All Aussie Related Stuff (excluding the old age pension)

[KhunHeineken]

50 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

Sure hope that proves to be the case, then I can spend a lot more time in Thailand.

Don't you want to remain a resident for tax purposes?  

[KhunHeineken]

50 minutes ago, Will27 said:

If they do bring in this proposed 183 day rule, surely it would be reasonable to exempt the OAP, disability and DVA pensions.

They very well might exempt it, or, it's classified as "income" and is up for grabs. 

 

I think the 183 days rule coming in is inevitable.  Will have to wait and see if there are any exemptions.  

[KhunHeineken]

49 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

What’s reasonable doesn’t always have much in common with what’s the law!

When there's tax funds involved, you can bet the laws favor the government, not the individual.  

 

The 183 days rule, as the primary test, is a big change, and I am sure they would only make a big change if they know it's going to make them big money.  

[KhunHeineken]

35 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Again, this is a statement with which has no basis.

It's just incorrect.

 

You're quoting from a debt collection agency which is hardly objective.

It hasn't said anything that hasn't been mentioned before.

 

As I've said, people can be stopped from leaving the country with CSA and tax debts.

It's nothing new.

 

I don't think the ATO will enforce overseas debt, unless it's a massive amount.

Even then it's hardly common.

 

It's pretty much not cost effective.

They write the debt off and it gets raised again when the person enters Australia.

 

 

Someone with HECS debt takes that debt to the grave.  It doesn't get written off. 

 

They very well may just leave it at waiting for the expat to return to Australia.  We will just have to wait and see. 

 

I just can't see them allowing thousands of retired expats to escape their tax debts because they will never return to Australia.  I'm sure they have a plan to counter that.  I put forward one idea they may implement, but maybe they will do nothing outside of Australia.   

[KhunHeineken]

29 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I think the system is pretty much the same TBH.

 

It all depends on debt level and circumstances.

IMO, people getting stopped from leaving the country for a run of the mill tax debt won't happen.

They may put thresholds on the debt that are matched up with actions, at the airport.  Example, if you owe over a certain amount, you can't leave. 

 

It's gets messy then, but like I have said, they are not bringing in the 183 days rule without some enforcement over all the new tax debtors that it will create, and that's us, the expats.  

[Will27]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Someone with HECS debt takes that debt to the grave.  It doesn't get written off. 

 

They very well may just leave it at waiting for the expat to return to Australia.  We will just have to wait and see. 

 

I just can't see them allowing thousands of retired expats to escape their tax debts because they will never return to Australia.  I'm sure they have a plan to counter that.  I put forward one idea they may implement, but maybe they will do nothing outside of Australia.   

I'm not sure about HECS debt but I assume it's the same as an ATO debt.

In most cases if the person is overseas, it is written off.

 

[KhunHeineken]

40 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

That point is true. Also another reason for the changes are,

 

Recently, the Government announced that it would "modernise" the individual tax residency provisions in the 2021-22 Federal Budget. Whilst we are yet to see any draft legislation in relation to this, the Government did mention that the rules will be based on the recommendations made by the Board of Taxation (BOT) which we have summarised below.

PROBLEMS WITH OUR CURRENT RULES

Our current residency provisions are principle based and generally require a detailed analysis of current case law which often leads to confusion and incorrect application of our residency tests.

Currently, individuals are considered tax residents of Australia if they pass any of the following tests:

• The individual resides in Australia according to ordinary concepts; or
• The individual spends more than 183 days in Australia unless their usual place of abode is elsewhere; or
• The individual's domicile is in Australia unless they have a permanent place of abode elsewhere; or
• The individual is a member of certain government superannuation schemes.

https://www.mondaq.com/australia/income-tax/1109524/proposed-changes-to-the-tax-residency-provisions-for-individuals-explained

 

Current residency rules are complicated and this new proposal will simplify the definition of residency, when and if it is legislated.

 

Whether pensioners are affected by the proposed changes is yet to be determined.

Yes, all the clauses and sub-clauses of the old residency laws will be done away with when the the implementation of the 183 days primary test comes in. 

 

People on a pension who are outside of Australia for 183 days will have to wait and see if their pension will be deemed as "income." 

 

One thing is for sure, they know you receive a pension, and they know you are outside of Australia for 183 days, which makes you a non resident for taxation purposes.  

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I'm not sure about HECS debt but I assume it's the same as an ATO debt.

In most cases if the person is overseas, it is written off.

 

I know finance companies write of bad debtors after about 7 years.  

 

I'm not so sure the government does the same.  

