Australia - Departure Prohibition Order

[scorecard]

12 minutes ago, lionsincity said:

wow not only has Australia turned into a awful nanny state, now it has  become a draconian nightmare too.

 

 

 Not really, they just have appropriate laws that fathers have to support their kids and it's monitored seriously. That's how it should be. Why should innocent kids suffer lack of necessities, food, roof over their head etc., because of derelict fathers?

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by scorecard

[Will27]

7 minutes ago, simple1 said:

FYI...

 

In the first 10 months of this financial year, Departure Prohibition Orders (DPO’s) resulted in 358 people – or more than one a day - being stopped at a departure gate where they were given the choice to either pay up or turn back.

 

https://www.mhs.gov.au/media-releases/2018-05-27-travel-bans-help-recover-child-support-debts

Thanks for that, but the debt was paid in full by those examples quoted.

 

I don't think the debt has to be paid in full in all circumstances.

 

From the CSA:

 

Revoking a DPO

Once a DPO is made, the Registrar must revoke it in certain circumstances and may revoke or vary it in other circumstances (section 72I). The Registrar can revoke or vary a DPO in response to representations made by the child support debtor or because of the Registrar becoming aware of new information.

When the Registrar must revoke a DPO

The Registrar must revoke a DPO when both of the following 2 tests are satisfied.

The first test has 2 alternative parts. Either:

• the child support liability has been wholly discharged or satisfactory arrangements have been made to discharge the debt,

[Blue Muton]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 Not really, they just have appropriate laws that fathers have to support their kids and it's monitored seriously. That's how it should be. Why should innocent kids suffer lack of necessities, food, roof over their head etc., because of derelict fathers?

 

Quite, and why should other people pay for someone else's children?

 

Although in thie case of the OP there seems to be a dispute involved rather than simply dereliction of responsibility.

[4MyEgo]

You have got to love the Child Support Agency and HATE the X enough to turn the balance of power around, but are you man enough.

 

I have been where you are coming from, where my X tried twice to stop me taking our daughter to Thailand for a 4 week holiday twice, through CSA and the Passport issuing people after she signed the application form the first time and the 2nd was her suggesting that I wasn't going to bring our daughter back. We had her under a shared care agreement sealed by the family court with overseas trips allowed provided I gave the appropriate notice and itinerary with contact numbers, suffice to say when my daughter came here twice, she never called her mother, her prerogative, she is now 21 and we get on like a house on fire 555

 

This is not about me, so enough on that, but I had my years of battles with CSA and the first thing you have to do is fight back and when I say fight back, you have to go for the Mrs jugular and don't stop until you get what you want, I called it getting even with a few upper cuts here and there that she didn't see coming.

 

Put the marriage on hold and the future in-laws on hold, you can meet them on Skype and if they understand the basics of laws your all and good, this may also be a good way to test your intending wife's patience, DO NOT BE IN A RUSH, as your causing enough stress for yourself and if your not familiar with the Thai's, suggest you get busy reading TVF posts on Thai women as it might just open your eyes a bit, the way I see things, woman are just that, me first, women 2nd, not just Thai women and my Thai wife understands my logic, regardless of what some armchair warriors here might say in there defence.

 

The first thing you have to do is study the Child Support Legislation as knowledge is power, if your not one who is prepared to do that, then your toast, suffice to say you will then need to go and see a Family Law Specialist, and depending if your in Sydney I could recommend one that would settle things very quickly after an initial consultation.

 

If you study the legislation you will know how to create a hell of a lot of problems for her through the CSA.

