End 'hide and seek' Brexit approach, Barnier tells UK

[rooster59]

End 'hide and seek' Brexit approach, Barnier tells UK

By Alastair Macdonald

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The EU's Brexit negotiator urged the British government on Saturday to stop playing "hide and seek" over its aims for trade ties and warned that delays in agreeing on judicial oversight risk wrecking any Brexit deal.

 

In pointed remarks after an ill-tempered week of talks in Brussels, Michel Barnier insisted he would not be intimidated by what he called a "blame game" from London of accusing the EU of inflexibility in rejecting British demands for close cooperation on security, trade and other issues after Brexit.

 

In the text of a speech in Portugal to experts in EU law, he accused British leaders of failing to understand that it was the unique legal structures of the EU, to which Britain had contributed for 45 years, which underpinned trust among member states. These, he said, could not be extended to a non-member.

 

The former French minister's comments come two days after an EU official dismissed as "fantasy" London's ideas for a customs deal, the border with Ireland and other issues.

 

British ministers said those remarks were not "helpful". Both sides are hoping to make progress on a treaty before Prime Minister Theresa May meets the other 27 EU national leaders in a month in Brussels. They aim to agree a treaty by October.

 

Barnier said he was ready to have "political level" talks to try to advance in three key areas where uncertainty remains, 10 months before Britain is due to leave in March 2019 -- how to rule on future disputes over the withdrawal treaty, a "backstop" solution for the Irish border and a framework for future ties.

 

May's government, deeply divided over how to stick close to the EU, is debating whether to drop its rejection of a customs union.

Barnier said: "If the United Kingdom would like to change its own red lines, it must tell us. The sooner the better ... A negotiation cannot be a game of hide and seek."

 

GOVERNANCE URGENCY

 

On the issue of the governance of a withdrawal treaty, he repeated the EU's insistence that primacy of the European Court of Justice inside the Union be maintained in regulating any dispute that could not be resolved by a joint committee appointed by the political leadership of both sides.

 

The role of British judges would be respected, he added.

 

But "without an agreement on governance, there will be no withdrawal agreement and so no transition period."

 

A British government spokesman said London had been clear that when Britain left the EU, it would leave the ECJ's jurisdiction.

 

"We are working constructively to negotiate an approach to enforcement and dispute resolution which meets the key objectives of both the UK and the EU, underpinning the deep and special partnership we seek," he said.

 

"However, we are clear the dispute resolution mechanism must respect the autonomy and integrity of both the UK and the EU: it will be for our courts to interpret and apply the agreement."

 

Many businesses are counting on a broad status quo between Britain and the EU after Brexit, agreed until the end of 2020.

 

Barnier also criticised British officials for accusing the EU of inflexibility that would leave gaps in cooperation on security and other areas which would hurt both sides: "I see the temptation of a 'blame game' by which the European Union is responsible for the negative consequences of Brexit," he said.

 

"But that will not sway us. That will not sway me."

 

Citing British demands to be allowed to stay inside the EU's data protection system in the interests of EU business, Barnier said this was to miss the importance of the EU's internal rules.

 

"Let's be clear: Brexit is not and never will be in the interests of EU businesses," he said. "It would not be in those businesses' interests to abandon our autonomy of decisions.

 

"The United Kingdom must face up to the reality of the Union. It must also face the reality of Brexit ... It is one thing to be inside the Union and another to be on the outside."

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-05-27

[petermik]

Like it or lump it Mr Barnier we are leaving....all your posturing/rhetoric is falling on deaf ears,and rightly so.....BYE  

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

In the text of a speech in Portugal to experts in EU law, he accused British leaders of failing to understand that it was the unique legal structures of the EU, to which Britain had contributed for 45 years, which underpinned trust among member states. These, he said, could not be extended to a non-member.

Mr Barnier speaks with forked tongue. If it cannot be extended to a non - member, why are you trying to keep the UK tied to the ECJ ?

 

8 minutes ago, rooster59 said:

A British government spokesman said London had been clear that when Britain left the EU, it would leave the ECJ's jurisdiction.

This is correct and has been since day one.

 

When you leave a club, the clubs rules no longer apply to you, that includes the ECJ.

