Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I wonder if the palpable panic amongst Brexit supporters this week has anything to do with the U.K. government simply having nothing to put on the negotiating table?

 

 

Na then, lads, 'av got some nice brown bread and butter for tha tea

 

 

[candide]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

So you think that Macron would actually say verbatum, The French President believes his country might also have quit the bloc if offered the choice in an referendum."

 

I

 

I perfectly understood what you were aiming at (and from what I read, I am not the only one).

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

I perfectly understood what you were aiming at (and from what I read, I am not the only one).

If you would kindly tell me what I was aiming at I would be eternely gratefull, because from where I am at the moment you are just flaming.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

I did not refer to any remainers personally, but it would appear that some Achilles’ heel’s have been struck by the ricochet

What has a bunch of misguided Thai footballers got to do with this thread? Off Topic.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

We should not criticise the government unless we are willing to stand for election ourselves? 

 

Since when did such nonsense creep into UK political discourse?

 

Last week the PM admitted she has not yet agreed the UK’s negotiating position with her own cabinet - more than two years after the referendum!

 

Cabinet minister Liam Fox is on record for declaring this would be ‘the easiest negotiation in human history’,

 

It’s an utter shambles.

 

So yes I understand why you’d rather people didn’t point out the obvious fact that Brexit started with no plan and that the government is running around like a headless chicken.

 

But let’s have none of this nonsense of pointing fingers at Remain supporters.

 

If you voted for Brexit, you own this mess.

 

The problem with criticising the government is that is all many people can do. They are not willing to DO anything about it other than complain on threads like this.

 

Every 4 or 5 years in the UK there is a general election where those who can be bothered to get off their arrrrrs and vote have the opportunity to replace their MP if they can find enough like minded people who agree with them.

 

If they really want to change the system then they should stand for election and state their case. If it is good enough they will be elected as an MP with all the responsibility that entails, and possibly somewhere down the line they may be promoted to be a minister and have a better chance to change the way things are run.

 

To complain in a forum anonymously as many do may make them feel better but sadly it will not change the way that politics works (or not as the case may be).

 

The only way to really change it is from the inside.

 

PS I was concerned enough for my families future in the UK that I DID get off my arrrrrs to ensure that I was entitled to vote in the referendum on Brexit and voted in favour of it.

 

I also was concerned enough back in 1975 to vote in favour of confirming that the UK stayed in the EEC.

 

I felt at the time it was the correct decision but during the next 41 years the EEC morphed into something completely different that I had not expected nor did I vote for.

 

In 2016 I was given the opportunity of opposing the EU so I took it and along with over 17 million other people voted to leave.

 

Of course it is a mess but a mess caused by both the UK and the EU and NOT just by the UK.

 

Quote "But let’s have none of this nonsense of pointing fingers at Remain supporters".

 

Whyever not? They are quick enough to point their fingers at the Leavers.

 

If you want to dish it out then be prepared to expect something in return.

 

I try very hard not to be rude and insulting to any poster but a few of the Remainers thrive on insults to the Leavers.

[candide]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

If you would kindly tell me what I was aiming at I would be eternely gratefull, because from where I am at the moment you are just flaming.

Good question. Maybe I misunderstood. What were you aiming at when answering my precise quote? What is it that you intended to correct or complement?

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

Remainers getting excited about dark forces ??

 

It woz the Russians that done it.

 

Ohhhh wait

 

It woz Cambridge Analytica that done it

 

Ohhhh wait.

 

Perhaps it was a Right Wing Coup that done it.

 

Ohhhh wait

 

Perhaps it was a soft coup and not a Right Wing Coup that done it.

 

Every excuse in the book pulled out of the @rse of remainers because they cannot accept that just over 17 million voters are not racist, xenophobes or Right Wing Nazi's.

 

 

I guess if you have a limited attention span and narrow field of vision, this comment might seem reasonable.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, candide said:

Good question. Maybe I misunderstood. What were you aiming at when answering my precise quote? What is it that you intended to correct or complement?

Yes you did misunderstand, quite frankly I have had enough of your nonsense, au revoir.

[Grouse]

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/06/28/hard-brexit-is-unravelling

 

as always, The Economist is our guide ?

[aright]

16 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What has a bunch of misguided Thai footballers got to do with this thread? Off Topic.

