Rising water hamper efforts to rescue boys missing in Chiang Rai cave

[Ks45672]

2 hours ago, Russell17au said:

I have, but not in Florida, in NSW just south of Newcastle when all the underground coal mines were still operating. The rescue squad I was with had 8 underground coal mines in the area and we worked with the Mines Rescue Squad and as an ex-navy clearance diver I was asked to train some of the others for doing flooded mines rescue, which I did. On the 28th December 1989 at about 10:30 the ground moved and 10 minutes later the emergency alarms at a couple of the mines sounded and we were required to do flooded mines rescue. Newcastle had been hit by an earthquake and we had several mines that had shafts that went out to sea and number 3 shaft at Wallarah Colliery flooded with a crew of 7 working at the head. that shaft was 400metres below sea level and the coal face was 9 kilometres from the pithead. In other rescues we did many times these cave divers would come and try to butt there frames in and it got that way we had them removed by the police, they were a pain in the a**s and it was all ego for them.

I will not criticise these divers because I know what is involved and I just wish that the mines rescue squad was still operating in NSW because they would have come and helped.

They wouldn't be allowed to get involved, regardless of their expertise 

[jenny2017]

"We have to switch out units because there is not enough air in there," he added, before entering the cave.

 

"I have asked the army chief to go up to Chiang Rai," Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan told reporters.

 

Asked whether the missing boys and their coach would be found, Prawit said: "We hope that they will be found because they have been missing for many days."

 

  What a tragic story where Prayut's and Prawit's senseless comments do not really help them. Let's hope that they are at an area with more oxygen. Not water is the biggest challenge, I'm afraid it's the time. 

[neeray]

5 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

"We have to switch out units because there is not enough air in there," he added, before entering the cave.

 

"I have asked the army chief to go up to Chiang Rai," Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan told reporters.

 

Asked whether the missing boys and their coach would be found, Prawit said: "We hope that they will be found because they have been missing for many days." 

 

  What a tragic story where Prayut's and Prawit's senseless comments do not really help them. Let's hope that they are at an area with more oxygen. Not water is the biggest challenge, I'm afraid it's the time. 

"We hope that they will be found because they have been missing for many days."

 

Rare would be the day when I would defend these "two army soldiers" but let's give a little allowance for translation error. At least they didn't comment that this tragedy is "damaging the image of Thailand".

[KiwiKiwi]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha said on his return from his official trip to Europe yesterday that he would ask for blessings from the Supreme Patriarch when they met yesterday.

 

Wow, that's a relief. Rescue bound to be at hand with the unleashing of rampant superstition.

[smedly]

7 hours ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Let's hope so, under the rule of 333, water is the most pressing need right now, assuming they can still breathe air.

 

Without water; Live 3 days

Without food; live 3 weeks

Without air; live 3 minutes.

 

 

I have not read this huge thread  and what is transpiring is very sad indeed, you do not go into caves when there is a chance of rain, I did it as part of training and rule number one - weather and even time of year.

 

If they have found somewhere to hold up then water is not an issue and neither is oxygen but the truth is down to luck being somewhere you cannot survive or overcome and when you are in a cave and the elements are against you then there is not much chance, the blame is that they should not have been there especially at this time of the year. one of the most dangerous things I have ever done was go into a cave complex with water up to my neck and often having to submerge to get to the next cavern - one shower of rain and you are toast 

 

 

I hope they can be found safe and well, they have water which is good lets hope they have found air to breath and are found 

 

 

[kannot]

1 hour ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Wow, that's a relief. Rescue bound to be at hand with the unleashing of rampant superstition.

yet  telling "mediums" to  bugger  off, people never  see it as exactly the same type of nonsense

[Wilsonandson]

Latest photos from twitter....

[KiwiKiwi]

6 hours ago, jspill said:

It was a test of the infra red equipment, people took a pic and passed it around facebook as a joke

 

 

Right. The Thai sense of humour on display for all to see and marvel at.

 

Very droll.

