Thai society.  

I'm not sure how you can claim that locals and foreigners barely interact and then say you've been in and amongst the elite for 30 years.   Do you not interact with them despite being amongst them?   

[AntDee]

On 5/31/2018 at 12:24 PM, seancbk said:

 

No offence taken.  I'm 50 but look, act and feel like I'm still 30 and my Thai friends are mostly in their 30's.  I guess you'd call them middle class - one of the families just sold their house and land in Ekkamai for 150 million baht.  They are also mostly, but not all, overseas educated (British public schools).   

I spent 35 years living in Hong Kong and I've been here for 10 so far, so I feel I understand Asians pretty well.   

Your statement that "The most well adjusted, successful farang in Thailand are invariably the ones who have almost no local friends."   is rubbish (no offence).  I would say it's the opposite.  The more successful you are the more likely you are to be welcomed into Thai society.  

I'm not sure how you can claim that locals and foreigners barely interact and then say you've been in and amongst the elite for 30 years.   Do you not interact with them despite being amongst them?   

One can be around people and not be interacting on a meaningful level. To add more context, what I'm talking about is interaction that is not coerced. There are literally millions of foreigners here at any given time. Look around and give me sense of how many we see interacting with locals. 

 

When you goto lunch, how many mixed tables do you see? 

 

When you go out on the weekends to fancy (or not) places for entertainment, how many do you see?

 

I've spent time all up and down Ekkamai and Thonglor. Thais and foreigners almost never caught mixing.

 

Luxury resorts ditto. Was recently at one such resort up in the mountains. Full of well-heeled Thais. To give an idea, bungalows START at 30,000 Thai Baht per NIGHT and go up much higher.  Breakfast buffet full of people from all over the world. My mrs and me met 1 couple from Italy, one from Japan who we all had dinner with. The next night we talked with a couple from Xian, China. Great people who have a large investment here in Thailand. 

 

Not a single Thai group that I saw interacted with any of the many foreigners there. 

 

Schools - same. My 2 kids were enrolled in a very famous top 2 uni near Siam. The complaints from the farang parents in our group was the same. The Thai parents always seemed stsndoffish.

 

It's a well-known phenomenon here. 

[Sheryl]

Do  not worry about losing face yourself (as ref in OP) - face is an illusion as is the loss of it,  those who know this can never lose it. 

 

But it is indeed good to gain an understanding of how class and status operate in Thai society, partly so that you can avoid really major faux pas (as a foreigner you get a free pass on small ones) that would otherwise give offense, and mainly so  that you can understand what goes on around you and what is and is not possible for Thais to do --  especially those lower on the status totem pole, or any Thai when dealing with someone higher in status than themselves . Unlike farangs, a fellow Thai does not get a free pass for anything! And often what may seem to you like an obvious recourse or solution in a situation is not possible for the Thai person involved.

 

Because Thais are so forgiving of farang cultural errors (and also because we are often viewed as at least partially outside the social order and thus  less subject to many of its rules) it is very easy not to realize just how severely circumscribed a Thai person is in their social interactions, and then to be mystified by how they respond. If you understand how rank and status operate, you'll be able to understand Thai behavior much better. 

 

Can't suggest any particular book though, but simply paying attention -- and also asking Thais  friends questions about it (in private) - will quickly fill in the blanks for you.

 

By the way, I do not agree with the "don't wai people of lower status" philosophy and neither do all Thais.  Wai-ing someone whose social status does not, per social norms,  require it can be a powerful and much appreciated way of conveying that you respect their personhood. Don't take it to silly extremes (i.e, don't go around wai-ing waiters at restaurants and such) but do wai when it fills right and you'll soon come to know when that is.

 

 

[Ks45672]

On 5/26/2018 at 8:44 AM, Boon Mee said:

Best area of the country to learn more about Thai society is living upcountry. 

The real Thailand. 

The rural villages are not places you are going to meet anyone of high social status, hanging around outside the mom and pop store drinking a beer..... 

 

Try golf courses and upmarket clubs around bkk

 

You may struggle a bit with introductions because the true wealthy elite probably have zero interest in meeting you unless you are introduced by someone else they  know and respect ?

 

And being able to converse in fluent Thai goes a long way...... 

 

 

[Dick Crank]

12 hours ago, AntDee said:

One can be around people and not be interacting on a meaningful level. To add more context, what I'm talking about is interaction that is not coerced. There are literally millions of foreigners here at any given time. Look around and give me sense of how many we see interacting with locals. 

 

When you goto lunch, how many mixed tables do you see? 

 

When you go out on the weekends to fancy (or not) places for entertainment, how many do you see?

 

I've spent time all up and down Ekkamai and Thonglor. Thais and foreigners almost never caught mixing.