No more than some myopic bloke from Barnsley advertising bread and butter

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/06/28/hard-brexit-is-unravelling

 

as always, The Economist is our guide ?

What's the point of putting a link up that no one can read.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

38 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What has a bunch of misguided Thai footballers got to do with this thread? Off Topic.

Your generosity of spirit and sense of humanity, trail behind you, a long, long way behind you.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

In a thread of bizarre posts, this has the take the biscuit. Were you on a fishing exercise when you posted this morning? Do you take personally the feedback you get from strangers on social media? Do you honestly believe that I did not click like out of spite, or because we have differing views over Brexit? Words almost fail me.

“In a thread of bizarre posts, this has the take the biscuit”

 

Garibaldi please

 

“Were you on a fishing exercise when you posted this morning?”

 

No

 

“Do you take personally the feedback you get from strangers on social media?”

 

Not at all

 

“Do you honestly believe that I did not click like out of spite, or because we have differing views over Brexit?”

 

No, that is something that is entirely between you and the man in the mirror.

 

 

“Words almost fail me”

 

Doesn't much look like it, they appear to be by far your strongest suit.

[Grouse]

30 minutes ago, vogie said:

What's the point of putting a link up that no one can read.

Limited number Economist articles are free 

[Grouse]

24 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Your generosity of spirit and sense of humanity, trail behind you, a long, long way behind you.

Still off topic

 

Going caving in monsoon season!

 

Ah! They're Brexiters are they? Thought there must be some link!

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

So your explanation for the Remainers' choice is either (1) arrogant and selfish, or (2) afraid of the unknown? Those are the sum total justifications, in your mind? Are these really the only two options you can conceive?

 

 

There enough to be going on with. Perhaps you can tell us,which group you belong in.

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

There enough to be going on with. Perhaps you can tell us,which group you belong in.

The non-delusional?

[tebee]

7 hours ago, bristolboy said:

The non-delusional?

Unfortunately the UK government is in the delusional group, busy negotiating with itself.

 

[The Renegade]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

Unfortunately the UK government is in the delusional group, busy negotiating with itself.

 

Well done tebee, you actually got one right ?

 

Now why is the UK Government negotiating with itself ?

 

To put it simply, it is impossible to negotiate when one party to the negotiations are only interested in negotiating full capitulation to Brussels, the ECJ and the continued handover of £ Billions to Brussels.

 

Or, if you mean the internal UK Government negotiations. There is also a simple explanation for this. They are called Remainers, who cannot accept the result of a Democratic vote.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

The problem with criticising the government is that is all many people can do. They are not willing to DO anything about it other than complain on threads like this.

 

Every 4 or 5 years in the UK there is a general election where those who can be bothered to get off their arrrrrs and vote have the opportunity to replace their MP if they can find enough like minded people who agree with them.

 

If they really want to change the system then they should stand for election and state their case. If it is good enough they will be elected as an MP with all the responsibility that entails, and possibly somewhere down the line they may be promoted to be a minister and have a better chance to change the way things are run.

 

To complain in a forum anonymously as many do may make them feel better but sadly it will not change the way that politics works (or not as the case may be).

 

The only way to really change it is from the inside.

 

PS I was concerned enough for my families future in the UK that I DID get off my arrrrrs to ensure that I was entitled to vote in the referendum on Brexit and voted in favour of it.

 

I also was concerned enough back in 1975 to vote in favour of confirming that the UK stayed in the EEC.

 

I felt at the time it was the correct decision but during the next 41 years the EEC morphed into something completely different that I had not expected nor did I vote for.

 

In 2016 I was given the opportunity of opposing the EU so I took it and along with over 17 million other people voted to leave.

 

Of course it is a mess but a mess caused by both the UK and the EU and NOT just by the UK.

 

Quote "But let’s have none of this nonsense of pointing fingers at Remain supporters".

 

Whyever not? They are quick enough to point their fingers at the Leavers.

 

If you want to dish it out then be prepared to expect something in return.

 

I try very hard not to be rude and insulting to any poster but a few of the Remainers thrive on insults to the Leavers.

I’ve been a member of a plotical party all my adult life and I have worked, either paid or as a volunteer on local and national elections, party conferences, candidate proposals and selections.

 

Your view is simplistic, there are many ways to effect change in a democracy.

