Major Change Eff 1 Apr 19 in Bangkok Bank ACH Transfers

[Langsuan Man]

What I still don't understand about this change is how is a customer supposed to "force" their US bank to suddenly change their EFTS system to comply with these  IAT  requirements 

 

I was under the impression that US banks have been using the "know your customer" policy for several years now, so other than some bureaucratic bumbling on the part of Bangkok Bank, why now put the requirement on the customer, and not on the bankers that are making the money off of the fees, Bangkok Bank 

[skatewash]

7 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

What I still don't understand about this change is how is a customer supposed to "force" their US bank to suddenly change their EFTS system to comply with these  IAT  requirements 

 

I was under the impression that US banks have been using the "know your customer" policy for several years now, so other than some bureaucratic bumbling on the part of Bangkok Bank, why now put the requirement on the customer, and not on the bankers that are making the money off of the fees, Bangkok Bank 

I have quite the opposite reaction.  Far from Bangkok Bank bumbling they were able to figure out a clever way to allow expats to send money to Bangkok Bank in Thailand by using the ACH system and their NY branch.  The process worked very well until the US government ratcheted up the enforcement of financial reporting rules, demanding even more information about the transaction which is not included in a (domestic) ACH, and thus invalidated the clever solution Bangkok Bank came up with.  The US government is to blame for that, not Bangkok Bank.  Any other US bank that would offer a similar service to Bangkok Bank wherein a domestic ACH transaction results in money being sent overseas would run into the same obstacle.

[Jingthing]

Just to confirm people that already have established ACH links setup and have used them before should expect them to work as before until the cutoff date, which is in April 2019? If not, are people will already established links experiences rejections they haven't seen before?

Thanks. 

[skatewash]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Just to confirm people that already have established ACH links setup and have used them before should expect them to work as before until the cutoff date, which is in April 2019? If not, are people will already established links experiences rejections they haven't seen before?

Thanks. 

Yes, my expectation from reading this thread is that already established links between your US bank and Bangkok Branch NY will continue to work as before until the cutoff date (which I have seen variously mentioned as either March or April of 2019).  I've seen no reports of anyone being unsuccessful with an already established link.

[srowndedbyh2o]

9 hours ago, Pib said:

They pretty much just quoted what is on their website.

I see on the BKK Bank website the instructions for IAT transfers, but don’t see the “...another two options to transfer funds...”.

 

The first option: “Request you bank to wire transfer funds through NY branch...”

My bank charges the same amount for domestic and International wire transfers.

Any advantage to doing a domestic wire transfer to BKKBNY as opposed to an International wire directly to my bank in Thailand?

 

The 2nd option, mailing a check to BKKBNY seems a very long, time-consuming process.

[srowndedbyh2o]

Just got off the phone with BKKBKNY.

 

When I asked about doing a Domestic wire transfer to BKKBKNY vs an International wire transfer directly to my bank account in Thailand, she stated that unless my bank has an agreement directly with BKKBK Thailand (she stated C.Schwab does not) then an International wire transfer will be routed through BKKBKNY anyway.

 

I also asked if it would be possible to just email the information required, recipient personal address and bank branch address, to BKKBKNY and then follow through with the ACH transfer as before, and she stated that all info would have to come directly from the sending bank along with the transfer.

 

She also stated their may be additional updates to the current instructions on the BKKBK website, and also stated that they “hope” direct deposit pensions and SS payments will not be affected.

[Pib]

5 hours ago, srowndedbyh2o said:

She also stated their may be additional updates to the current instructions on the BKKBK website, and also stated that they “hope” direct deposit pensions and SS payments will not be affected.

Hopefully U.S. govt payments will not be affected since the U.S. Treasury OFAC ruled earlier U.S. govt payments did not have to comply with the IAT format at least for now.   Plus U.S. govt payments have additional identifying info in them. 

 

And normally a "Direct Deposit" from a company can have additional info also such as talked below...additional info that is not include in a typical ibanking Domestic ACH transfer.   

 

http://cs.thomsonreuters.com/ua/acct_pr/acs/cs_us_en/topics/z_firm_dd_advanced_setup_dlg.htm

[Pib]

Below is a snapshot from the Bankgok Bank webpage talking use of the NY branch for transfers/payments.  Even folks who received payments for "e-commerce" will apparently see changes. 

 

If I remember right whatever detailed instructions that use to appear for e-commerce transfers/payments also disappeared when the old detailed info regarding "ibanking" transfers disappeared.  But as we know, new detailed instructions for ibanking transfers is now back on their website....that is, you gotta use IAT for ibanking transfers.  But for the e-commerce transfers there is still no new instructions. 