 

Just one example would be that you can have her assessed on her "potential working capacity"if she doesn't work and has some qualifications, I did this to my X and she was filthy as, as it reduced my child support payment to half, once that took effect I became a company that earn't just under the CSA threshold, now before anyone gets up on their high horse, under "shared care" both parents incomes are assessed and then whoever earns the highest amounts gets offset against the lowest amount, now the fact is she never earned more than the threshold from day one, so I was paying all the child support wasn't I, so I had her assessed on her qualification's and she failed to satisfy them as to why she wasn't working in that field of her qualification's, so she got lumbered with an annual salary determined by the CSA that she was capable of earning and like I said after that I became a company and NEVER paid child support ever again, the beauty of it was that she had to pay me....lol, not that I saw a cent and like someone said, CSA are man haters and stand by the woman's side, but I wasn't going to waste anymore of my time, message went across load and clear, Fark with me, and watch me Fark back !.

 

Not saying this is right, but when its a one way street when it should be a two way street, you have to do what you have to do, oh and that didn't mean that my daughter missed out, because I would spend on her, after all she is my kid too, and it was better seeing her with things as opposed too 3 year old school uniforms to short or tight to wear, worn shoes, while the X was wearing things to a T and throwing it in my face when she would collect the little one, which I stopped when she started school because picking up and dropping her off at school meant she wouldn't get that opportunity again, and I wouldn't take her calls, haven't spoken to her for over a decade, just the way I like it.

 

What makes it even better for me is the fact that I know my daughter cannot stand her own mother, because she knows she is a liar, I had nothing to o with that, the truth can sometimes be right in front of you if you are steered in that direction and are prepared to accept what you find.

 

Seriously you need to become knowledgeable on CSA legislation or see a Family Law Specialist, and when I say a Family Law Specialist, I mean those exact words, because lawyers, solicitors do not have that expertise and it will benefit you in the long run and save you costs, the initial consultation of about an hour will tell you if your paddling up stream and how and if possible it will be to be paddling down stream. Apart from that you'll be up Sheet Creek IMO, but "up to you" as the Thai's say.  

 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[simple1]

12 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Thanks for that, but the debt was paid in full by those examples quoted.

 

I don't think the debt has to be paid in full in all circumstances.

 

From the CSA:

 

Revoking a DPO

Once a DPO is made, the Registrar must revoke it in certain circumstances and may revoke or vary it in other circumstances (section 72I). The Registrar can revoke or vary a DPO in response to representations made by the child support debtor or because of the Registrar becoming aware of new information.

When the Registrar must revoke a DPO

The Registrar must revoke a DPO when both of the following 2 tests are satisfied.

The first test has 2 alternative parts. Either:

• the child support liability has been wholly discharged or satisfactory arrangements have been made to discharge the debt,

OK, but travel stop would apply in the circumstances provided by the OP

[Will27]

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

OK, but travel stop would apply in the circumstances provided by the OP

AFAIK, once the DPO is in place, you're prohibited from leaving the country until

the debt is paid in full or an arrangement is put in place by the CSA.

 

Obviously, being stopped at an airport, you'd imagine the debt having to be paid in full

as I can't see someone making an arrangement to pay whilst you're being held at the airport.

 

The bottom line is not to let it get to the stage where a DPO is issued.

[Oxx]

18 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

The dispute is that I bought the ex a new car for $25k a couple of years ago on the basis it would be offset against the CSA debt. Then she turned around and refused to do this, saying she wanted both the car and the cash,  so I stopped making CSA payments and the debt has grown to $45k

 

So, the dispute was about whether to include the value of the car ($25k) in the payments, but once the debt hit $25k the OP didn't start paying again.  That's just nasty and irresponsible.  After all, this is depriving the child who is no part of the dispute.  I feel sorry for any woman who would marry a man like this and for any children they may have.

[Mattd]

I would imagine that the OP could potentially also have issues in changing his new partner's visa status given the issues with CSA and the DPO that is in place, as his means to support his new partner could be in doubt?

[Will27]

2 minutes ago, Mattd said:

I would imagine that the OP could potentially also have issues in changing his new partner's visa status given the issues with CSA and the DPO that is in place, as his means to support his new partner could be in doubt?

