Trump calls Germany 'captive' of Russia; demands higher defence spending

[bristolboy]

49 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 If Germany is "captive" of Russia because their energy  reliance, Then what is the US to China for its reliance of financing it's debt? 

Actually China doesn't have all that much of the US's debt. Total U.S. debt is 17.8 trillion. China holds about 1.17 trillion

 

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts about Hillary Clinton have been removed. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

Can you imagine if PT cut a deal with Vlad for 400 billion 

I’m all for examining Trump’s deals with the Russians.

 

Are you?

[Becker]

1 hour ago, mcambl61 said:

Hmmmm, well we do have actual facts about Shillary, she violated several federal statutes and she lied about it and was protected by the FBI and the Obama Administration. we have actual evidence of this and the media is silent and blatantly ignoring it and the cover up.

 

the point being, the main stream media and all the newspapers and all the European media never bothered to dig into anything. there is no sane person that does not see the hypocrisy and double standard. pretend all you want boy.

Who are the "we" you are referring to - you and the rest of the tinfoil hat brigade...boy?

[mcambl61]

32 minutes ago, Becker said:

Who are the "we" you are referring to - you and the rest of the tinfoil hat brigade...boy?

no, the public record. boy

[tomacht8]

Trump's behavior in Brussels is another disturbing signal that he is "more loyal to President Putin than to our NATO allies." In tone more restrained, but in the matter was similar to the criticism of Republican Senator Bob Corker. He is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee: "Trump's rhetoric harms us, it's like slapping our friends on the nose, and then we're shaking hands with people who work hard against us, like Russia and Putin."

[Becker]

34 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

no, the public record. boy

What public (and non-loony) record?

[puck2]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

By now you should know Trump lies and misinforms practically every day, even in front of people during meetings who know he is lying. Germany is not reliant on one supplier / one source. Refer to charts below which identifies German energy production from natural gas was 13.2% in 2017.

 

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts

May I add this:

just a few days before you could read in reliable newspapers that renewable energies in Germany produce now  more electricity than coal. And the part of renewable energy will be higher year by year. Then Germany will be "captive" of Russia?

 

Highly uninformed Trump prefers it vice versa. Stupidity wins, at least in America's government.

[Opl]

5 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

If EU doesnt soon pay its share of the costs of NATO,  that is what Trump will threaten to do.

And if that doesnt work, he will start scaling down the US involvement in NATO.

That the US pays more as a % of GDP than Germany or UK of France is an example of USA being far too easy in the past -  a ridiculous situation that Trump is going to change.

 

USA pays $664billion of a $918billion bill?  To defend Europe?? WW2 ended when??

Russia annexed Crimea when?? NATO did what about it??  Waste of USA money - money that US taxpayers pay.

 

 

 

"America is spending its defence dollars principally for its own security needs, as well as to support a range of interests and allies in other regions around the world, not exclusively Europe. Not all of Europe’s defence spending is dedicated to European territorial defence either. France and the UK are engaged in operations globally, and maintain a number of military bases abroad. For instance, the UK spent £666m (US$903m) on operations in 2016, while in France these costs were estimated at €1.3bn (US$1.4bn) the same year."

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-balance/2018/07/us-and-nato-allies-costs-and-value

[Srikcir]

5 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

That the US pays more as a % of GDP than Germany or UK of France is an example of USA being far too easy in the past

No, it's an example of the USA having spread its military forces across all parts of the world, not just in Europe where most of the NATO members are located. Not to mention that part of the US aerospace program is partially funded in its defense budget. The US percent of GDP for defense spending isn't typically published for NATO only.

 

[Srikcir]

15 hours ago, webfact said:

Trump calls Germany 'captive' of Russia

Here's the German news reaction:

 

[attrayant]

6 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

7 hours ago, sukhumvitneon said:

 

Time for the US to just leave NATO instead.

If EU doesnt soon pay its share of the costs of NATO,  that is what Trump will threaten to do.

And if that doesnt work, he will start scaling down the US involvement in NATO.

 

This makes no sense.  Why does Trump insist that member nations pay more?  Because he wants to keep NATO alive and functioning.  If he wants to keep NATO alive and functioning, then why leave NATO or threaten its effectiveness by reducing our contribution?  The only reason this would happen is because Trump is taking orders from Putin.