 

But let's cut to the chase, negotiations are non -- existent because the only thing that the EU / Barnier wishes to negotiate is keeping the UK tied at the waist to Brussels, under the ECJ and to continue handing over Billions of ££££££££££££'s for the pleasure.

[SheungWan]

The core of the problem is the split within the UK Government. Trying to square irreconcilable positions and sticking the blame on the EU to cover tracks. A likely pattern until some last minute cobbling. Not a pretty sight but there it is.

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The core of the problem is the split within the UK Government. Trying to square irreconcilable positions and sticking the blame on the EU to cover tracks. A likely pattern until some last minute cobbling. Not a pretty sight but there it is.

The reason Cameron agreed to the referendum was to try to prevent the very same split in the Tory party.

 

Now the Tories are at each other’s throats over how to proceed.

 

A gaping open goal Corbyn is unable to exploit.

 

[stephenterry]

2 hours ago, petermik said:

Like it or lump it Mr Barnier we are leaving....all your posturing/rhetoric is falling on deaf ears,and rightly so.....BYE  

...and then what?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

The core of the problem is the split within the UK Government. Trying to square irreconcilable positions and sticking the blame on the EU to cover tracks. A likely pattern until some last minute cobbling. Not a pretty sight but there it is.

I think it's fairly obvious (for reasons mentioned in other threads) that the uk govt. isn't very "split" - other than the best way forward to remain part of the eu, without alienating a large percentage of the electorate....

 

For once, I partly agree with barnier - time for the uk to stop pretending that genuine negotiation is happening - and instead, prepare for a 'no deal' split.

 

Of course, this should have happened a while ago...

[Basil B]

"We seek him here, we seek him there
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere!
Is he in heaven? Or is he in hell?
That demmed Elusive Pimpernel?"

[stephenterry]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

I think it's fairly obvious (for reasons mentioned in other threads) that the uk govt. isn't very "split" - other than the best way forward to remain part of the eu, without alienating a large percentage of the electorate....

 

For once, I partly agree with barnier - time for the uk to stop pretending that genuine negotiation is happening - and instead, prepare for a 'no deal' split.

 

Of course, this should have happened a while ago...

It's all very well declaring a 'no deal' split but parliament would reject it (because it would be economic suicide as 65% of UK exports are with the EU and countries outside the EU that have a trade agreement with the EU and UK - which is really not in the best interests of the UK people).

 

What the government should be doing is to withdraw the red lines, and remain in the common market and customs union (which would resolve the Irish border issue and provide some sanity in this debacle). It is also a fact that the UK exports more to the Netherlands than to the Commonwealth countries combined. But I suppose Fox wants to open up trade talks with the likes of the Falklands and Greenland.    

[dick dasterdly]

20 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

It's all very well declaring a 'no deal' split but parliament would reject it (because it would be economic suicide as 65% of UK exports are with the EU and countries outside the EU that have a trade agreement with the EU and UK - which is really not in the best interests of the UK people).

 

What the government should be doing is to withdraw the red lines, and remain in the common market and customs union (which would resolve the Irish border issue and provide some sanity in this debacle). It is also a fact that the UK exports more to the Netherlands than to the Commonwealth countries combined. But I suppose Fox wants to open up trade talks with the likes of the Falklands and Greenland.    

"It's all very well declaring a 'no deal' split but parliament would reject it (because it would be economic suicide as 65% of UK exports are with the EU and countries outside the EU that have a trade agreement with the EU and UK - which is really not in the best interests of the UK people)."

 

And that is where we differ in opinion, as I'm sure that the uk govt. isn't able to 'read the tea-leaves as to the possible future' - but is already determined to 'leave in name only'.  IMO of course.

 

Other eu countries would also suffer if there was a 'no deal' brexit.

[stephenterry]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"It's all very well declaring a 'no deal' split but parliament would reject it (because it would be economic suicide as 65% of UK exports are with the EU and countries outside the EU that have a trade agreement with the EU and UK - which is really not in the best interests of the UK people)."

 

And that is where we differ in opinion, as I'm sure that the uk govt. isn't able to 'read the tea-leaves as to the possible future' - but is already determined to 'leave in name only'.  IMO of course.

 

Other eu countries would also suffer if there was a 'no deal' brexit.