I seriously doubt that it would have any affect on a partner visa TBH.

[bristolgeoff]

I knew aus was very big brother for many years.did not know it was that bad.

[Oxx]

6 minutes ago, bristolgeoff said:

I knew aus was very big brother for many years.did not know it was that bad.

 

I think you meant "that good".  It's seriously addressing the issue of feckless parents like the OP.

[PJPom]

Simple answer is pay what you owe, I had dealings with CSA many years ago and found them to be very fair with no bias.

You are contemplating starting anew with another commitment so wouldn’t it be better to start with no problems.

Your child, children , are your joint responsibility unless you want to sever your relationship with them, if that is your wish then live with the consequences.

[Will27]

26 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

I think you meant "that good".  It's seriously addressing the issue of feckless parents like the OP.

If Thailand had a decent child support system, perhaps we wouldn't have so many desperate single mums.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Will27

[Tongjaw]

21 minutes ago, bristolgeoff said:

I knew aus was very big brother for many years.did not know it was that bad.

From your name Bristolgeoff I take it your English. Well the UK child maintenance service are just as proficient at getting unpaid debts repaid. In my honest opinion it's a good thing. Why should children suffer because of wayward fathers and in some cases mothers not taking responsibility? I was divorced many years ago and paid child support and education fees all the way through till my kids graduated uni. To this day I have a wonderful relationship with my kids from my ex and they also have a great relationship with my new wife and kids.

 

Just some of the things the UK Child Maintenace Service can do to you for non-payments.

*take the money owed direct from your bank account, building society, or directly from your earnings. They dont even need to apply to the courts for that one.

 

If they feel they need to go further to get the child support paId back they will go to the courts.

*ask bailiffs or sheriff officers to go to your home and seize your belongings, and then sell them to cover the child maintenance that you owe

*putting a ‘charge’ against your property or some other asset you own so that you can’t sell or remortgage it without the child maintenance you owe being paid off first

*forcing the sale of your property or other asset and collecting the money from the sale to pay your child maintenance *taking away your driving licence.

* sending you to prison.

 

Yep big brother is everywhere, pay your dues and you'll be ok.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325228/if-you-dont-pay-child-maintenance.pdf

[Stevemercer]

You must formally write to the agency that issued the order to request a Statement of Reasons for the decision under the ADJR Act (Administrative Decisions Judicial Review Act). They are obliged to provide you with one within 28 days. This is always the first step in any dispute against the bureaucracy in Australia. You must do this asap.

 

In parallel, you and your future wife need to make a statutory declaration stating your intentions to marry in Australia and (presumably) Thailand. Your fiancee must state the names of her immediate family who will help arrange and attend the Thai marriage ceremony. You must state your intentions to first meet with the in-laws to formally declare your intention to marry and to make sure they are comfortable with you (and vice versa). No decent Thai woman would marry without the agreement of her parents. This is Thai culture.

 

You can download statutory declaration forms from the Australian immigration website. Use these.

 

You must attach photos and any other evidence that you and your fiancee are an actual couple (photos, shared addresses etc). These are the sort of things you need to collect if your wife was applying for a dependent visa.

 

You must submit this with a request for one off permission to visit Thailand for max. 2 weeks and offer to meet any conditions the department may see fit to impose.

 

In the meantime, you should have received the Statement or Reasons for the original decision. If they knock you back, you must then seek another Statement of Reasons for the knock back. Compare the 2 statements and there are bound to be some discrepancies that could be the basis of legal action to get the order overturned. Hopefully, it won't get this far.

 

The approach is to make life difficult for the bureaucrats by taking a legalistic approach and making them do the work to justify their decisions.

 

At the end of the day, they will not be able to refuse a visit on 'humanitarian' grounds, but you must make your case on the statutory declaration forms and attach enough evidence to demonstrate that you are a serious couple and you and your wife need to square the intended marriage off with the in-laws.