 

Luxury resorts ditto. Was recently at one such resort up in the mountains. Full of well-heeled Thais. To give an idea, bungalows START at 30,000 Thai Baht per NIGHT and go up much higher.  Breakfast buffet full of people from all over the world. My mrs and me met 1 couple from Italy, one from Japan who we all had dinner with. The next night we talked with a couple from Xian, China. Great people who have a large investment here in Thailand. 

 

Not a single Thai group that I saw interacted with any of the many foreigners there. 

 

Schools - same. My 2 kids were enrolled in a very famous top 2 uni near Siam. The complaints from the farang parents in our group was the same. The Thai parents always seemed stsndoffish.

 

It's a well-known phenomenon here. 

Hard to have genuine friendships in a classist society where you don't see others as equals. Foreigners don't really fit into the scheme so they are more or less ignored.

 

Did have a neighbor in chiang mai who would have drinks with a male thai group now and again,

 

hard to explain but it was clear when I was there that he was always the odd man out and was in the group, but not really "in" the group. If push came to shove the thais were much closer and not likely to stand up for him or me against each other if there was some sort of disagreement.

 

If you like mixing friendships maybe try someplace like Frisco in the USA although it's not perfect either.

 

 

[grollies]

13 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Do  not worry about losing face yourself (as ref in OP) - face is an illusion as is the loss of it,  those who know this can never lose it. 

 

But it is indeed good to gain an understanding of how class and status operate in Thai society, partly so that you can avoid really major faux pas (as a foreigner you get a free pass on small ones) that would otherwise give offense, and mainly so  that you can understand what goes on around you and what is and is not possible for Thais to do --  especially those lower on the status totem pole, or any Thai when dealing with someone higher in status than themselves . Unlike farangs, a fellow Thai does not get a free pass for anything! And often what may seem to you like an obvious recourse or solution in a situation is not possible for the Thai person involved.

 

Because Thais are so forgiving of farang cultural errors (and also because we are often viewed as at least partially outside the social order and thus  less subject to many of its rules) it is very easy not to realize just how severely circumscribed a Thai person is in their social interactions, and then to be mystified by how they respond. If you understand how rank and status operate, you'll be able to understand Thai behavior much better. 

 

Can't suggest any particular book though, but simply paying attention -- and also asking Thais  friends questions about it (in private) - will quickly fill in the blanks for you.

 

By the way, I do not agree with the "don't wai people of lower status" philosophy and neither do all Thais.  Wai-ing someone whose social status does not, per social norms,  require it can be a powerful and much appreciated way of conveying that you respect their personhood. Don't take it to silly extremes (i.e, don't go around wai-ing waiters at restaurants and such) but do wai when it fills right and you'll soon come to know when that is.

 

 

Every visitor to our house wais and gets one in return, tappers, labourers, friends and the VP of PTT has just been over, he got one too.

 

Not wai-ing those of 'lower' social status just makes one a snob.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 2:17 PM, MaeJoMTB said:

Serving staff you pretend don't exist, unless you're a fool in which case wai everyone.

I got on the bus once and a farang that wai'd the doorman of the hotel got on. We got chatting and he really was an idiot.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, Ks45672 said:

The rural villages are not places you are going to meet anyone of high social status, hanging around outside the mom and pop store drinking a beer..... 

 

Try golf courses and upmarket clubs around bkk

 

You may struggle a bit with introductions because the true wealthy elite probably have zero interest in meeting you unless you are introduced by someone else they  know and respect ?

 

And being able to converse in fluent Thai goes a long way...... 

 

 

I'd add that if you want to understand Thai culture, learning fluent conversational Thai would be essential.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, AntDee said:

One can be around people and not be interacting on a meaningful level. To add more context, what I'm talking about is interaction that is not coerced. There are literally millions of foreigners here at any given time. Look around and give me sense of how many we see interacting with locals. 

 

When you goto lunch, how many mixed tables do you see? 

 

When you go out on the weekends to fancy (or not) places for entertainment, how many do you see?

 

I've spent time all up and down Ekkamai and Thonglor. Thais and foreigners almost never caught mixing.

 

Luxury resorts ditto. Was recently at one such resort up in the mountains. Full of well-heeled Thais. To give an idea, bungalows START at 30,000 Thai Baht per NIGHT and go up much higher.  Breakfast buffet full of people from all over the world. My mrs and me met 1 couple from Italy, one from Japan who we all had dinner with. The next night we talked with a couple from Xian, China. Great people who have a large investment here in Thailand. 

 

Not a single Thai group that I saw interacted with any of the many foreigners there. 

 

Schools - same. My 2 kids were enrolled in a very famous top 2 uni near Siam. The complaints from the farang parents in our group was the same. The Thai parents always seemed stsndoffish.

 

It's a well-known phenomenon here. 

LOL. If you really want to interact with Thais, don't go where the hiso play. They have no interest, IMO, in associating with farangs, unless extremely rich, or business associates.

The lower classes are the ones to make friends with, if interested in doing so.