Hopes rest on drilling of Tham Luang Cave in Chiang Rai

[RandolphGB]

1 minute ago, CGW said:

Your making the assumption that the "Thai rescuers" would be capable of making an assessment and then acting on on the results? Do you think untrained individuals are capable of these actions, meanwhile they should be draining water, drilling holes, launching survival gear, looking for existing holes to enter the cave? 

 

He had taken kids in the cave before. He knew the area and would have spoken to friends and family about the cave. The fate of the children is entirely down to his response to being trapped - does he run deeper inside, find a cavern, try and swim back. Will he have kept control of the group if  they survived the initial deluge. Would he have cracked himself. The Thai rescuers should have been finding out everything possible  about him from day one.

[RandolphGB]

4 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I bet you're American. 

It looks to me like the Thai have done all the right things and are doing everything possible. 

People that criticise them during this time or after, really should just leave. Their work has been exhaustive, well planned and they continue to come up with new ideas everyday. 

 

Are you saying that they should not be criticised? Ok. You fit right in here. Eat som tam and carry on. 

 

[greenchair]

21 minutes ago, RandolphGB said:

 

Are you saying that they should not be criticised? Ok. You fit right in here. Eat som tam and carry on. 

 

Yes.

I do. 

And I will. 

Mmmm. 

[CGW]

1 hour ago, RandolphGB said:

 

He had taken kids in the cave before. He knew the area and would have spoken to friends and family about the cave. The fate of the children is entirely down to his response to being trapped - does he run deeper inside, find a cavern, try and swim back. Will he have kept control of the group if  they survived the initial deluge. Would he have cracked himself. The Thai rescuers should have been finding out everything possible  about him from day one.

Not quite what I was thinking when you said "physiological profile" what makes you think they wouldn't have asked these simple questions?

[Cake Monster]

Drilling a 150 mm Diameter hole is easy.

I had a team of guys drillng a bore hole for me to extract water on our land, and they drilled the 150 mm dia hole 100 meters deep in only a few hours through solid rock

This size hole would be the way to go so that radio / phone , water and food as well as clean dry warm clopths could be lowered to the trapped people ,.

[ravip]

1 hour ago, RandolphGB said:

 

Are you saying that they should not be criticised? Ok. You fit right in here. Eat som tam and carry on. 

 

An "attitude"

[sanemax]

44 Minutes ago (Translated from Thai)

 

an umbrella police informing into a hole in a spot that matches the Khun Hall. She slept right until he found the hall. There's a corridor to disarm safety. Because There's an air corridor. Breathe Convenient.

The police on the top, including the chief. Sq. Make a sound. Glad to applaud... see this hollow hope. There is a chance to connect with the cave

Last 15.24, the umbrella that went down below said that it went down 40 meters. Sq. Let's take a photo on the address to analyze whether it matches physical hall in the cave.

 

 

 

[rgraham]

These situations always seem to bring out the best and the worst. I am hoping someone in the middle will bring a positive end and save lives, all my best!

[smo]

10 hours ago, RandolphGB said:

 

He had taken kids in the cave before. He knew the area and would have spoken to friends and family about the cave. The fate of the children is entirely down to his response to being trapped - does he run deeper inside, find a cavern, try and swim back. Will he have kept control of the group if  they survived the initial deluge. Would he have cracked himself. The Thai rescuers should have been finding out everything possible  about him from day one.

 

Exactly, and not only because he was the one that brought on this tragedy in the first place. He took the kids into the danger zone despite the huge red warning sign posted at the entrance that spells out "DANGER" in both languages. Did he think if it's dangerous starting July 1st then it's still okay to come in before midnight of June 23rd? He apparently did. That's why taking his profile might be useful: From the psychological we might arrive at the practical (answer), would he have made a left turn or a right turn at the critical junction - one of the first questions that baffled the Brit expert, "did they turn right, or turn left?" 

 

 

This is not about criticism of anyone action at this point, up to and including that of the coach.It's more about what other steps could have been taken in order not to render the "rescue" plan so much of a guessing game as we see unfolding day after day. We might drill the whole mountainside into a giant Swiss cheese and still find nothing (or no-bod-ies I'm afraid). This is one of those instances, to borrow a cliche, where it helps to think "outside the box." Some folks are not used to this concept, it freaked them out apparently.

 

 Just watched this video clip update of same Brit expert. He looked really, doggone-ly grim I could almost read the subtitles: "What the fck you think we could do at this point?" He said he knows this particular cave system very well... One thing I like about the Brits is that they do not smile when there's nothing to smile about, unlike us Yanks we always try to look upbeat and cheerful as if we were in a frigging commercial no matter what.

