Trump says has power to pardon himself; critics disagree

[webfact]

Trump says has power to pardon himself; critics disagree

 

U.S. President Donald Trump talks to the media after meeting with North Korea's envoy Kim Yong Chol at the White House in Washington, U.S., June 1, 2018. REUTERS/Leah Millis

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Monday said he had committed no wrongdoing but has the "absolute" power to pardon himself, echoing an sweeping argument put forth by his lawyers amid the U.S. special counsel's investigation into alleged Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S. election.

 

In the memo to U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller, which was sent in January and reported on by the New York Times on Saturday, Trump's lawyers argued the president could not have obstructed the investigation, given the powers granted to him by the U.S. Constitution.

 

One of Trump's lawyers on Sunday also spoke of Trump's broad claim to power, saying the president probably could pardon himself but was unlikely to do so.

 

"As has been stated by numerous legal scholars, I have the absolute right to PARDON myself, but why would I do that when I have done nothing wrong?" Trump said in a Twitter post on Monday, reiterating his claim that the Russia investigation was a "witch hunt."

"The appointment of the Special Counsel is totally UNCONSTITUTIONAL," Trump said in another post.

 

Several pardons already issued by Trump also have raised questions about his use of the presidential pardon power. Last week he pardoned Dinesh D'Souza, a conservative pundit convicted of campaign finance crimes, and last year he pardoned former Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio, who campaigned for Trump before being convicted in a case regarding racial profiling.

 

Critics say Trump has undermined the rule of law with pardons based on political considerations.

 

The rebukes came again on Monday as several Democratic lawmakers pushed back against Trump's claim and noted that Mueller's investigation has already led to multiple indictments, including against several Trump aides who have pleaded guilty.

 

"YOU'RE NOT A KING"

"You can’t pardon yourself," Democratic U.S. Representative Ted Deutch said in response to Trump on Twitter. "Let me remind you of something, we don’t live in a monarchy and you are not a king."

 

Harvard Law School constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe called Trump's position "ludicrous" and "legal fantasy."

 

Trump first opened the door to what he said was his "complete power to pardon" last July in a series of tweets that appeared to be in response to a report that Trump and his legal team had examined presidential powers to pardon Trump aides, family members and possibly even himself.

 

On a Sunday, Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani told on ABC's "This Week" program it was an "open question" as to whether the president could pardon himself but that Trump "has no intention" of doing so. Giuliani said the U.S. Constitution, which gives a president the authority to issue pardons, "doesn't say he can't."

 

The 20-page letter from Trump's lawyers to Mueller in January came in response to repeated requests by the special counsel's office asking to interview Trump, according to the Times.

 

Russia has denied U.S. intelligence agencies' assessment that Moscow sought to interfere with the 2016 U.S. election to boost Donald Trump's prospects of becoming president. Trump has also said there was no collusion by his campaign.

 

Some of Mueller's actions remain under seal but so far five people have pleaded guilty, including former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn and longtime Manafort business partner Rick Gates.

 

Mueller's team has also charged 13 Russians and three Russian companies as well as Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who has not pleaded guilty.

 

(Reporting by Susan Heavey and Doina Chiacu; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama and Bill Trott)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-06-05

[YetAnother]

29 minutes ago, webfact said:

Critics say Trump has undermined the rule of law with pardons

presidential pardons are an abomination to real democracy; totally undermines the judicial branch

[Boon Mee]

Trump could indeed legally pardon himself if he wishes to but it's a moot point. 

No cause or reason to. 

[Get Real]

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president. However, one thing still stands. He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

[mikebike]

10 minutes ago, Get Real said:

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president. However, one thing still stands. He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

He did not run out of an overwhelming sense of altruism either... pure narcissism.

 

Yes he is unaware... he believes POTUS = SUPREME RULER.

Edited June 5, 2018 by mikebike

[attrayant]

4 minutes ago, Get Real said:

I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money.

 

Just because somebody has fame and [a small] fortune, that means they don't want more?