 

Let's get one thing straight: The USA doesn't do anything that isn't in its own best interest.  Forget whether or not others are paying what they should - is the USA getting what it thinks it should be getting for its 3.5% contribution?  If the answer to that question is no, then maybe we ought to reduce our contribution.  If the answer is yes, then why is Trump getting his panties in a bunch?

 

The reason we continue to pay into NATO is because we're getting something from it, and it's in our national security interest to continue.

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

"America is spending its defence dollars principally for its own security needs, as well as to support a range of interests and allies in other regions around the world, not exclusively Europe. Not all of Europe’s defence spending is dedicated to European territorial defence either. France and the UK are engaged in operations globally, and maintain a number of military bases abroad. For instance, the UK spent £666m (US$903m) on operations in 2016, while in France these costs were estimated at €1.3bn (US$1.4bn) the same year."

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-balance/2018/07/us-and-nato-allies-costs-and-value

Furthermore, the% war budget rates are not so easily comparable. The US has pensions of their soldiers in the war budget, while countries of the EU account this in the general social budget.

 

Trump likes to twitter populist half-truths and lies. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

8 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

If EU doesnt soon pay its share of the costs of NATO,  that is what Trump will threaten to do.

And if that doesnt work, he will start scaling down the US involvement in NATO.

That the US pays more as a % of GDP than Germany or UK of France is an example of USA being far too easy in the past -  a ridiculous situation that Trump is going to change.

 

USA pays $664billion of a $918billion bill?  To defend Europe?? WW2 ended when??

Russia annexed Crimea when?? NATO did what about it??  Waste of USA money - money that US taxpayers pay.

What on earth are you talking about? There is no $918 billion bill. That figure is the total of what all the NATO members spend on their own defence budgets. The US spends $664 billion on its overall defence budget, which is used to fund its military throughout the entire world. As another poster pointed out, only a small percentage (around 5%) of the US total of $664 billion is spent directly on European defence.

 

The US spends a higher proportion of its GDP on its own defence budget purely because it chooses to, in order to maintain an extremely strong military machine and a worldwide presence. Once again, the 5% or so of the US defence budget that goes towards NATO spending is a relatively minor consideration in terms of the overall budget.

Edited July 12, 2018 by GroveHillWanderer

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

Let's get one thing straight: The USA doesn't do anything that isn't in its own best interest.  Forget whether or not others are paying what they should - is the USA getting what it thinks it should be getting for its 3.5% contribution?  If the answer to that question is no, then maybe we ought to reduce our contribution.  If the answer is yes, then why is Trump getting his panties in a bunch?

 

The reason we continue to pay into NATO is because we're getting something from it, and it's in our national security interest to continue.

 

Of course, per your post above, another possibility for why Trump is lying and distorting about the U.S. role vs Europe in funding NATO is he in fact is taking orders from Putin or has some kind of backroom deal with him for his own financial interests.

 

And part of that deal could be to find a way to lessen or eliminate U.S. sanctions on Russia and/or weaken NATO by reducing the U.S.'s role/funding and/or withdrawing the U.S. from NATO altogether on the excuse that the other countries aren't paying their supposed fair share.

 

I wouldn't put anything past the Swamp King if it comes down to an issue of lining his own pockets.

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[sirineou]

11 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Actually China doesn't have all that much of the US's debt. Total U.S. debt is 17.8 trillion. China holds about 1.17 trillion

 

 Actually  The U.S. debt to China is $1.19 trillion as of March 2018. That's 19% of the $6.29 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

But more important IMO is that this large percentage of foreign owned debt is controlled by a communist central government.

      So Germany imports most of its natural gas from Russia (between 50 and 75%) ,but gas comprise only 20% of the overall energy mix of Germany.  If we were to accept even the higher 75% estimate of gas importation this stil only comprises  about 15% of the overall energy 

So Germany depends on Russia for 15% of its energy  and the US depends on China for 19% of its foreign financed debt.

Who would you say is more "captive" .