[Will27]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

They may put thresholds on the debt that are matched up with actions, at the airport.  Example, if you owe over a certain amount, you can't leave. 

 

It's gets messy then, but like I have said, they are not bringing in the 183 days rule without some enforcement over all the new tax debtors that it will create, and that's us, the expats.  

I'm pretty sure that is not workable.

 

Each case that has a departure prohibition order issued (CSA and ATO) is decided on a case by case basis.

It's not done automatically or on debt levels.

 

For the ATO, you would have to have a massive debt, Paul Hogan for example.

 

The days of Barry the Bricklayer being stopped from leaving the country over a $1000 debt to the ATO doesn't or won't happen IMO.

 

 

[Will27]

10 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I know finance companies write of bad debtors after about 7 years.  

 

I'm not so sure the government does the same.  

The ATO writes off debts all of the time.

It makes their figures look good when they announce to Parliament how much debt is outstanding.

 

It's got nothing to do with a time frame.

If they deem the debt is uneconomical to pursue, it's gets written off.

 

And lets face it, most debts would fall under that.

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I'm pretty sure that is not workable.

 

Each case that has a departure prohibition order issued (CSA and ATO) is decided on a case by case basis.

It's not done automatically or on debt levels.

 

For the ATO, you would have to have a massive debt, Paul Hogan for example.

 

The days of Barry the Bricklayer being stopped from leaving the country over a $1000 debt to the ATO doesn't or won't happen IMO.

 

 

Just to make things clear, I am not talking about a tax debt that someone is paying back.  That person can come and go.  I am talking about a tax debt that has gone into the collection process.

 

[seajae]

On 7/4/2018 at 8:29 AM, ripstanley said:

I had to produce to Medicare my travel details.  There is a form from Department of Home Affairs that you have to complete to obtain this information. Some departments do not have access to the immigration data base

He is a link to the form.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/forms/Documents/1359.pdf

 

 

 

my medicare card expired years ago and they will not issue a new one as I do not live in Australia anymore, the address I was living at before I moved over here many years ago agreed to just forward my mail to me but the owner had a blow up with his wife and when my new medicare card arrived she sent it back as no longer living at this address, now I am unable to get a new card

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, Will27 said:

The ATO writes off debts all of the time.

It makes their figures look good when they announce to Parliament how much debt is outstanding.

 

It's got nothing to do with a time frame.

If they deem the debt is uneconomical to pursue, it's gets written off.

 

And lets face it, most debts would fall under that.

I disagree.

 

Say Danny the Dope expat sells an investment property in Australia because he needs the money to build his lovely new Thai wife a house in Buriram.  There's thousands dollars in capital gains tax owed. 

 

Barry the Bricklayer might get his $1000 debt written off, but I doubt Danny the Dope will get his tax debt written off. 

 

I always pay my debts.  I wouldn't even contemplate not paying back an ATO debt, but I have no problem with arranging my finances in order to minimize my ATO liability.    

[CygnusX1]

43 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Don't you want to remain a resident for tax purposes? 

I was reacting to oznomad’s post -

“It's generally harder to become non-resident than resident.

The new (incoming) rules prove that point.

Less than 45 days in 3 consecutive years to be able, in some circumstances, to become non-resident.”

 

From the link to the Holding Redlich site - 

• ceasing long-term residency: The individual must spend less than 45 days in the current income year in Australia and less than 45 days in Australia in each of the two preceding income years

So, this seems to state that even if I wanted to become a non-resident for tax purposes, it’s very hard - the ATO will only let me become a non-resident if I spend less than 45 days in Australia, and then only in some circumstances. That’s why I was thinking, great, I now only have to spend 45 days in Australia, and then I’m a resident for tax purposes.

 

Again, the 183 day rule is only stage 1 - to be declared a non resident you have to satisfy other requirements.

 

 

[Will27]

23 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Just to make things clear, I am not talking about a tax debt that someone is paying back.  That person can come and go.  I am talking about a tax debt that has gone into the collection process.

 

Yes I know you are.

DPO's are not issued against people who have an arrangement to pay.

[4MyEgo]

13 minutes ago, seajae said:

my medicare card expired years ago and they will not issue a new one as I do not live in Australia anymore, the address I was living at before I moved over here many years ago agreed to just forward my mail to me but the owner had a blow up with his wife and when my new medicare card arrived she sent it back as no longer living at this address, now I am unable to get a new card

How very nice of her.

 

For those who don't go back before the 5 year expiry period, go online and tell them you lost it, they will send a new one to your registered address with a new 5 years period on it, then get someone to send it over.