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, Get Real said:

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president. However, one thing still stands. He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

 

Not a fan, either.  Never have been a fan of The Donald.  But I am a fan of the 2 benefits he has brought to the American people:

 

1) He has opened the door for an outsider to win the presidency.  His oversized ego and his tough skin are the only reasons he survived where other outsiders couldn't.

 

2) His lack of finesse and experience in politics has laid open just how corrupt the system is, including characters like Cohen and Bannon, et.al. who make fortunes selling access and performing dirty deeds.  A more experienced politician could have kept it all under wraps, like they have for decades.

 

I hope he makes it through the first term, not because I'm a fan.  But to keep the door open for better outsiders to follow him. 

 

I'd hoped he'd play the role of poacher turned gamekeeper, but it looks like he's playing the role of poacher, gaming the system to legalize poaching.  Which, in itself may stir up enough ire on the part of the masses that the pitchforks come out.  Because the threat of pitchforks is the only thing that's got even a chance of cleaning up the corruption.  Not that I'd like to see us use the pitchforks.  But pulling them out and polishing them up may be enough...

 

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by impulse

[Briggsy]

Republican Representatives and Senators cowed into pathetic silence once again. The system of checks and balances thus fails once again.

[JimmyJ]

" Trump says has power to pardon himself "

 

He does have the power to do one thing for himself, and I'm sure he does (small hands or not) -

I can't imagine he's had sex with his wife for a year or more, and it's too difficult to get hookers or porn stars into the White House.

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Not a fan, either.  Never have been a fan of The Donald.  But I am a fan of the 2 benefits he has brought to the American people:

 

1) He has opened the door for an outsider to win the presidency.  His oversized ego and his tough skin are the only reasons he survived where other outsiders couldn't.

 

2) His lack of finesse and experience in politics has laid open just how corrupt the system is, including characters like Cohen and Bannon, et.al. who make fortunes selling access and performing dirty deeds.

 

I hope he makes it through the first term, not because I'm a fan.  But to keep the door open for better outsiders to follow him. 

 

I'd hoped he's play the role of poacher turned gamekeeper, but it looks like he's playing the role of poacher, gaming the system to legalize poaching.  Which, in itself may stir up enough ire on the part of the masses that the pitchforks come out.  Because the threat of pitchforks is the only thing that's got even a chance of cleaning up the corruption.  Not that I'd like to see us use the pitchforks.  But pulling them out and polishing them up may be enough...

 

 

Yeah, the "outsider" experiment seems to be working well, why not wish for more?

 

There are several legitimate, bipartisan, attempts at cleaning up corruption based around getting money out of politics which seem to be less of a gamble and infinitely more likely to succeed.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

" Trump says has power to pardon himself "

 

He does have the power to do one thing for himself, and I'm sure he does (small hands or not) -

I can't imagine he's had sex with his wife for a year or more, and it's too difficult to get hookers or porn stars into the White House.

 

Google "Fiddle and Faddle".

[attrayant]

10 minutes ago, impulse said:

His oversized ego and his tough skin

 

Are you serious?

[riclag]

36 minutes ago, Get Real said:

He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

I see the opposite. I see him totally aware of his position. The economy and his foreign policies  are just what he promised to address . I can understand your objection to his  policies  though ,especially if you have a difference of opinion and political ideology 

[bristolboy]

32 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Yeah, the "outsider" experiment seems to be working well, why not wish for more?

 

There are several legitimate, bipartisan, attempts at cleaning up corruption based around getting money out of politics which seem to be less of a gamble and infinitely more likely to succeed.

Can you list the "legitimate bipartisan attempts'? 

Do recall that it was the conservative justices on the supreme court who opened the floodgates to unlimited political donations and ruled out any meaningful possibility of controls. How are these alleged bipartisan attempts going to circumvent this? 

[bristolboy]

56 minutes ago, Get Real said:

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president. However, one thing still stands. He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

Wow, He donated his salary to charity. Any decent person with a modicum of a sense of morality would have put his business holdings in a blind trust Instead Trump and family are profiting from his Presidency.