The UK government is playing catch-up to the ramifications of leaving the EU, since invoking Article 50 . It's only recently that they have released impact studies, which, in their tea-leaf opinion, presents a Brexit where ALL of the people will lose out in the future - economically speaking. The effects of this are happening  right now, e.g. sterling has lost value, imports cost more, as do holidays to the EU, and many UK businesses are either closing down or relocating to the EU. 

 

Of course this is not one way - and EU countries will also suffer especially when imports and exports will fester at the ports awaiting clearance. It's really a potential logistics nightmare that would cripple trade movement to and from the EU and UK.  

 

IMO, the government and also the 'people' should take heed of the opinions of the younger voters; millions of now-eligible students are ready to vote en-mass to remain in the EU. This generation is where British future lies.

[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, petermik said:

Like it or lump it Mr Barnier we are leaving....all your posturing/rhetoric is falling on deaf ears,and rightly so.....BYE  

The EU is asking Britain for their proposal of how they want to proceed, nothing to do with trying to stop them leaving.  Until now the UK has come up with unworkable deals and the EU is saying "Get real" and come back with something workable.  Their position is consistent and they are not prepared to give ground.  The British cannot agree amongst themselves and therefore cannot "get on with it".  Very frustrating for us all but nothing new from the incompetents.. 

[natway09]

Britain seem to want the chicken & the egg. It ain't gonna happen.

If they want to go it alone, then pay your exit fees & cut the umbilical cord.

They may find it a bit cold out there for a while though

[Expatthailover]

7 hours ago, petermik said:

Like it or lump it Mr Barnier we are leaving....all your posturing/rhetoric is falling on deaf ears,and rightly so.....BYE  

We...lol

Hardly a convincing victory and it appears there were many irregularities in the electioneering period in any event.

Little englanders, the blue rinse set and far right boot boys scraped in

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, stephenterry said:

The UK government is playing catch-up to the ramifications of leaving the EU, since invoking Article 50 . It's only recently that they have released impact studies, which, in their tea-leaf opinion, presents a Brexit where ALL of the people will lose out in the future - economically speaking. The effects of this are happening  right now, e.g. sterling has lost value, imports cost more, as do holidays to the EU, and many UK businesses are either closing down or relocating to the EU. 

 

Of course this is not one way - and EU countries will also suffer especially when imports and exports will fester at the ports awaiting clearance. It's really a potential logistics nightmare that would cripple trade movement to and from the EU and UK.  

 

IMO, the government and also the 'people' should take heed of the opinions of the younger voters; millions of now-eligible students are ready to vote en-mass to remain in the EU. This generation is where British future lies.

 

Quite agree. I believe there is a rally 11/12 June in London to urge a re-think.

 

It's clear both sides lied during the hustings, that neither had really done the detailed research and what little they had done they only disclosed if favorable to their agenda, and that many people voted without being given a chance to grasp the real outcomes of staying or leaving.

 

I here a lot of leavers complaining that this is still being debated. But most of them can't articulate why they voted to leave other than some general comment about "not being ruled by foreigners, wanting less immigrants (most of the ones they are thinking about are actually British citizens!),  and wanting to be governed by people they voted for - clearly never voted for their MEP!

 

Yes, Merkel was wrong to open the flood doors and encourage illegal immigrants and asylum seekers as if she was head of EU and then demand everyone helped clean the shit she created. Yes, the groups of politicians in EU determined to try and force further much closer political union, without bothering to ask the people what they want, but leaving is like taking your ball and going home because a couple of the opposing team upset you!

 

At the end of the day, if you're in a club and others are trying to change the rules and ideas and you don't agree you have two choices. Fight and campaign against those choices or leave. But we seem to be leaving before bothering to fight.

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

9 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Mr Barnier speaks with forked tongue. If it cannot be extended to a non - member, why are you trying to keep the UK tied to the ECJ ?

 

This is correct and has been since day one.

 

When you leave a club, the clubs rules no longer apply to you, that includes the ECJ.

 

But let's cut to the chase, negotiations are non -- existent because the only thing that the EU / Barnier wishes to negotiate is keeping the UK tied at the waist to Brussels, under the ECJ and to continue handing over Billions of ££££££££££££'s for the pleasure.