 

Works for me, and as my card expires in July 2023, I will be doing the same thing again, i.e. going online and telling them that I lost it, so as I am heading to Australia in September, I will be going online in August telling them that I lost it again, so will pick it up when over there in September.

 

Got to play the game, was unfortunate that I couldn't renew my licence online, so will have to renew it when back there as it's expired for over a year now, and the bummer is you can only renew it for 5 years, no more 10 year period when your over 44 years of age.

[Will27]

18 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I disagree.

 

Say Danny the Dope expat sells an investment property in Australia because he needs the money to build his lovely new Thai wife a house in Buriram.  There's thousands dollars in capital gains tax owed. 

 

Barry the Bricklayer might get his $1000 debt written off, but I doubt Danny the Dope will get his tax debt written off. 

 

I always pay my debts.  I wouldn't even contemplate not paying back an ATO debt, but I have no problem with arranging my finances in order to minimize my ATO liability.    

You can disagree all you want, but you'd be wrong.

 

Under the current rules, if Danny the Dope has moved to Thailand and done the smart thing and cleared out his bank account and sold off his assets, the debt will be written off.

 

How do you envisage it being collectable I wonder.

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

I was reacting to oznomad’s post -

“It's generally harder to become non-resident than resident.

The new (incoming) rules prove that point.

Less than 45 days in 3 consecutive years to be able, in some circumstances, to become non-resident.”

 

From the link to the Holding Redlich site - 

• ceasing long-term residency: The individual must spend less than 45 days in the current income year in Australia and less than 45 days in Australia in each of the two preceding income years

So, this seems to state that even if I wanted to become a non-resident for tax purposes, it’s very hard - the ATO will only let me become a non-resident if I spend less than 45 days in Australia, and then only in some circumstances. That’s why I was thinking, great, I now only have to spend 45 days in Australia, and then I’m a resident for tax purposes.

 

Again, the 183 day rule is only stage 1 - to be declared a non resident you have to satisfy other requirements.

 

 

I did note that part.  Of course, for most expats living in Thailand full time, this is no joy for them. 

 

If you are outside Australia more than 183 days, and that's the primary test, but inside Australia for more than 45 days, and that's stage two test, which one will they rely upon? 

 

It offers some hope, but I can't see someone living overseas for 10.5 months of the year being deemed a resident for taxation purposes because they spend 1.5 months of the year in Australia.   

[CygnusX1]

KhunHeineken, look at the following link posted by ozfarang - 

 

https://www.moore-australia.com.au/news-and-views/september-2021/proposed-changes-to-the-tax-residency-provisions-f?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=LinkedIn-integration

 

Read the list of secondary tests, then look at their specific example of David, who wants to be a non-resident for tax purposes but can’t be, as last year he spent 50 days in Australia visiting his wife and children.

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

How very nice of her.

 

For those who don't go back before the 5 year expiry period, go online and tell them you lost it, they will send a new one to your registered address with a new 5 years period on it, then get someone to send it over.

 

Works for me, and as my card expires in July 2023, I will be doing the same thing again, i.e. going online and telling them that I lost it, so as I am heading to Australia in September, I will be going online in August telling them that I lost it again, so will pick it up when over there in September.

 

Got to play the game, was unfortunate that I couldn't renew my licence online, so will have to renew it when back there as it's expired for over a year now, and the bummer is you can only renew it for 5 years, no more 10 year period when your over 44 years of age.

You can't renew your license online because you have to do the eye test.  

 

Good tip on the Medicare card.  

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, CygnusX1 said:

KhunHeineken, look at the following link posted by ozfarang - 

 

https://www.moore-australia.com.au/news-and-views/september-2021/proposed-changes-to-the-tax-residency-provisions-f?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=LinkedIn-integration

 

Read the list of secondary tests, then look at their specific example of David, who wants to be a non-resident for tax purposes but can’t be, as last year he spent 50 days in Australia visiting his wife and children.

Ok, so why the 183 days?  Why not make it 45 days?  

[Will27]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You can't renew your license online because you have to do the eye test.  

 

Good tip on the Medicare card.  

Depends on the state and your age I think.

 

I've renewed mine online.

[CygnusX1]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Ok, 

so why the 183 days?  Why not make it 45 days?

This is really starting to tie my brain up in knots of logic! Look at it from the perspective of someone who wants to be a non resident for tax purposes.

Has he been in Australia for more than 183 days? Then he can’t be a non-resident, no debate.

Has he been in Australia for less than 183 days? Then he might still be a resident if he’s spent more than 45 days in Australia and has family in Australia, or a house or economic interests in Australia.