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Stevemercer

[lionsincity]

3 hours ago, bristolgeoff said:

I knew aus was very big brother for many years.did not know it was that bad.

 

yes it's got out of control.........and what is really sad, is a lot of aussies just believe their government and go along with it.

 

 

[Titan1962]

The shoe is on the other foot so to speak for me. Separated from my wife 3 yrs ago,gave her all the money we had and furniture,and car. At that time I was working and agreed to pay her a cash amount monthly to help her get back on her feet. I got involved with a Thai lady and moved overseas,still working and meeting my obligation towards the monthly payment. After a yr and a half was laid off due to a downturn in the industry I worked in. I had managed to save a few dollars in the meantime, I contacted my wife to explain the situation,no further income on my behalf. So I stopped paying the money agreed to. She contacted CSA. They garnished my bank account in Aus,the money I had there was Incase my kids need assistance. They are 35 and 26, received an email from CSA to say the amount is still owing. 

Explained the whole thing to them,but their hands are tied as long as my ex is wanting the cash. Now I am afraid to return to Aus Incase I cant return back to Thailand. It’s funny how things can come back and bite you in the arse big time if you don’t cover all your bases. PS I am on a retirement visa with no assets in Australia, but would like to go home and visit the kids. I am at present paying what I can afford to the CSA on a monthly basis, but not game to take the chance on going home.Also asked my ex for a divorce after 3 yrs,reply not untill I get my money. 

[theoldgit]

This isn’t really visa related, and most of the comments are really critical of the op for the position he’s put himself in, so as it’s to do with his home country, I’ll move it to that forum.

Good luck

[Will27]

52 minutes ago, Titan1962 said:

The shoe is on the other foot so to speak for me. Separated from my wife 3 yrs ago,gave her all the money we had and furniture,and car. At that time I was working and agreed to pay her a cash amount monthly to help her get back on her feet. I got involved with a Thai lady and moved overseas,still working and meeting my obligation towards the monthly payment. After a yr and a half was laid off due to a downturn in the industry I worked in. I had managed to save a few dollars in the meantime, I contacted my wife to explain the situation,no further income on my behalf. So I stopped paying the money agreed to. She contacted CSA. They garnished my bank account in Aus,the money I had there was Incase my kids need assistance. They are 35 and 26, received an email from CSA to say the amount is still owing. 

Explained the whole thing to them,but their hands are tied as long as my ex is wanting the cash. Now I am afraid to return to Aus Incase I cant return back to Thailand. It’s funny how things can come back and bite you in the arse big time if you don’t cover all your bases. PS I am on a retirement visa with no assets in Australia, but would like to go home and visit the kids. I am at present paying what I can afford to the CSA on a monthly basis, but not game to take the chance on going home.Also asked my ex for a divorce after 3 yrs,reply not untill I get my money. 

Unless I've interpreted this wrongly, that quite doesn't make sense to me.

Child support payments usually stop when thy child turns 18, unless there is a court order in place.

 

Are you saying your kids are 26 and 35?

[lionsincity]

4 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Unless I've interpreted this wrongly, that quite doesn't make sense to me.

Child support payments usually stop when thy child turns 18, unless there is a court order in place.

 

Are you saying your kids are 26 and 35?

 

haha it wouldn't surprise me if that looney aussie govt think that these entitled kids should be supported for life

[PerkinsCuthbert]

The thing about getting into disputes with one's own government is, for the individual it's personal and emotionally very wearing, the longer it continues, but for the government it's just following the law, and totally impersonal. For this reason it is always a bad idea to allow situations to develop into protracted conflicts with officialdom and bureaucracy, they will grind you down and spit you out without even noticing. Allowing the same to occur with a government not one's own is incrementally worse.