 

If you believe asking where the government’s negotiating position is, or pointing out that Brexit is an utter shambles is ‘dishing it out’.... stay out of politics.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Well done tebee, you actually got one right ?

 

Now why is the UK Government negotiating with itself ?

 

To put it simply, it is impossible to negotiate when one party to the negotiations are only interested in negotiating full capitulation to Brussels, the ECJ and the continued handover of £ Billions to Brussels.

 

Or, if you mean the internal UK Government negotiations. There is also a simple explanation for this. They are called Remainers, who cannot accept the result of a Democratic vote.

And here is the start of it.

 

Blaming Remain for the failures of Brexit.

 

 Get used to this, you’ll hear a lot more of it in the future.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Unfortunately the UK government is in the delusional group, busy negotiating with itself.

 

Well, some of its members are. The rest see a train wreck coming but don't see a politically palatable way of getting off.

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

There enough to be going on with. Perhaps you can tell us,which group you belong in.

I think we have reached a near consensus in the past that the EU has issues that must be tackled - in fact, there are few who would argue against that. What I believe, however, is that Brexit is not the correct response to those issues, and that we will lose much more than we will gain.

[bristolboy]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:27 AM, The Renegade said:

That headline should read

 

Why ?

 

From yesterday's remainer Bible - AKA the Guardian.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/29/eu-uk-divide-poses-serious-threat-to-brexit-talks-says-barnier

 

The cat is now well and truly out of the bag. The project must be saved at all costs.

 

Quit with the fake negotiations. play the 3 cards in my previous comment.

 

 

Sit back and watch the EU / Barnier squirm like snakes in a sack.

Yes because it's clearly unfair of the EU to insist that with privileges come obligations.  The EU isn't a buffet where you get to pick and choose what you want and not pay for it.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Well done tebee, you actually got one right ?

 

Now why is the UK Government negotiating with itself ?

 

To put it simply, it is impossible to negotiate when one party to the negotiations are only interested in negotiating full capitulation to Brussels, the ECJ and the continued handover of £ Billions to Brussels.

 

Or, if you mean the internal UK Government negotiations. There is also a simple explanation for this. They are called Remainers, who cannot accept the result of a Democratic vote.

The problem is there are lots of factions inside the government, just as there are lots of factions on here and in the UK public in general.

 

All of these factions fear for their political career.

 

There are those, like you, who want a clean break brexit - they fear for the reaction of the electorate  if they don't give it.

 

There are those who want the Canada dry FTA, which is what the EU offered. They fear that hard brexit will be too devastating to the UK economy and the electorate will blame them for that.

 

There are those who want brexit in name only or to go the EEA route. They fear the Canada option will still be bad for jobs - it doesn't cover services which account for 80% of our GDP - and they will get blamed for both starting the ensuing recession and not leaving the EU properly.

 

Then there are those who want to remain as it's the only option which does not damage the economy and they think the mood in the country is slowly changing as people start to realize just how much they were mislead before the referendum. 

 

There is lots of magical thinking  about other solutions, but it's been 2 years and no one has come up with one yet, so finding one in the next couple of weeks seems unlikely.

 

So can you think of a way all those people can come together behind one solution ? They have painted themselves into a corner - all possible solutions will upset at least part of the voting public either now or when the effects are felt. It's a politicians job ( but not his duty) to get him and his party re-elected. No one wants to make a decision because each solution possible is politically damaging.

 

  

[Eloquent pilgrim]

One of the simple, yet inescapable problems that the UK faces in negotiating with the EU, is that from the moment the referendum result was declared, Junker, Merkel et al, have been motivated by their worst nightmare scenario; that is, that the UK get a fair and mutually agreeable deal on leaving.

 

They fear above all else, that if the UK get a smooth and reasonable exit, that others will be tempted to leave. They have now become possessed by this fear, as Europe sees the rise of ‘populist’ parties throughout, and they can start to feel the cold air rising from the abyss in the east of the continent.

 

Do we not have to seriously question the wisdom of ever having joined a Union that tries to imprison its members and make it extremely difficult to leave, just in order to deter others from so doing ?