So in my case, because I satisfy the secondary criteria such as having a house and close relatives in Australia, as long as I spend at least 45 days in Oz each year I couldn’t be declared a non resident even if I wanted to be. Spend less than 45 days in Oz for a few years, then I might be at risk of being declared a non resident.

[4MyEgo]

38 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You can't renew your license online because you have to do the eye test.  

 

Good tip on the Medicare card.  

Oddly enough I didn't need an eye test when I renewed it over 5 years ago when I was 56, as mentioned it expired a year ago, rules changing all the time.

 

Yes the Medicare one is a keeper, because once that lapses, you have to re-establish your residency.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Firstly, I never used the words "cancel" or "refuse."  I would think the word "withhold" or "pending" would be the nice way the government would put it, and would probably cover them legally.  I never mentioned anything about cancelling citizenship.

 

Once again, this was just my idea of a method they may use to enforce the debt.  They don't have many options with expats, but the passport is one, and let's face it, it would make 99.9% of expat debtor pay, or make arrangements to pay, because without a passport, you are in big trouble as an expat, and the Australian government knows it.

 

I just can't see them casting a big net with the 183 day rule, without anything up their sleeve for enforcement.  I have posted links that one can be stopped from leaving Australia, maybe they will just leave it at that, and if / when the expat returns to Australia, then it gets sorted out.  

To summarise, "in your opinion",

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, CygnusX1 said:

This is really starting to tie my brain up in knots of logic!

Don't feel bad, rest assured you are not alone.

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

To summarise, "in your opinion",

"I just can't see them casting a big net with the 183 day rule, without anything up their sleeve for enforcement.  I have posted links that one can be stopped from leaving Australia, maybe they will just leave it at that, and if / when the expat returns to Australia, then it gets sorted out.  

To summarise, "in your opinion",

 

The serious errors, angst, and very serious upset to old people (and others) caused by their 'robodebt' serious disaster might also be in their thinking. Yes different department/ministry but same government, and the mud sticks, I doubt they would allow themselves anywhere near a second 'crash'.

[Lacessit]

20 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

The serious errors, angst, and very serious upset to old people (and others) caused by their 'robodebt' serious disaster might also be in their thinking. Yes different department/ministry but same government, and the mud sticks, I doubt they would allow themselves anywhere near a second 'crash'.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind as to the ability of government bureaucrats and politicians to screw things up repeatedly.

Bushfires, floods, contact tracing, hotel quarantine, RAT kit availability - how many examples do you need?

Nearly forgot - $40 billion in Jobkeeper going to businesses who did  not need it, and won't give it back.

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

You can disagree all you want, but you'd be wrong.

 

Under the current rules, if Danny the Dope has moved to Thailand and done the smart thing and cleared out his bank account and sold off his assets, the debt will be written off.

 

How do you envisage it being collectable I wonder.

 

You are correct, and I have posted before that the only way to get out from under the ATO is to have no assets in Australia for them to tax. 

 

I know guys that have sold up and moved all their money to a bank in Singapore.  All they have left in Australia is a passport, sim card, license, and a bank account with $10 in it.  The ATO has nothing to chase, and nothing to freeze.  

 

It is a  bit extreme, but in many ways I envy them, and may have to do the same myself in the future.  It sure would be nice to do it and not have to worry about this rubbish ever again.  

 

However, this isn't the type of expat I was talking about.  I'm talking about an expat that may have a rental property, some shares, a super fund, some savings, and so on.  Income from all of these could be on the non resident tax rate chopping block.  

 

Guys on pensions is a little different, and would depend if the pension is deemed as "income."  

 

As for collecting, what you have described is basically doing a runner.  He probably couldn't go back to Australia, because he wouldn't be able to leave until he has made arrangements with the ATO.

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, CygnusX1 said:

This is really starting to tie my brain up in knots of logic! Look at it from the perspective of someone who wants to be a non resident for tax purposes.

Has he been in Australia for more than 183 days? Then he can’t be a non-resident, no debate.

Has he been in Australia for less than 183 days? Then he might still be a resident if he’s spent more than 45 days in Australia and has family in Australia, or a house or economic interests in Australia.

So in my case, because I satisfy the secondary criteria such as having a house and close relatives in Australia, as long as I spend at least 45 days in Oz each year I couldn’t be declared a non resident even if I wanted to be. Spend less than 45 days in Oz for a few years, then I might be at risk of being declared a non resident.

It would appear the million dollar question is, if someone is inside Australia for more than 45 days, but outside Australia for more than 183 days, are they a resident or non resident for tax purposes?