17 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Disappointed the vote was split over the last two questions I think an accurate reflection of members views is those last two added together. A 60/40 split which is still surprising as I'd have thought 80% of us would have realized the 'reds under the bed' scenario is an outdated farce. USA does and Russia does and I wish they'd all stop.

 

You're disappointed posters don't see things your way? Gee....that bites. And yeah, sure, lets apply some creative manipulation to get a more "accurate reflection" in line with your view. It's all about "reds under the bed" - nothing whatsoever to do with Russia's stance and actions.

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I guess the post you made just before that one is a good starting point as any.

Please quote the posts to support your point - rather than relying on insinuation.....

16 hours ago, upu2 said:

The USA of course

 

The US doesn't claim Russia the only threat to world peace.

And the topic isn't even about whether Russia is a a threat to world peace, but whether it is an enemy of the west.

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

If you indeed do not follow or read RT, ever - then your take on the supposed propaganda equivalency are about as dodgy as RT "reports". To put it in other words, what you apparently imagine to be government propaganda is the light version. The "from our own countries" bit is odd - do you imagine that all information/media outlets in Western countries are controlled? Western media outlets routinely criticize governments. Some do it along partisan lines, some in a more objective or even-handed manner. But the point is it's always there, one way or another.

You may well be right insofar as perhaps I should read russian propaganda to provide a 'reference point' to western propaganda.

 

Edit - I'm not a 'fan' of propaganda in either form, so am unlikely to look for yet another source...

Please stay on topic.   The topic isn't Russian history.   

 

17 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

"we don't want to go back to a cold war"

But the US sure does.

For two reasons-the first being their primitive dualistic notions of the world as they are are more comfortable with this notion than any other.

The second being is that there is money in them thar guns..lots and lots of glorious money..world without end..glorious money...

 

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So, when it's something that's negative toward Russia, distinction between government and people are advocated. When it comes to the US, not so much. And, of course, nothing in Russia's (or Russia's government) actions could be remotely construed as confrontational, right? It's all about the US. Pull the other one.

 

The two rubbish generalizations don't even merit a comment.

 

 

You do have a point insofar as some of us 'judge' our own countries' rulers more harshly as (despite frequent evidence to the contrary...) we expect better from them.

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Please quote the posts to support your point - rather than relying on insinuation.....

 

Both my replies were in reference to posts you made on this topic (nevermind parallel ones). But since you pretend otherwise....

 

The notion that Western governments' use of propaganda is equivalent or on-par with practices by the likes of Russia is incorrect. Not that the former doesn't engage in such, just that the extent to which Western governments can control media is limited in comparison. The narrative claiming equivalency (for example, such as in "can trust neither", "all are the same") is essentially a Russia propaganda construct. Since it cannot be claimed that Russian media is not restricted or that the level of freedom of information is similar, the next best argument is to discredit the "opposition" by asserting it is "the same". Adopting this narrative is essentially embracing Russian propaganda talking points.

 

Criticizing Western governments is all very well (and  that we can engage in such, actually makes the point) - without losing sight of the fact that for all their faults they are not the same as, say, Russia.

Troll post removed. 

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

You do have a point insofar as some of us 'judge' our own countries' rulers more harshly as (despite frequent evidence to the contrary...) we expect better from them.

 

There's a difference between judging Western governments more harshly due to expectations and giving others a free pass or benefit of the doubt. I think it is obvious that at least with regard to some of these "other countries" it would be beneficial to promote this attitude, as it both discredits Western governments and takes pressure off their own backs.

Again, Putin's Russia is an ENEMY. 

It's not rocket science to get that.

 

Quote

 

McCain chides Trump for calling Putin a ‘competitor,’ says he must hold Russian leader accountable

...

"Putin is not America's friend, nor merely a competitor," McCain said in the statement. "Putin is America's enemy - not because we wish it so, but because he has chosen to be."

McCain then ticked off a series by transgressions by Putin, including the "attack" on the U.S. election and efforts "to undermine democratic institutions throughout the world." In addition, McCain cited the Russian annexation of Crimea and his support of Syrian President Bashar Assad's "slaughter of the Syrian people."

 

 

 

I think this is a very informative analysis of how we got here, that both acknowledges the logic of the Russian POV but also calls it clear the obvious truth that Russia is indeed a major enemy of the USA, the west, and liberal democracy in general.

That doesn't mean they are the enemy of every nation of course. 

I think most of us here are WESTERNERS though.

 

Quote

 

Russia might have been lost from the start

...

And Putin, sitting atop the “vertical of power” he had created, began a serious effort to restore Russian influence and undermine the West and its democratic values. What has followed — the interventions in Georgia and Ukraine, the alliance with President Bashar al-Assad in Syria, the cyberattacks against Western countries — has all been in service of that strategy.