[alanrchase]

The topic should not be seen as anyone's like or dislike of Trump. The topic is about whether the US President should have the power to pardon themselves. The answer should be a resounding NO.

[spidermike007]

I would like nothing more, than for this clown to attempt to pardon himself. It would be the first time in history it had ever been attempted. And it would lead to his impeachment, without any question. Already he is setting the bar as low as it can possibly be set, when it comes to the politically motivated pardons he has issued to date. But, we have come to expect that from this hateful huckster. He lowers the bar, on a daily basis. 

 

Little Don. 12 hours a day on the Tiny Don show. 6 hours a day watching Fox news. One hour a day running the country. The art of I cannot make a deal to save my life! 

[Chomper Higgot]

52 minutes ago, riclag said:

I see the opposite. I see him totally aware of his position. The economy and his foreign policies  are just what he promised to address . I can understand your objection to his  policies  though ,especially if you have a difference of opinion and political ideology 

I seem to have a different political ideology - I firmly believe nobody, especially anyone wielding political power, should be above the law.

 

Do you agree?

[mikebike]

59 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Can you list the "legitimate bipartisan attempts'? 

Do recall that it was the conservative justices on the supreme court who opened the floodgates to unlimited political donations and ruled out any meaningful possibility of controls. How are these alleged bipartisan attempts going to circumvent this? 

I'll let you find your own lists... lol!

 

The most promising does an end run around congress and the supreme court and is attempting to get the numbers for a Convention of the States.

 

10% of states have passed the necessary legislation. 25% more have it somewhere in their houses atm. 66% required.

 

Long but promising road.

Edited June 5, 2018 by mikebike

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, mikebike said:

I'll let you find your own lists... lol!

 

The most promising does an end run around congress and the supreme court and is attempting to get the numbers for a Convention of the States.

 

10% of states have passed the necessary legislation. 25% more have it somewhere in their houses atm. 66% required.

 

Long but promising road.

IN other words, you can clain whatever you like and it's the responsibility of others to provide the proof. Somehow, that doesn't seem quite honorable.

And this attempt to get the numbers for a convention of the states is about reforming the law on political spending? Really?

First off, that makes no sense. If you want to address a specific problem you would go the amendment route. A convention is designed to do massive wide ranging reform. And the only movement I've seen is one sponsored, by the Kochs who spend hundreds of million now on political campaigns.

,

"Taking advantage of almost a decade of political victories in state legislatures across the country, conservative advocacy groups are quietly marshaling support for an event unprecedented in the nation’s history: a convention of the 50 states, summoned to consider amending the Constitution.

The groups are an amalgam of free-market, low-tax and small-government proponents, often funded by corporations and deeply conservative supporters like the billionaire Koch brothers and Donors Trust, whose contributors are mostly anonymous. They want an amendment to require a balanced federal budget, an idea many conservatives have embraced, many economists disdain and Congress has failed to endorse for decades."

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/us/inside-the-conservative-push-for-states-to-amend-the-constitution.html

The only reference I can find to support for a constitutional convention for campaign finance reform is from the Occupy Wall Street people. Doesn't seem exactly bipartisan to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_reform_in_the_United_States

 

You really should learn to distinguish between wishful thinking and reality.

[neeray]

2 hours ago, Get Real said:

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president. However, one thing still stands. He is totally unaware how to deal with the position he´s in.

"did nothing wrong", hmm, that remains to be seen. He made an effort to win for his super-sized ego, the money is chump change to him. Yes, he is very unaware. The position of POTUS is much different than being a real estate hustler.

But he will be more famous when it's over. Famous for being a lying, infidel playboy, famous for lying period, famous for being a white supremacist and bigot, famous for ruining the world economy and given time, famous for starting a war (or three).

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, neeray said:

"did nothing wrong", hmm, that remains to be seen. He made an effort to win for his super-sized ego, the money is chump change to him. Yes, he is very unaware. The position of POTUS is much different than being a real estate hustler.