 

Anyone know what the old e-commerce instructions said?   Anyway, my "guess" is when some new e-commerce instructions do appear they will say use of IAT format is required....but as mentioned, I'm guessing.

 

[jeffandgop]

On 8/9/2018 at 7:51 PM, Pib said:

Yea...since they haven't changed the wording about a pension from a "private organization" that implies to me they should still flow.  And they can flow to a regular savings account; a special Direct Deposit account is not needed. 

 

From looking at the different pensions from U.S. govt organizations it easy to see they are from U.S. govt organizations and have my name in the transfer.  And I expect there is underlying coding that further identifies them as a government organization.   All kinds of underlying coding in an ACH transfer.  This make it easy for Bangkok Bank NY to see they coming from a U.S. govt organization.

 

But with so, so many different companies that pay out pensions or maybe a person has a monthly distribution flowing from an IRA or some other investment will Bangkok Bank be able to determine those are "pensions" versus just another financial transfer.  But such a payment is basically a "Direct Deposit" and is suppose to have special coding which identifies it as a Direct Deposit vs just another transfer.  Will be interesting  to see what really happens come Apr 19 with private organization payments. 

 

And I wonder if a person was just doing a ibanking transfer into his Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account if the NY branch might let that go through....probably not...but you never know.  I've done ibanking transfer into my Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account (which I still have but don't have my pension payments going to it)  simply because of some FATCA reasons to keep the wife from needing to submit a separate FACTA report.    Come Apr 19 I might try an ibanking transfer to my Direct Deposit acct to see if it rejects...it probably will but I won't know for sure until trying.

 

Yea, I'm sure Bangkok Bank has a headache over this issue  and know where some loopholes that might still exist but they are not going to tell us...or they are working to close them...or maybe just leave them open.  Well, just have to wait until Apr 19 and see what some TV poster report.

 

Edit: and maybe it's worth a question to the NY branch to ask about civilian pensions and IRA/Investment type monthly/quarterly/periodic payments coming from companies say such as Fidelity, etc. Ask if they can continue to flow as before or do they now need to be in IAT format also. If they say such payment have to be in IAT format also,  then say, well that's not what our website says....your website implies they can continue to flow because the wording remains unchanged.

I read early on the bank notice about private pensions would be unaffected but I don't believe that is the intent of that piece of instruction. If there is any transfer via ACH that is other than US Government furnished funds, Bangkok Bank will not process it. That's what I believe.

This change benefits me financially. If Bangkok Bank hadn't terminate ACH transfer I would have continued paying the fees for my monthly pension and additional fees for the soon-to-be-initiated social security payments (& the headaches to have to have those deposited in a special account and the hassle to appear personally to withdraw any money). This caused me to check how my credit union deals with foreign debit card withdrawals. I will pay 0 credit union fees for any withdrawals, they'll reimburse up to $6 for any Bangkok Bank fees, and at a branch I visited of Bangkok Bank they said that they use the TT rate for the currency exchange and there is no fee for counter debit withdrawals...I will go to my home branch to validate these statements. If true, I'll be able to avoid all fees on both the sending and receiving ends.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

, and at a branch I visited of Bangkok Bank they said that they use the TT rate for the currency exchange and there is no fee for counter debit withdrawals...I will go to my home branch to validate these statements. If true, I'll be able to avoid all fees on both the sending and receiving ends.

I use to do counter withdrawals at a Bangkok Bank branch....they did not charge any fee for a counter withdrawal.  But as for exchange rate you get the exchange rate of the card-network....that is, if your card is a Visa card you get the Visa exchange rate....if a Mastercard you get the Mastercard exchange rate.  Go to their exchange rate webpages to see their rates.

 

Now the TT Buying Rate used for "incoming international transfers" just happens to be close to the card network rate, but the TT Buying Rate is "not" used for ATM/counter withdrawals.

 

Whey you use your card in a bank ATM or at the counter you get the card-network rate "except if the bank tries to pull a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) exchange transaction" which will be approx 3%  lower than the full card network rate.   DO NOT accept a DCC....great profit for the bank at your expense.

 

And don't forget any fee your "card-issuing" bank/credit union may apply to the card.  Since you said you CU card reimbursed X-amount of fees it's unlikely they charge a foreign transaction, but be sure to confirm with them which can usually be easily done by reviewing the card's disclosure at your CU website.  

Edited August 12, 2018 by Pib

[jeffandgop]

21 hours ago, Pib said:

I use to do counter withdrawals at a Bangkok Bank branch....they did not charge any fee for a counter withdrawal.  But as for exchange rate you get the exchange rate of the card-network....that is, if your card is a Visa card you get the Visa exchange rate....if a Mastercard you get the Mastercard exchange rate.  Go to their exchange rate webpages to see their rates.