 

 

[lvr181]

11 hours ago, Johnniey said:

Well let them get on with it, instead of criticizing them and trying to show that you know better.

No problem with letting them get on with it, the problem is they are too slow in asking for help (or accepting help) from more experienced people (without a permit to work?) - perhaps from other countries.

 

Stop with trying to "re-invent the wheel" all the time (seems all too often to be the Thai way) - just learn how to improve it!

 

While we all hope for a successful outcome this is getting closer to recovery than rescue. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by lvr181
Additional wording

[wcoast]

I beg to differ.
Actually it seems help was solicited or accepted fairly early. The 3 Brits were in Chiang Rai at 6pm yesterday. Logistics would have them flying about 12hrs to Thailand. So, a fewvdays into the search they accepted help.
Yes it's an eternity in one sense, yet not in another. Only by the army excursions deep into the cave did the realization occur that this is going to be more difficult than hoped.
Really it would be nice if the armchair quarterbacks kept their scepticism and judgements to themselves and keep a positive vibe happening.

No problem with letting them get on with it, the problem is they are too slow in asking for help (or accepting help) from more experienced people (without a permit to work?) - perhaps from other countries.
 
Stop with trying to "re-invent the wheel" all the time (seems all too often to be the Thai way) - just learn how to improve it!
 
While we all hope for a successful outcome this is getting closer to recovery than rescue. 

Sent from my abacus using Tapatalk

[josephbloggs]

9 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Ain't exactly Seal Team 6

 

This is not an episode of Baywatch.  We really don't need your crass belittling of very experienced volunteers who have come to help - people who are very experienced cavers and very familiar with this particular cave system.  Keep your "USA! USA!" smugness to yourself next time - this is not the time or place for it.

[stanleycoin]

10 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Ain't exactly Seal Team 6

 

Man, there is a time and a place for jokes

This is not the time or the thread.. 

 

Lets just wish the boys all the luck in the world. 

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by stanleycoin

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, wcoast said:

Actually it seems help was solicited or accepted fairly early. The 3 Brits were in Chiang Rai at 6pm yesterday.

I can agree with some of your post BUT......

 

When were these kids reported missing, in a dangerous situation i.e this cave system, in wet weather?  

 

Rhetorical question - I think you see the point I am referring to.

 

I hope the Brits and anyone else can help out.

[Stargeezr]

Water in the caves may not be clean, but if the rain is putting more into the cave, then food is

the one concern, and breathable air is the other concern.

Geezer

[AsianAtHeart]

45 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Water in the caves may not be clean, but if the rain is putting more into the cave, then food is

the one concern, and breathable air is the other concern.

Geezer

I think one thing that people seem not to be accounting for but that is worth pointing out is that if their batteries have run out and they have no light, water may very well be a concern, depending on their location.  If they're getting dripped on and can simply suck their shirts, fine--but if they need to move around in potentially hazardous areas in order to obtain water, they may prefer staying put. 

 

On the other hand, what would you do if your light was gone and you were stuck, seemingly abandoned by the world, entombed in a pitch-black cavern, knowing you were unable to get out?  The psychological value of just knowing someone was coming might be one of the biggest benefits to having the drill team come in--the children might hear the sounds and realize that people were aware of their plight and were trying to reach them.

[canuckamuck]

31 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I think one thing that people seem not to be accounting for but that is worth pointing out is that if their batteries have run out and they have no light, water may very well be a concern, depending on their location.  If they're getting dripped on and can simply suck their shirts, fine--but if they need to move around in potentially hazardous areas in order to obtain water, they may prefer staying put. 

 

On the other hand, what would you do if your light was gone and you were stuck, seemingly abandoned by the world, entombed in a pitch-black cavern, knowing you were unable to get out?  The psychological value of just knowing someone was coming might be one of the biggest benefits to having the drill team come in--the children might hear the sounds and realize that people were aware of their plight and were trying to reach them.

Total darkness

Slippery footing and holes to fall into

Constant damp and low temperatures

Hypothermia (reduced judgement)

Hypoxia (reduced judgement)

Hunger (reduced judgement)

Fear 

Leadership ability?