Are you just being wilfully disingenuous or do you actually not understand what is being said here? Right now, the UK and the EU are negotiating the terms of the withdrawal agreement. If there are disagreements or disputes over the withdrawal terms, there has to be a judicial body that both parties agree will act as an arbiter to resolve such matters. The EU wants this to be the ECJ, the UK government does not. Nobody is talking about the UK being tied to the ECJ after withdrawal, it's just a question of who mediates between the two sides while the withdrawal negotiations are going on. 

 

What Barnier is saying though, is that the UK cannot both withdraw completely from the EU and remain part of internal EU agreements on things like security, since these are agreements that only apply to EU member states.

[candide]

11 hours ago, petermik said:

Like it or lump it Mr Barnier we are leaving....all your posturing/rhetoric is falling on deaf ears,and rightly so.....BYE  

The lesson to draw from this story is very simple: a small

 country does not have enough negotiating power to impose any condition while the big ones (or big unions such as the EU) can. So you want to leave negotiations with the EU. What's next? Negotiate with the USA. Do you think Trump will not impose his conditions? So you will suggest to leave negotiations too. Negotiate with Putin, with China? Good luck!

Of course no hard Brexiter will answer this post because they don't like to be confronted with reality.

Edited May 27, 2018 by candide

[Enoon]

18 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The reason Cameron agreed to the referendum was to try to prevent the very same split in the Tory party.

 

Now the Tories are at each other’s throats over how to proceed.

 

A gaping open goal Corbyn is unable to exploit.

 

 

The Labour party cannot be seen to exploit anything or anyone.

 

Its job will be to pick up the pieces after the Conservative Party has finished presenting itself as fractured, unworthy and incompetent to the electorate.

 

Finished making it clear that, from the beginning, it has foisted its problem, its internal argument, onto the Nation (and done it nothing but ill).

 

It has to be seen to "ride to the rescue" and do what is best for the country, rather than what any partisan "faction"(mentioning no names) has demanded.

 

With a heavy heart it will be compelled to "disappoint" a sizeable number of people. By that time they will be a sizeable minority and "what the people said" (an age ago) will be irrelevant.

 

That is what Government is supposed to do.

 

It's all a question of.......timing.

 

 

 

 

[The Renegade]

3 hours ago, Enoon said:

It has to be seen to "ride to the rescue" and do what is best for the country, rather than what any partisan "faction"(mentioning no names) has demanded.

You mean like the EU has done in Italy ? Rode to the rescue of Italy ? 

 

Di Maio summed it up perfectly.

 

Quote

Luigi Di Maio, who heads the M5S, also criticised the decision.

“In this country, you can be a condemned criminal, a tax fraud convict, under investigation for corruption and be a minister … but if you criticise Europe, you cannot be an economy minister,” he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/italys-pm-designate-giuseppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

 

An Ex IMF Stooge is now being parachuted in to form a Pro EU Puppet Government.

 

The fallout from this is going to be far and wide.

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

You mean like the EU has done in Italy ? Rode to the rescue of Italy ? 

 

Di Maio summed it up perfectly.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/italys-pm-designate-giuseppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

 

An Ex IMF Stooge is now being parachuted in to form a Pro EU Puppet Government.

 

The fallout from this is going to be far and wide.

Who rejected Savona?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Who rejected Savona?

Matarella, the president 

 

Savona is an 81 year old who should be getting care in the community not running the ITalian economy 

[malagateddy]

Matarella, the president 
 
Savona is an 81 year old who should be getting care in the community not running the ITalian economy 

Face facts..he is very much ANTI EU..so the brussels lovers in Italy said no..



Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Guest]

Seems like the Brexit is working fine for the British Brexit supporter expats.

 

UK has a looming labour shortage as workers from EU countries no longer wish to go there. There is a lot of work available for manual labours. 

 

Meanwhile as the Pound has dropped down, the pensions of Brexit expats has dropped to unsustainable levels. What a perfect time to go back home and start working again.

 

The ability to get decent healthcare might be compromised if there is not enough qualified doctors and nurses on British hospitals, but at the end, it also will support UK economy. Elderly people will live shorter lives and the reserved pension moneys can be spent elsewhere.

 

Win-win situation.

 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-16/britain-s-hiring-problems-are-widening-as-eu-workers-stay-away?utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit&utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic

 

 

[The Renegade]

One look in the direction of Italy tells you all you need to know about the EU.

 

Where are all the remainers who keep telling us that the EU is such a wonderful Democratic Institution.