 

 

 

[mcambl61]

27 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 Actually  The U.S. debt to China is $1.19 trillion as of March 2018. That's 19% of the $6.29 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

But more important IMO is that this large percentage of foreign owned debt is controlled by a communist central government.

      So Germany imports most of its natural gas from Russia (between 50 and 75%) ,but gas comprise only 20% of the overall energy mix of Germany.  If we were to accept even the higher 75% estimate of gas importation this stil only comprises  about 15% of the overall energy 

So Germany depends on Russia for 15% of its energy  and the US depends on China for 19% of its foreign financed debt.

Who would you say is more "captive" .

 

 

 

those are some good points. agreed the debt is a problem that has to be solved.

 

the core of the comment and subject is the get the EU to actually pay what they agreed for the alliance. even more important, Germany is the EU's most prosperous country and there is no excuse to not meet the 2% obligation.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

 Actually  The U.S. debt to China is $1.19 trillion as of March 2018. That's 19% of the $6.29 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

But more important IMO is that this large percentage of foreign owned debt is controlled by a communist central government.

      So Germany imports most of its natural gas from Russia (between 50 and 75%) ,but gas comprise only 20% of the overall energy mix of Germany.  If we were to accept even the higher 75% estimate of gas importation this stil only comprises  about 15% of the overall energy 

So Germany depends on Russia for 15% of its energy  and the US depends on China for 19% of its foreign financed debt.

Who would you say is more "captive" .

 

 

 

Let's say China sells all its treasury bonds tomorrow? What do you think would happen?

[Srikcir]

On 7/12/2018 at 5:58 AM, webfact said:

Having lambasted NATO members for failing to reach a target of spending 2 percent of national income on defence, Trump told fellow leaders in Brussels he would prefer a goal of 4 percent

In fact Trump said it was agreed that NATO would increase defense spending to 4% by January 2019, and claimed victory for the US. 

“I can you tell you that Nato now is a really a fine-tuned machine. People are paying money that they never paid before. They’re happy to do it. And the United States is being treated much more fairly,”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/12/donald-trump-nato-summit-chaos-germany-attack-defence-spending

France's Macron immediately rebutted Trump's victory dance:

“There is a communique that was published yesterday. It’s very detailed,”  “It confirms the goal of 2% by 2024. That’s all.” https://www.ft.com/content/f73ebf10-85c6-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d

Trump signed that communique.

 

[maximillian]

21 hours ago, riclag said:

What gets me is Germany making energy deals with Russia. This is  outrageous !

 

Those energy deals, among many other deals with Russia are very beneficial for both countries.

So far the Sovjets/Russians were very reliable trade partners. I really hope the next German government will stop the sanctions imposed by Merkel/Obama/Trump regime.

What are the US afraid of ?  Russia and Germany co-operating, one supplying technology and knowledge, the other one oil, gas and a hundred more resources.

 

Google: Stratfor speech: "100 years US attack on German-Russian alliance "

 

 

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, maximillian said:

Those energy deals

Nord Stream 2 always also reflected a willingness among many Germans on the left and right of the political spectrum to engage Russia, rather than to provoke it.

“Natural gas pipelines implied mutual trust within a stable relationship, which led to further collaborations, including cooperation in nuclear power,”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/07/11/the-russian-pipeline-to-germany-that-trump-is-so-mad-about-explained/?utm_term=.64b293f53c5b

Remember that up to March 2014 Russia had been part of the G8. The original G6 organized by the US was designed to deal with worldwide money troubles in the early 1970s; Russia joined in 1988. 

It's such hypocrisy now that while Trump wants to re-engage the US relationship with Russia on both economic and security fronts that he is critical of Germany's limited economic engagement with Russia.

 

[riclag]

15 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Trump's behavior in Brussels is another disturbing signal that he is "more loyal to President Putin than to our NATO allies." In tone more restrained, but in the matter was similar to the criticism of Republican Senator Bob Corker. He is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee: "Trump's rhetoric harms us, it's like slapping our friends on the nose, and then we're shaking hands with people who work hard against us, like Russia and Putin."

You should be more concerned from the former eastern block comrade leader of Germany

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

You should be more concerned from the former eastern block comrade leader of Germany

More doublethink from a member of the bizarre right wing. When opponents go after Trump for his Russian connections, his supporters say that Russia is no longer communist. As if that's the reason for animus and not Putin's invasions of his neighbors. But now, instead of recognizing the threat the the Baltic nations fear from Russian, you invoke Merkel's communist past. 