Runaway imaginations

No contact with the outside world.

Miracles required

Lots of people praying though.

Hopefully there will be some positive news today

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.  

[KiwiKiwi]

 

Methinks perhaps that if the football coach survives, he will rue the day he did something this stupid - taking 13 kids with him. I suspect his football coaching days are at an end because surely nobody would trust him with their kids again?

Edited June 28, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post and three replies have been removed

[wcoast]

My comment about the local water turbidity is removed as off topic? but posts about the hunkiness of seals persist. *sigh*

Sent from my abacus using Tapatalk

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Methinks perhaps that if the football coach survives, he will rue the day he did something this stupid - taking 13 kids with him. I suspect his football coaching days are at an end because surely nobody would trust him with their kids again?

It's really not the time for that. He's only 25. He spends his days with these kids and being a football coach in rural area, probably doesn't get paid much or even get paid at all. 

He had taken them on many adventures before. In all likelihood it was a dry day that changed suddenly. If they are alive, he is a hero. 

[KiwiKiwi]

7 minutes ago, greenchair said:

It's really not the time for that. He's only 25. He spends his days with these kids and being a football coach in rural area, probably doesn't get paid much or even get paid at all. 

He had taken them on many adventures before. In all likelihood it was a dry day that changed suddenly. If they are alive, he is a hero. 

 

Hmmm. Maybe, it depends upon your viewpoint and whether or not your natural empathy emotion floods out the rational thinking that you can do - it often does but that's no reason to be content that it does.

 

In my view, he isn't a hero, he's been very stupid, and being untrained is no excuse, it's his job to be trained when he takes responsibility for the welfare of kids. Just because he'd taken them on 'many adventures' before doesn't make it safe this time, as is now clear. Someone tell me that this kind of stupidity is not entirely typical of the Thai education. Being untrained is characteristic of the Thai approach to many things, whether it's doing your home electrics or painting a wall or laying a concrete path. You need to be trained - but not in Thailand.

 

The whole idea of a risk is that it's probability-based. It's like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. xyz times, there's no consequence - xyz+1 times, you're dead because you've been silly, because you knew better, because you're Thai and were free to do whatever you want. Because you didn't need to learn anything to be expert. It just goes on and on.

 

Same same.

[BritManToo]

23 minutes ago, greenchair said:

He had taken them on many adventures before. In all likelihood it was a dry day that changed suddenly. If they are alive, he is a hero. 

I've been here since the start of May, don't think I've seen 2 dry days in a row. Torrential rain at least every other day.

Going into a cave system with warnings of flooding outside in this weather, and taking kids with you, is totally irresponsible.

[greenchair]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I've been here since the start of May, don't think I've seen 2 dry days in a row. Torrential rain at least every other day.

Going into a cave system with warnings of flooding outside in this weather, and taking kids with you, is totally irresponsible.

It just isn't the time to talk about that right now. 

[greenchair]

14 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Hmmm. Maybe, it depends upon your viewpoint and whether or not your natural empathy emotion floods out the rational thinking that you can do - it often does but that's no reason to be content that it does.

 

In my view, he isn't a hero, he's been very stupid, and being untrained is no excuse, it's his job to be trained when he takes responsibility for the welfare of kids. Just because he'd taken them on 'many adventures' before doesn't make it safe this time, as is now clear. Someone tell me that this kind of stupidity is not entirely typical of the Thai education. Being untrained is characteristic of the Thai approach to many things, whether it's doing your home electrics or painting a wall or laying a concrete path. You need to be trained - but not in Thailand.

 

The whole idea of a risk is that it's probability-based. It's like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. xyz times, there's no consequence - xyz+1 times, you're dead because you've been silly, because you knew better, because you're Thai and were free to do whatever you want. Because you didn't need to learn anything to be expert. It just goes on and on.

 

Same same.

Everything you've said is right. 

But this isn't the right time. Nobody needs to hear this crap right now. 