But he will be more famous when it's over. Famous for being a lying, infidel playboy, famous for lying period, famous for being a white supremacist and bigot, famous for ruining the world economy and given time, famous for starting a war (or three).

Nobody has seen any evidence that Trump is the Billionaire he claims he is.

[bristolboy]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Nobody has seen any evidence that Trump is the Billionaire he claims he is.

Given Trump's coziness with autocrats who command billions and billions of their governments' revenue, it's a good bet that by or shortly after he leaves office, he will be whether or not he was one before.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Given Trump's coziness with autocrats who command billions and billions of their governments' revenue, it's a good bet that by or shortly after he leaves office, he will be whether or not he was one before.

I think that depends on how it is he leaves office, but yes I believe you’ve summed his plan up nicely.

[newnative]

Can he pardon himself for being a moron?

[JimmyJ]

2 hours ago, Get Real said:

As much as a actually hate this man, I do believe he did nothing wrong. I mean he didn´t need to win the presidency for publicity or money. He had both. He also denied salury from his position as president.

There's no evidence to date (I don't think I missed it) that Trump has actually donated his Presidential salary to charity.

 

David Fahrenthold got a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting regarding Trump's past false claims of charitable donations:

 

"Shortly after the Iowa caucuses, David Fahrenthold set out to learn what had become of the $6 million Donald Trump said he’d raised for veterans, including $1 million of his own money. Fahrenthold soon discovered that the candidate had stopped distributing money, despite having given out just a fraction of what he raised..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/david-fahrenthold-wins-pulitzer-prize-2017-winner-finalists/?utm_term=.c4add8660da2

Edited June 5, 2018 by JimmyJ

[Get Real]

25 minutes ago, neeray said:

"did nothing wrong", hmm, that remains to be seen. He made an effort to win for his super-sized ego, the money is chump change to him. Yes, he is very unaware. The position of POTUS is much different than being a real estate hustler.

But he will be more famous when it's over. Famous for being a lying, infidel playboy, famous for lying period, famous for being a white supremacist and bigot, famous for ruining the world economy and given time, famous for starting a war (or three).

I agree with almost everything you say, and I am also sure that he will finally ruin the economy, if the world will give him the time he need. However, at this time 2017 was a fantastic year with a very positive development of economy, work and trust in the market for USA. It was also very good for many other countries, and I am sure that Trump is not the one that can take all the credit for that.

Anyway. This happened 2017 and 2018 is looking out to be quite okey too:
The GDP went up by 3.2%, unemployment at a record low of under 5% and the dollar emerging as the world’s strongest currency.
Things have actually almost never looked better and the new tax cuts have brought corporate tax rates in the US down from 35% to 21% and is making american industry, especially US manufacturing, very competitive.
 

 

24 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nobody has seen any evidence that Trump is the Billionaire he claims he is.

President Donald Trump’s net worth has fallen to its lowest point since the 2016 presidential election, according to a new appraisal by Bloomberg. It currently sits at $2.8 billion, down $100 million from last year.
http://time.com/5296830/donald-trump-net-worth-2018/

 

Evidence or not evidence? I don´t know, but then I suppose there are questions to ask about all people that there are information about net worth of.

[Get Real]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Wow, He donated his salary to charity. Any decent person with a modicum of a sense of morality would have put his business holdings in a blind trust Instead Trump and family are profiting from his Presidency.

So, I suppose that´s what you would du, because you are a descent person with a sense of morality.
In that case you would be totally unique, due to that there are not a single person and their family that hasn´t been profiting while beeing president for a country.
Almost like I feel the need to ask for your autograph.

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

I hope he makes it through the first term

He will most definately do that.

[wwest5829]

3 hours ago, YetAnother said:

presidential pardons are an abomination to real democracy; totally undermines the judicial branch

As The Donald has used the pardon power politically, I take your point and agree. In recognition that the justice system is fallible and later evidence (new DNA availability, for example) has shown innocent people have been found guilty by the system, I want this Executive Branch power preserved.