 

So yes, the West might have missed an opportunity to transform Russia in the early ’90s. We will never know whether it would have been successful. But what we do know is that there were darker forces growing in Russia from the beginning, that those forces took over the country almost two decades ago and that Russia has chosen to become the principal foe of America and the American-created world order.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/russia-might-have-been-lost-from-the-start/2018/07/19/e45c1a42-8b92-11e8-8aea-86e88ae760d8_story.html

Europeans don't think in terms of 'enemy' mr Scott. 

Mostly Americans do.

On 7/20/2018 at 2:18 PM, wabothai said:

Europeans don't think in terms of 'enemy' mr Scott. 

Mostly Americans do.

 

Inane generalizations ftw.

On 7/20/2018 at 2:18 PM, wabothai said:

Europeans don't think in terms of 'enemy' mr Scott. 

Mostly Americans do.

Tell that to the Latvians, Estonians, Ukranians and Poles among many others.

I have no idea if it's the enemy but it certainly isn't a friend and it certainly can't be trusted.   

I have no idea if it's the enemy but it certainly isn't a friend and it certainly can't be trusted.   

Close enough for jazz.  

Worth a look.

 

 

https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/34-years-ago-a-kgb-defector-described-america-today

 

 

 "34 years ago, a KGB defector chillingly predicted modern America

 

...

 In 1984, Bezmenov gave an interview to G. Edward Griffin from which much can be learned today. His most chilling point was that there’s a long-term plan put in play by Russia to defeat America through psychological warfare and “demoralization”. It’s a long game that takes decades to achieve but it may already be bearing fruit."

 

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4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Close enough for jazz.  Worth a look.
 
 
https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/34-years-ago-a-kgb-defector-described-america-today
 
 
 "34 years ago, a KGB defector chillingly predicted modern America
 
...
 In 1984, Bezmenov gave an interview to G. Edward Griffin from which much can be learned today. His most chilling point was that there’s a long-term plan put in play by Russia to defeat America through psychological warfare and “demoralization”. It’s a long game that takes decades to achieve but it may already be bearing fruit."
 
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Very interesting read. Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Inane generalizations ftw.

correction of my statement: americans and israelians.

Not to the GOP.

If you want to sell guns and bombs then the world needs villains  real or  imaginary. Iran and Venazuela not enough need Russia.

1 hour ago, The Old Bull said:

If you want to sell guns and bombs then the world needs villains  real or  imaginary. Iran and Venazuela not enough need Russia.

Russia = REAL. 

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, upu2 said:

The USA of course

Only some people in the USA.

22 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Close enough for jazz.  

Worth a look.

 

 

https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/34-years-ago-a-kgb-defector-described-america-today

 

 

 "34 years ago, a KGB defector chillingly predicted modern America

 

...

 In 1984, Bezmenov gave an interview to G. Edward Griffin from which much can be learned today. His most chilling point was that there’s a long-term plan put in play by Russia to defeat America through psychological warfare and “demoralization”. It’s a long game that takes decades to achieve but it may already be bearing fruit."

 

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Regardless of who causes it, though it's more likely to be the other player than Russia, the west will fall, IMO in this century. Our governments are too corrupt, the people too soft and divided ( a house divided and all that ) to resist a strong and ruthless opponent. The real opponent ( not Russia ) is strong, ruthless, united, and prepared to take the long road to victory.

Europe and Australasia basically gave up after the fall of the USSR and have opted to shelter behind the US, rather than build their own strong militaries.

Putin's Russia is kindergarten compared to Nikita K's  "cold war"Soviet Union Russia.  The  Soviet Russia threaten Nuclear war  with the west and helped spread communism, built wall's around E.Germany to keep people in.. That was the enemy, Putin's Russia isn't the enemy,after all, Obama proclaimed this in a UN speech.

"Throughout his two terms in office, Obama played down the threat Russia posed to America’s allies, interests and values, and ridiculed those who warned otherwise".

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/24/why-its-hard-to-take-democrats-seriously-on-russia-215415

Here is how the Russian government used disinformation and cyber warfare to disrupt the 2016 election

" Cyberwarfare is no longer just about the technical details of computer ports and protocols. Rather, disinformation and social media are rapidly becoming the best hacking tools. With social media, anyone – even Russian intelligence officers and professional trolls – can widely publish misleading content. As legendary hacker Kevin Mitnick put it, “it’s easier to manipulate people rather than technology. Russia’s propaganda machine duped American voters”

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/russian-government-used-disinformation-cyber-warfare-disrupt-2016-election/

That's what the US media seems to think.  I think Russia should be our ally.  And I don't agree with my government's hostility towards Assad & Maduro.  Those are good guys, not bad guys.

Russia will always be the enemy. Putin is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Off-topic post removed.  

 

On 7/11/2018 at 3:09 PM, dick dasterdly said:

I had to think for a moment there!  Presumably RT is something along the lines of russia today?

 

The answer is - NEVER.

 

Why on earth would anyone "tune into RT or visit their website" (assuming my guess is correct)?  We have enough propaganda from our own countries to sift through, without looking into other countries' propaganda!

Try watching RT run and spoken by Yanks ?

The concept of Russia being an enemy is in my opinion something made up to detract from the real problems with the country