The Thais are all presently doing the best that they can with the knowledge that they have. 

[KiwiKiwi]

5 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Everything you've said is right. 

But this isn't the right time. Nobody needs to hear this crap right now. 

The Thais are all presently doing the best that they can with the knowledge that they have. 

 

Hmmm, I acknowledge your view, but I refuse to let raw emotion cloud my thinking, and so should you. If what I said was right (as you say), then it isn't crap (as you also say).

 

The problem is too many people get overwhelmed by emotions at times like this, They would be better remaining calm and thinking more. That way you are less likely to get bulldozed into anything and you don't get sold bogus conclusions.

 

Might be an age thing.

Edited June 28, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[Cake Monster]

15 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

 

16 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Hmmm. Maybe, it depends upon your viewpoint and whether or not your natural empathy emotion floods out the rational thinking that you can do - it often does but that's no reason to be content that it does.

 

In my view, he isn't a hero, he's been very stupid, and being untrained is no excuse, it's his job to be trained when he takes responsibility for the welfare of kids. Just because he'd taken them on 'many adventures' before doesn't make it safe this time, as is now clear. Someone tell me that this kind of stupidity is not entirely typical of the Thai education. Being untrained is characteristic of the Thai approach to many things, whether it's doing your home electrics or painting a wall or laying a concrete path. You need to be trained - but not in Thailand.

 

The whole idea of a risk is that it's probability-based. It's like riding a motorcycle without a helmet. xyz times, there's no consequence - xyz+1 times, you're dead because you've been silly, because you knew better, because you're Thai and were free to do whatever you want. Because you didn't need to learn anything to be expert. It just goes on and on.

 

Same same.

Its all well ans good to slate this fellow for trying to give the kids another experience.

However, it is probably true that he has had no training at all in cave diving / caving, or any other activity that he took the kids on.

The guy is only trying to enrich the childrens lives, and if he has had no training, who is to blame for that ?

If there would have been some training sessions for any activity, this man seems to be the kind of guy to be first in the que to join in and gain that knowledge.

I sincerely hope that the outcome to this whole thing is a good one for all concerned

.

[Jingthing]

There is no point focusing on blame at this point, but they should definitely make that cave OFF LIMITS during the rainy season!

[KiwiKiwi]

4 minutes ago, Cake Monster said:

 

Its all well ans good to slate this fellow for trying to give the kids another experience.

However, it is probably true that he has had no training at all in cave diving / caving, or any other activity that he took the kids on.

The guy is only trying to enrich the childrens lives, and if he has had no training, who is to blame for that ?

If there would have been some training sessions for any activity, this man seems to be the kind of guy to be first in the que to join in and gain that knowledge.

I sincerely hope that the outcome to this whole thing is a good one for all concerned

.

As do I. Fervently. But I refuse to allow a flood of emotion to cloud my judgment or thinking capacity, that doesn't help anyone, though I acknowledge it makes many folk feel all warm and worthwhile inside - the same 'sense of belonging' that I've mentioned before. Often it isn't quite genuine but wjat someone thinks they opught to be feeling or saying. The belonging thing again.

 

To answer a good point you made; 'who is responsible?' That's easy to answer. Everyone, The society that Thais have allowed to be built around them and every government for the past several decades. It's a symptom of a sick, unskilled and exploited society, whether or not 'this is the time to say it'.

Edited June 28, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[greenchair]

7 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Hmmm, I acknowledge your view, but I refuse to let raw emotion cloud my thinking, and so should you. If what I said was right (as you say), then it isn't crap (as you also say).

 

The problem is too many people get overwhelmed by emotions at times like this, They would be better remaining calm and thinking more. That way you are less likely to get bulldozed into anything and you don't get sold bogus conclusions.

 

Might be an age thing.

Oh that's just rad isn't it bringing in the age abuse. 

What we need to do is remain realistic to the gravity of the situation and not make silly assumptions due to emotional inability to see that, day 5 is almost over and there's a high possibility that the coach will not be alive to recieve his punishment that you have wished upon him.