[janclaes47]

Follow live updates here

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/thailand-cave-rescue-news-live-updates-form-tham-luang-as-us-and-british-join-search-for-12-missing-a3874151.html

[Nigeone]

18 hours ago, thaigirlwatcher said:

Interesting that the US military members have the patches with their name, rank and the American flag removed from their uniforms. The question is why? 

Special forces normal practice to protect identity etc 

[kannot]

13 hours ago, RandolphGB said:

 

Are you saying that they should not be criticised? Ok. You fit right in here. Eat som tam and carry on. 

 

Its the "new  world" and its spreading worldwide especially on the web where you cant criticise anything, only say nice  good  things, never  complain, in fact its the Thai way, true acclimatisation ...................no thanks Ill keep the free  speech and I wont be wearing the Emperors new clothes.

As for the "weather " this year has been very very wet all over Thailand  whereas the past few years have been drought ridden, in fact the rain started coming more frequently last year but this year has been much MUCH more prominent.

Edited June 29, 2018 by kannot

[kannot]

13 hours ago, greenchair said:

I bet you're American. 

It looks to me like the Thai have done all the right things and are doing everything possible. 

People that criticise them during this time or after, really should just leave. Their work has been exhaustive, well planned and they continue to come up with new ideas everyday. 

Maybe they could add it  into an immigration form just for you, any criticism of Thailand, Thai people, Thai culture will be...........oh  wait?? we have a Junta thats already dealt with that.

Dont suppose it ever occurred  to you that other people  dont think they have done all the right things whether you like it or  not and irrespective of what I think as I havent offered any opinion on what they have or havent done but other people should be free to  comment without your  "holier than thou" diatribe

 

[Prairieboy]

On 6/29/2018 at 5:00 AM, sanemax said:

That isnt the conclusion that I have come to , there seems to be hesitancy and indecision and they seem to have been caught out by the recent heavy rains , they should have envisaged the heavy rains and made preparations for it by drilling Monday morning .

   There is no possibility of the cave collapsing through drilling a small hole . The only delay would be decided the best place to drill and getting the equipment on site and that could have been done on Sunday and drilling beginning on Monday.

   Considering that time is important here , waiting nearly one week is just too long.

6

Any time one drills through rock there is extreme vibration involved, (Think hammer drill).  Vibration could loosen unstable rock on the cave roof causing a collapse.

[Spock]

22 hours ago, RandolphGB said:

This was my instinct when the story first appeared. A lot depends on the coach and how he responded to the first sign of flooding, and where they were in the cave. Unfortunately they could have been drowned very quickly. 

It beggars belief that the coach took the kids into the cave in the first place, so I wouldn't put a lot of hope in his response to the first sign of flooding. Can't imagine they were equipped for caving given that parents seemed unaware that this activity was even on the kids' agenda.

[kannot]

20 hours ago, greenchair said:

I bet you're American. 

It looks to me like the Thai have done all the right things and are doing everything possible. 

People that criticise them during this time or after, really should just leave. Their work has been exhaustive, well planned and they continue to come up with new ideas everyday. 

Youd  better tell this guy to leave then as  well................or report him

[yrag]

On 6/29/2018 at 2:07 PM, greenchair said:

They might survive without food, but it's very cold there and not much air. If even one is there waiting then it's all worth the trouble. But time is running out. 

Greenchair Americans are most appreciate & respected here in Thailand even we are few.....ask any thai...And their King was American,,,So take your hatred elsewhere,,,

[smo]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

It beggars belief that the coach took the kids into the cave in the first place, so I wouldn't put a lot of hope in his response to the first sign of flooding. Can't imagine they were equipped for caving given that parents seemed unaware that this activity was even on the kids' agenda.

 

There was at least one parent that caught wind of the "expedition" - and yes it appeared decided on a whim therefore no one was prepared as by proof of the kind of footwear left behind - and thus a boy's life was spared. I learned about this by seeing pic of one kid keep popping up among the youtube Thai news clips. In one clip he and his dad were interviewed, albeit very briefly and I wasn't listening in closely. Then I checked with my friend Cortana (Google's cousin on the Windows side)and yes, there was indeed one "survivor" with "for some reason..." as explanation. So I spent the afternoon researching, putting my investigating reporter hat on plus a pair of headphones. And this is what I have dug up [Caveat emptor - hopefully there will be a more succint and accurate version of this coming out for our farang eyes and ears, if and when but let's settle for now with my 3rd grade Thai.]