[Russell17au]

The thing is that you knew you were to pay child support but you chose not to and now instead of paying your debt you want to go and spend that money on an overseas trip to meet your future wife's family and to also promise them that you will pay them their sinsot on the day of the wedding and then what get her pregnant so that you can p**s off again and not face up to your responsibilities to your new wife as well. Pay your debt to CSA and don't be a scumbag. You are the father of those children now face up to your responsibility like a man.

[Bastos60]

22 hours ago, JohnGordon said:

Definitely agree with "loose lips sink ships" but I thought we were on good terms.

 

The DPO came through about 4 days after I told her so it's a safe bet she made a call.

 

I've got a repayment plan with the CSA which is upto date but still no joy getting a a DAC or the DPO lifted.

 

At the CSA most staff are man-hating witches who seem to get an unnatural pleasure from tormenting those they come into contact with. Came across one old guy who worked there and was decent. He suggested applying for a DAC on "humanitarian" grounds. 

 

I need a reputable source to show it is essential to meet her Thai family first before getting engaged. We all know Thai culture a bit and this is not surprising to us but how do I prove it.

 

Any ideas?

Just get married.
There is no reason why the in-laws need to see you, in the worst case you end up paying something silly like a dowry.

Once you are married, you probably will get your DAC since your travelling for family reasons (meet the parents and escorting your wife).
 

[JohnGordon]

My three eldest kids were living with me and studying at uni. Two had part-time jobs but I was supporting them all. Because they were over 18 I got no child support. Two have finished uni now so it's easier but for a couple of years I struggled badly. Things like collecting 5 cent pieces to get milk for breakfast in the morning.

 

The CSA debt relates to my 12yo son who lives with mom. For 5 years the CSA debts were upto date but I stopped paying when she screwed me over for the car. I bought her a new Mazda for $20,000 cash when I had a good year in 2015 thinking I would be nice. She works full-time as a nurse and earns more than me now.

 

"Humanitarian" grounds for a DAC includes "compassionate" and I'm trying to say I need to visit my traditional and conservative Thai girlfriends parents so we can get engaged. I'm not going to Thailand to sit on the beach in a resort or go with bar girls in Pattaya.

 

If I can prove the cultural necessity of visiting her family in Thailand I have a chance. 

 

You guys know Australia and Thailand, how can I prove I need to meet her parents.

[Russell17au]

7 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

My three eldest kids were living with me and studying at uni. Two had part-time jobs but I was supporting them all. Because they were over 18 I got no child support. Two have finished uni now so it's easier but for a couple of years I struggled badly. Things like collecting 5 cent pieces to get milk for breakfast in the morning.

 

The CSA debt relates to my 12yo son who lives with mom. For 5 years the CSA debts were upto date but I stopped paying when she screwed me over for the car. I bought her a new Mazda for $20,000 cash when I had a good year in 2015 thinking I would be nice. She works full-time as a nurse and earns more than me now.

 

"Humanitarian" grounds for a DAC includes "compassionate" and I'm trying to say I need to visit my traditional and conservative Thai girlfriends parents so we can get engaged. I'm not going to Thailand to sit on the beach in a resort or go with bar girls in Pattaya.

 

If I can prove the cultural necessity of visiting her family in Thailand I have a chance. 

 

You guys know Australia and Thailand, how can I prove I need to meet her parents.

I know Australia, I know Thailand and I also know CSA as I was divorced from my wife but I met my obligations to the children even though it was hard for me financially but I still did the same as hundreds of other fathers. It took me along time and a lot of hours working to get back on my feet but like many other fathers I succeeded. How much do you know about Thai culture? Did you know that in Thai culture you will be required to pay a Sinsot (Dowry) to the wife's family to pay for her upbringing and her education and the higher her education the higher the dowry especially if she has never been married before. If you cannot pay your CSA debt then how are you going to show that you are going to be able to pay the sinsot that is set by her mother and how are you going to show how you can support your new Thai wife financially. Pay your obligation to the CSA first then you will be free.

[Stevemercer]

You'll need to do some research on the internet.