[riclag]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

 Actually  The U.S. debt to China is $1.19 trillion as of March 2018. That's 19% of the $6.29 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

But more important IMO is that this large percentage of foreign owned debt is controlled by a communist central government.

      So Germany imports most of its natural gas from Russia (between 50 and 75%) ,but gas comprise only 20% of the overall energy mix of Germany.  If we were to accept even the higher 75% estimate of gas importation this stil only comprises  about 15% of the overall energy 

So Germany depends on Russia for 15% of its energy  and the US depends on China for 19% of its foreign financed debt.

Who would you say is more "captive" .

 

 

 

 But Russia is more of a threat ,because the left says so.Exactly why PT wants to change the way the USA does business with the Globalist mob and China . Through Tariffs  and fair trade. Once those Tariffs start kicking in,its loan independence for America

[riclag]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

More doublethink from a member of the bizarre right wing. When opponents go after Trump for his Russian connections, his supporters say that Russia is no longer communist. As if that's the reason for animus and not Putin's invasions of his neighbors. But now, instead of recognizing the threat the the Baltic nations fear from Russian, you invoke Merkel's communist past. 

Wrong, Independent (feeling guilty cause I'm white) voter!

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

Wrong, Independent (feeling guilty cause I'm white) voter!

Whether you are officially registered as a member of any party is irrelevant and unproveable. What is clear is that all the political opinions you've voiced here coincide exactly with those entirely in the bag for Trump. But thanks for establishing the racial component of your support.

[riclag]

2 hours ago, maximillian said:

 

Those energy deals, among many other deals with Russia are very beneficial for both countries.

So far the Sovjets/Russians were very reliable trade partners. I really hope the next German government will stop the sanctions imposed by Merkel/Obama/Trump regime.

What are the US afraid of ?  Russia and Germany co-operating, one supplying technology and knowledge, the other one oil, gas and a hundred more resources.

 

Google: Stratfor speech: "100 years US attack on German-Russian alliance "

 

 

What are the USA afraid of ! Are you kidding me!!!!! Suppose PT goes to meet Vlad and they stop in the Grocery store. If PT goes in the Salad dressing aisle and buys Russian Dressing,the MSM news cycle will be hysterical for 1 week.MSM are killing democracy

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by riclag

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

What are the USA afraid of ! Are you kidding me!!!!! Suppose PT goes to meet Vlad and they stop in the Grocery store. If PT goes in the Salad dressing aisle and buys Russian Dressing,the MSM news cycle will be hysterical for 1 week.

 

Or suppose Trump says it was OK for Russian to invade the Crimea because they all speak Russian. 

Oh wait, he already said that.

[tumama]

3 hours ago, maximillian said:

 

Those energy deals, among many other deals with Russia are very beneficial for both countries.

So far the Sovjets/Russians were very reliable trade partners. I really hope the next German government will stop the sanctions imposed by Merkel/Obama/Trump regime.

What are the US afraid of ?  Russia and Germany co-operating, one supplying technology and knowledge, the other one oil, gas and a hundred more resources.

 

Google: Stratfor speech: "100 years US attack on German-Russian alliance "

 

U.S is afraid of competition. When the Soviet Union fell they needed to create another enemy. Thus Al-Qaida was born. Now when Russia is becoming a new super power again, they are yet again the boogey man, so they can continue peddling arms deals through unnecessary NATO.

 

It's ridiculous how we Europeans think that Russia will invade us or meddle in our elections when it's US that has a long track record of doing that.

 

 

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, tumama said:

 

U.S is afraid of competition. When the Soviet Union fell they needed to create another enemy. Thus Al-Qaida was born. Now when Russia is becoming a new super power again, they are yet again the boogey man, so they can continue peddling arms deals through unnecessary NATO.

 

It's ridiculous how we Europeans think that Russia will invade us or meddle in our elections when it's US that has a long track record of doing that.

 

 

Tell that to the Ukraine and Georgia. And see if Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Norway, and others don't share concerns about Russian aggression.