 

This boy #13 was also part of the team and was going along with the expedition after their Sat game practice. On the way they made a pit stop at the coach's house, during which the coach told his mother - or she asked - of where they were going. She made a comment/reply which escaped me but I guess it was probably something along the line, are you crazy? Luckily this bit of critical info was passed along to one mother of one of the kids. When the group arrived at the cave, this one kid got a phone call from his mom, she told him not to go in but wait for her instead, she was on her way to pick him up. There you go, a bit of luck, a piece of vital info getting through, and oodles of common sense from a concerned parent saved one precious life. I wondered what going through the mother's mind as she arrived at the mouth of the cave and found her child waiting for her, among the row of chained bicycles that his teammates had left behind and the rain started coming down.

 

I also wonder why there has been no question/mention - let alone any criticism - regarding the judgement call - or lack thereof - of the coach from the press or concerned parties. Is it because in this culture, teachers and coaches are revered as having infinite wisdom therefore their action or decision is regarded as beyond reproach? Oh never mind, I think I have just answered my own question.

[KiwiKiwi]

On 6/30/2018 at 5:08 AM, kannot said:

I bet you're American. 

It looks to me like the Thai have done all the right things and are doing everything possible. 

People that criticise them during this time or after, really should just leave. Their work has been exhaustive, well planned and they continue to come up with new ideas everyday. 

 

Even many Thais don't think that. I appreciate you're probably angling for some brownie points, but try not to appear resentful by taking the conversation off-topic. Agin' da roolz.

[KiwiKiwi]

7 hours ago, smo said:

 

There was at least one parent that caught wind of the "expedition" - and yes it appeared decided on a whim therefore no one was prepared as by proof of the kind of footwear left behind - and thus a boy's life was spared. I learned about this by seeing pic of one kid keep popping up among the youtube Thai news clips. In one clip he and his dad were interviewed, albeit very briefly and I wasn't listening in closely. Then I checked with my friend Cortana (Google's cousin on the Windows side)and yes, there was indeed one "survivor" with "for some reason..." as explanation. So I spent the afternoon researching, putting my investigating reporter hat on plus a pair of headphones. And this is what I have dug up [Caveat emptor - hopefully there will be a more succint and accurate version of this coming out for our farang eyes and ears, if and when but let's settle for now with my 3rd grade Thai.]

 

This boy #13 was also part of the team and was going along with the expedition after their Sat game practice. On the way they made a pit stop at the coach's house, during which the coach told his mother - or she asked - of where they were going. She made a comment/reply which escaped me but I guess it was probably something along the line, are you crazy? Luckily this bit of critical info was passed along to one mother of one of the kids. When the group arrived at the cave, this one kid got a phone call from his mom, she told him not to go in but wait for her instead, she was on her way to pick him up. There you go, a bit of luck, a piece of vital info getting through, and oodles of common sense from a concerned parent saved one precious life. I wondered what going through the mother's mind as she arrived at the mouth of the cave and found her child waiting for her, among the row of chained bicycles that his teammates had left behind and the rain started coming down.

 

I also wonder why there has been no question/mention - let alone any criticism - regarding the judgement call - or lack thereof - of the coach from the press or concerned parties. Is it because in this culture, teachers and coaches are revered as having infinite wisdom therefore their action or decision is regarded as beyond reproach? Oh never mind, I think I have just answered my own question.

 

At last - a useful post which isn't complaining about someone not treading the party line. Interesting contribution, and I also wonder what motivated the coach to go in the cave after a football practice match when the kids were likely tired and (as another poster said) their blood sugar would have been quite low, or at least on the way down after spiking during exercise.

 

It does seem like a strange thing to do after football training.

 

 

[Ks45672]

On 6/29/2018 at 8:26 AM, ravip said:

I guess they are real experts in their field and need no frills or advertising...

Same reason they wear balaclavas maybe

media coverage puts them at risk thesedays

[Peterw42]

14 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

At last - a useful post which isn't complaining about someone not treading the party line. Interesting contribution, and I also wonder what motivated the coach to go in the cave after a football practice match when the kids were likely tired and (as another poster said) their blood sugar would have been quite low, or at least on the way down after spiking during exercise.

 

It does seem like a strange thing to do after football training.

 

 

I saw an interview with other members of the same football team/club saying it was often part of their training, run in run out, same as a run up and down the local beach/mountain etc. When the cave isnt full of water its apparently big well worn trails, arrows painted on the wall showing the way etc

[KiwiKiwi]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I saw an interview with other members of the same football team/club saying it was often part of their training, run in run out, same as a run up and down the local beach/mountain etc. When the cave isnt full of water its apparently big well worn trails, arrows painted on the wall showing the way etc

 

Really? I didn't know that, might make sense of a couple of things. Warming down after a training session? I suppose the arrows might also explain why the emphasis on Pattaya Beach too?

 

Egg on face for someone if there's no trace at Pattaya Beach when they get there though. Personally, I doubt they're still with us, more's the pity, this is day what? 8? I doubt they made it past day 5 or so.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by KiwiKiwi

[starky]

On 6/29/2018 at 1:14 PM, eeworldwide said:

Just a few thoughts.