 

Still, at least we don’t have to negotiate with Brigadier-General Gholam Reza Jalali, head of Iran’s civil defence organisation. Yesterday the General accused Israel of manipulating the weather to prevent rain over the country, claiming that it was facing cloud “theft”  ……. You couldn't make it up, could you, I hope Junker hasn't been conferring with him

[The Renegade]

34 minutes ago, tebee said:

it doesn't cover services which account for 80% of our GDP

Now why would that be ?

 

Would it be because the EU / Barnier have stated that that a 3rd Country cannot supply Services to the EU ?

 

Well, let me debunk that little myth for all the remainers.

 

US, who are not a member of the EU, Trade in Services 2016.

 

Quote

Trade in services with the EU (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $407 billion in 2016.  Services exports were $231 billion; Services imports were $176 billion.  The U.S. services trade surplus with the EU was $55 billion in 2016.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

 

Although I will concede that the UK is far too reliant on '' Services '' and needs to start '' Making '' the majority of stuff that we currently import at home for the UK market.

 

Remind me again of ANY major economy that is a NET importer that is actually doing well for itself and is not up to it's neck in debt ?

[The Renegade]

21 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

One the simple, yet inescapable problems that the UK faces in negotiating with the EU, is that from the moment the referendum result was declared, Junker, Merkel et al, have been motivated by their worst nightmare scenario; that is, that the UK get a fair and mutually agreeable deal on leaving.

Correct

 

21 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

They fear above all else, that if the UK get a smooth and reasonable exit, that others will be tempted to leave.

Now, why would other Countries want to leave a happy, clappy club ? Surely, it cannot be that the happy, clappy club is nowhere near as happy, clappy as some would try to have us believe ?

 

21 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do we not have to seriously question the wisdom of ever having joined a Union that tries to imprison its members and make it extremely difficult to leave, just in order to deter others from so doing ?

Actually, this was done by stealth where the electorates had no say, by the introduction of various Treaties. In the few Countries where they did have a vote, they were made to '' Vote again until the correct result was achieved ''

 

For me it boils down to one of 2 things.

 

Are the EU Institutions there to facilitate smoothness between EU member Countries ?

 

Or

 

Are EU member Countries subservient to the EU Institutions ?

 

Everything that I read, hear or see tells me that EU member Countries are subservient to the EU Institutions, so time to get rid of National Parliaments. These are now an unneeded, costly expense that is only causing problems.

 

The EU, cannot and will not, ever be harmonious with both EU Institutions and National Parliaments.

 

In other words, the long dreamed of Supranational State.

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Yes because it's clearly unfair of the EU to insist that with privileges come obligations.  The EU isn't a buffet where you get to pick and choose what you want and not pay for it.

Yes you are correct. It is do as we say or else, whilst we pretend that we are joyous, loving, people orientated organisation, that takes away your rights, laws and culture. We also run it from a small place in Belgium call Brussels.  If you don't do as we say or dare try and leave, we will try our best to punish you.  No wonder there are quite a few countries in the so called beloved EU, who are thinking about getting out. If only they were given the chance or opportunity.

[whatsupdoc]

24 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

One of the simple, yet inescapable problems that the UK faces in negotiating with the EU, is that from the moment the referendum result was declared, Junker, Merkel et al, have been motivated by their worst nightmare scenario; that is, that the UK get a fair and mutually agreeable deal on leaving.

 

They fear above all else, that if the UK get a smooth and reasonable exit, that others will be tempted to leave. They have now become possessed by this fear, as Europe sees the rise of ‘populist’ parties throughout, and they can start to feel the cold air rising from the abyss in the east of the continent.

 

Do we not have to seriously question the wisdom of ever having joined a Union that tries to imprison its members and make it extremely difficult to leave, just in order to deter others from so doing ?

 

Still, at least we don’t have to negotiate with Brigadier-General Gholam Reza Jalali, head of Iran’s civil defence organisation. Yesterday the General accused Israel of manipulating the weather to prevent rain over the country, claiming that it was facing cloud “theft”  ……. You couldn't make it up, could you, I hope Junker hasn't been conferring with him

What is it with Brexiteers that they complain about the EU making it difficult for the UK to leave??? You pay your dues and just leave. No deal, it is easy.

But if you want cake and cherries, yes then it is a different matter. In that case EU rules still apply and the EU holds all the cards. Actually, also easy but you just have to accept what the EU is willing to offer.

It only gets difficult if you do not know what you actually want from the EU, but you cannot blame the EU for that.