 

Quote

In this country, you can be a condemned criminal, a tax fraud convict, under investigation for corruption and be a minister … but if you criticise Europe, you cannot be an economy minister,”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/italys-pm-designate-giuseppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

 

Will Barnier have the guts to even show his face again ?

[candide]

14 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

One look in the direction of Italy tells you all you need to know about the EU.

 

Where are all the remainers who keep telling us that the EU is such a wonderful Democratic Institution.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/italys-pm-designate-giuseppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

 

Will Barnier have the guts to even show his face again ?

So what? A pro-EU president refuses to approve an anti-EU minister, and Conte takes advantage of it to leave the trap he has fallen in (In case you have not read the article you link, the trap was to be the PM of an ungouvernable coalition of opposed parties). 

Why the hell should Barnier be ashamed of it?

[nauseus]

22 hours ago, candide said:

The lesson to draw from this story is very simple: a small

 country does not have enough negotiating power to impose any condition while the big ones (or big unions such as the EU) can. So you want to leave negotiations with the EU. What's next? Negotiate with the USA. Do you think Trump will not impose his conditions? So you will suggest to leave negotiations too. Negotiate with Putin, with China? Good luck!

Of course no hard Brexiter will answer this post because they don't like to be confronted with reality.

The term "hard Brexit" only appeared after the result, which was so "hard" an surprising for remainers to take. I will answer but it's difficult as your point rather unclear. Small countries around the world can successfully negotiate with much larger ones but the big difference here is that the UK is in the unique and unfortunate position of attempting to extricate itself from a so-called union, desperately trying to preserve itself and actually increase its membership, rather than lose an important net contributor. This is not the same as negotiating a new trade deal.

 

"So you want to leave negotiations with the EU", by that what do you mean really?? The UK is wasting its time trying to negotiate with the EU unless the UK (bottom) red line is clearly defined (i.e. willing to walk away).

 

This UK government has been sloppy and is obviously not serious about the task it has taken on. A strong PM is required but I don't see any candidates.

 

If the EU changes its stance then it will only be at the last minute - the EU is trying to thwart the result of the referendum as they have done with all of the others - even more reason to leave.   

 

  

[vogie]

22 hours ago, candide said:

The lesson to draw from this story is very simple: a small

 country does not have enough negotiating power to impose any condition while the big ones (or big unions such as the EU) can. So you want to leave negotiations with the EU. What's next? Negotiate with the USA. Do you think Trump will not impose his conditions? So you will suggest to leave negotiations too. Negotiate with Putin, with China? Good luck!

Of course no hard Brexiter will answer this post because they don't like to be confronted with reality.

This brexiteer will answer your post, if you bother to watch it.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The term "hard Brexit" only appeared after the result, which was so "hard" an surprising for remainers to take. I will answer but it's difficult as your point rather unclear. Small countries around the world can successfully negotiate with much larger ones but the big difference here is that the UK is in the unique and unfortunate position of attempting to extricate itself from a so-called union, desperately trying to preserve itself and actually increase its membership, rather than lose an important net contributor. This is not the same as negotiating a new trade deal.

 

"So you want to leave negotiations with the EU", by that what do you mean really?? The UK is wasting its time trying to negotiate with the EU unless the UK (bottom) red line is clearly defined (i.e. willing to walk away).

 

This UK government has been sloppy and is obviously not serious about the task it has taken on. A strong PM is required but I don't see any candidates.

 

If the EU changes its stance then it will only be at the last minute - the EU is trying to thwart the result of the referendum as they have done with all of the others - even more reason to leave.   

 

  

The idea that this was going to be easy was not invented after the referendum, it was a clear statement of the Brexit leaders.

 

Not working out so easy after all.

 

Meanwhile Brexiteers, yourself included, continue with the folly that a bird in the bush is worth 27 birds in hand.

Even though you’ve no idea where the bush is, let alone if it has any birds in it.

 

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

This brexiteer will answer your post, if you bother to watch it.

 

I thought JRM entirely rational and reasonable. 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I thought JRM entirely rational and reasonable. 

Well when he mentions ‘interim periods  that may be upto 10 years’ he’s starting to reveal a reality few Brexiteers will support.

 

10 years from now very many Brexit voters will be pushing up the daisies.

 

Even J R-M understands the implications of that.