 

Thai marriage

 

Marriage in Thailand - cultural requirements

 

Sin sod

 

Meeting your Thai inlaws

 

It will take a while, but you'll be able to build a case that it is culturally appropriate for you to meet with the future in-laws prior to the actual marriage. If nothing else, but to settle sin sod etc.

 

To be honest, the reasons don't matter much, just follow the approach I suggested previously. You need to fight fire with fire, admin law with admin law etc. to beat the bureaucracy. 

 

I managed to successfully fight my (then) fiancee's deportation order back to Thailand when she got divorced to her previous Australian husband before her 2 year permanent visa deadline. 

 

In that case, we worked within the system and won. As a last resort, we would have been prepared to camp outside the then PM's office (Julia Gillard) to get media attention.

 

I have a friend in Australia who has been waiting 9 months to get his old age pension. The local newspaper ran a story about the delay. He got his full pension and 9 months backpay within a week.

 

Look at Thailand...so many injustices, but when it hits the social media the government can't do enough to help (at least until the next story crops up).

 

 

But you have to be working within the system before trying to work outside it. You have to build your case and submit it. If that doesn't work, sit outside your Federal Member's office for a few days, call the media, whatever you have to do.

 

Any reasonable person would agree that it is only fair to visit the prospective in-laws before marrying. At the end of the day, if this was publicised, the DAC would run a mile.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Stevemercer

[JohnGordon]

My girlfriend works and her family are very respectable. Neither her or her family have ever asked for money.

 

Happy to pay Thong Mun and Sin Sod but was told it's unnecesary. She's 34 never married and university educated.

 

I've Googled this topic every which way without luck so far.

[SteveK]

Seems like you've got no choice.

 

If you want to go to Rayong, negotiate a payment plan.

 

If you intend to clear the debt, stick to it. If you don't want to pay, close the linked account after you've got the order lifted. Doesn't sound like your ex is exactly the most honorable person in the world.

 

Personally, I would do whatever they want to lift the order. If you trust your wife, move any money you've got to her account and move to Thailand. It's not easy to earn money here though unless you have some particularly sought after skills.

 

Just be warned that if your new wife isn't what she appears to be, you could lose everything.

 

Why are people suggesting he pay the balance when he doesn't have the money? 

 

By the way OP, do you realise Thai wives are NOT CHEAP?

[Blue Muton]

29 minutes ago, JohnGordon said:

My girlfriend works and her family are very respectable. Neither her or her family have ever asked for money.

 

Happy to pay Thong Mun and Sin Sod but was told it's unnecesary. She's 34 never married and university educated.

 

I've Googled this topic every which way without luck so far.

I think it's more for show. My Mrs didn't have the opportunity to go to university, she's the baby of the eight and only the eldest son was fortunate enough. When we married her mother said she didn't want anything, we ended up with a sinsod for show, which she returned after the wedding. I understand that this is not uncommon these days. The sight of the M-i-L picking up the money and legging it was quite funny, I've never seen her move so quickly!

[Titan1962]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Unless I've interpreted this wrongly, that quite doesn't make sense to me.

Child support payments usually stop when thy child turns 18, unless there is a court order in place.

 

Are you saying your kids are 26 and 35?

Yes kids are 26 and 35, during the settlement agreed and signed a letter to pay a certain amount. Like an idiot did not think about unemployment later on. After I explained the situation to her,no longer working due to lay off and would no longer be able to pay her what we agreed upon.she approached CSA and they garnished my aus bank account. I had already paid half of what we agreed too at that time. Not being entitled to any sort-of  income I contacted her and told her I was now living on what I had managed to save while being separated. And asked her to waive the money owing and if in the future I gained employment again I would resume payment. The reply was no I want my money,hence the CSA involvement. I too thought it was strange that the CSA are involved but they are,as in previous comment now paying what I can afford each month directly to the CSA. But with a bit under half the amount still owing,I am not willing to take the chance to go back.