 

1: It seems that shoes and bags were found at a junction where there are also caves to the NORTH. Has ANY investigation been done to that section of the cave, or are the rescue teams just presuming the kids went further on to the main cave?

 

2: Its is very plausible for the kids to stay alive for up to 1 month without food and just water. 

 

I would say chances are medium to high that at least some of the kids are still alive, and assuming that nothing tragic like drowning has taken place.

Food yes, you gotta assume they access to fresh water in a flooded cave. Exposure is probably their biggest enemy. They could be still alive but at this stage and with every day that passes it sadly looks unlikely. 

[Peterw42]

12 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

Really? I didn't know that, but it makes sense of a couple of things. I suppose the arrows also explain why the emphasis on Pattaya Beach too?

 

 

Yes, Pattaya beach is probably the spot they run to, have a 10 minute rest then run back. Makes sense as to why they presume thats where they are.

I just hope when they realised the water had/was rising, they didnt try and swim through or against it.

[KiwiKiwi]

8 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, Pattaya beach is probably the spot they run to, have a 10 minute rest then run back. Makes sense as to why they presume thats where they are.

I just hope when they realised the water had/was rising, they didnt try and swim through or against it.

 

They could have and should have laid a trail of breadcrumbs. Still, hindsight is 20/20. Still can't help thinking Vern might be right though. Pattaya Beach seems a very long way to run for kids of that age who'd just finished a practice match.

[Yme]

8 hours ago, smo said:

 

There was at least one parent that caught wind of the "expedition" - and yes it appeared decided on a whim therefore no one was prepared as by proof of the kind of footwear left behind - and thus a boy's life was spared. I learned about this by seeing pic of one kid keep popping up among the youtube Thai news clips. In one clip he and his dad were interviewed, albeit very briefly and I wasn't listening in closely. Then I checked with my friend Cortana (Google's cousin on the Windows side)and yes, there was indeed one "survivor" with "for some reason..." as explanation. So I spent the afternoon researching, putting my investigating reporter hat on plus a pair of headphones. And this is what I have dug up [Caveat emptor - hopefully there will be a more succint and accurate version of this coming out for our farang eyes and ears, if and when but let's settle for now with my 3rd grade Thai.]

 

This boy #13 was also part of the team and was going along with the expedition after their Sat game practice. On the way they made a pit stop at the coach's house, during which the coach told his mother - or she asked - of where they were going. She made a comment/reply which escaped me but I guess it was probably something along the line, are you crazy? Luckily this bit of critical info was passed along to one mother of one of the kids. When the group arrived at the cave, this one kid got a phone call from his mom, she told him not to go in but wait for her instead, she was on her way to pick him up. There you go, a bit of luck, a piece of vital info getting through, and oodles of common sense from a concerned parent saved one precious life. I wondered what going through the mother's mind as she arrived at the mouth of the cave and found her child waiting for her, among the row of chained bicycles that his teammates had left behind and the rain started coming down.

 

I also wonder why there has been no question/mention - let alone any criticism - regarding the judgement call - or lack thereof - of the coach from the press or concerned parties. Is it because in this culture, teachers and coaches are revered as having infinite wisdom therefore their action or decision is regarded as beyond reproach? Oh never mind, I think I have just answered my own question.

The time for blame will come at the end. But it's interesting if your understanding is correct. Do you still have a link to those sources?

Thanks!

[josephbloggs]

54 minutes ago, KiwiKiwi said:

 

They could have and should have laid a trail of breadcrumbs. Still, hindsight is 20/20. Still can't help thinking Vern might be right though. Pattaya Beach seems a very long way to run for kids of that age who'd just finished a practice match.

Yeah, because breadcrumbs would have been really useful with the torrents of gushing water, and the pitch darkness.

[greenchair]

11 hours ago, yrag said:

Greenchair Americans are most appreciate & respected here in Thailand even we are few.....ask any thai...And their King was American,,,So take your hatred elsewhere,,,

UM, my post is talking about how cold the boys might be. 

The Americans are respected here as are other nationalities. 

But when I hear posters on here spouting off that the Thais aren't doing a good job, or the Thais should move over and let the Americans do it, or that the Americans are better than the Thais, I have to say, well no that's not right. I get quite sick of people criticising the Thais when dealing with emergency situations. I think they do a great job.  

[watcharacters]

 

At the risk of upsetting those members who enjoy shouting about  "nanny states"  I still wish Thailand would consider something as simple as an  appropriate  warning sign such as this:

 

 

It's short and direct and inexpensive.     Maybe the 25 year old coach would have given pause had he read how rain could end the life of anyone entering the cave.   A simple warning seems innocent enough to me.