 

Now the TT Buying Rate used for "incoming international transfers" just happens to be close to the card network rate, but the TT Buying Rate is "not" used for ATM/counter withdrawals.

 

Whey you use your card in a bank ATM or at the counter you get the card-network rate "except if the bank tries to pull a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) exchange transaction" which will be approx 3%  lower than the full card network rate.   DO NOT accept a DCC....great profit for the bank at your expense.

 

And don't forget any fee your "card-issuing" bank/credit union may apply to the card.  Since you said you CU card reimbursed X-amount of fees it's unlikely they charge a foreign transaction, but be sure to confirm with them which can usually be easily done by reviewing the card's disclosure at your CU website.  

I appreciate all of your posts I've read on this topic.

As I said above, my CU will charge 0 fees for a foreign debit withdrawal (I have a MasterCard debit card)- I've already confirmed that.

Yesterday I went to Bangkok Bank where my account is held and they said the exchange rate used for a debit withdrawal is the bank's selling rate that day.  That was great news since it is better than the TT rate...but then they later changed/corrected that to say the exchange rate used for a debit withdrawal is the bank's BUYING rate that day- which is less than the TT rate. See the file att for details of what all these rates were as of Friday. They also stated that they do not use the MasterCard or the VisaCard exchange rate for foreign debit withdrawals. Bangkok Bank's ATM withdrawal fee is 220B per transaction for up to 25,000 B & the daily limit is your debit card daily limit.  Counter withdrawals are 0 fees & the daily limit is your debit card daily limit as well.

At this stage I'm going to do a test debit withdrawal at Bangkok Bank's counter to find out what whether the exchange rate matches anything they've told me....I'll let you know later. this week.

Edited August 12, 2018 by jeffandgop

[Pib]

I'm sure there was a miscommunication...or the Bangkok Bank rep was just wrong.  I've done so many counter withdrawals at Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank branches I've lost track.    You will get the the card-network (i.e, Visa, Mastercard) exchange rate minus an foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply.   TT Buying and Selling Rate is used for international incoming and outgoing, respectively, wire transfers.

 

And please note the counter withdrawal will be processed as a Point of Sale (POS) transaction like when you buy an item.  This means the initial transaction should appear as a "Pending Purchase" on your CU account and you will not know the know the final card network exchange rate received until the transaction "posts final" to your account.   The date used for the exchange rate will be the card-network "settlement" date which may be different that the actual transaction date...different from the Tranaction, Purchase, or Post dates which you may see on you CU account.  And you may see the transaction date change when the transaction goes from Pending to Posted.    

 

For a debit card cash withdrawal transaction when all the Pending, Purchase, Post, Settlement dates dust settles associated with a POS transaction do not assume the Post date is the exchange rate date used.  It may be any date between the actual transaction and the posting date.  But for a cash withdrawal I've found it to usually be the actual transaction date but for purchase of goods/services it may not be. 

 

Once the transaction posts look at the exchange rates on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate page and you will find an exchange rate somewhere between the actual transaction date and posting date that exactly matches the exchange rate  you received.   Once again, this assumes no fees were applied by anyone which effectively lowers the exchange rate.

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Pib

[jimmyyy]

I just sent a message to my bank Navy Fed CU to see what they say, sent them the link and what i thought the issue might be.  I will post back for benefit of any members who might bank there once a reply is sent.

[jimmyyy]

Guess after Apr 2019, i will need to send SWIFTS at 25.00 bucks a pop. 

 

The banks response. 

 

Hi, Jimmy. Navy Federal is able to receive IAT transfers, but at this time we don't originate them. There are some other options for transferring money, including wires and Western Unions. You can find more info about those on our website: https://nfcu.me/2MGZjbW. ~Seraphina

[jeffandgop]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:59 AM, Pib said:

I'm sure there was a miscommunication...or the Bangkok Bank rep was just wrong.  I've done so many counter withdrawals at Bangkok Bank and Krungsri Bank branches I've lost track.    You will get the the card-network (i.e, Visa, Mastercard) exchange rate minus an foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may apply.   TT Buying and Selling Rate is used for international incoming and outgoing, respectively, wire transfers.

 

And please note the counter withdrawal will be processed as a Point of Sale (POS) transaction like when you buy an item.  This means the initial transaction should appear as a "Pending Purchase" on your CU account and you will not know the know the final card network exchange rate received until the transaction "posts final" to your account.   The date used for the exchange rate will be the card-network "settlement" date which may be different that the actual transaction date...different from the Tranaction, Purchase, or Post dates which you may see on you CU account.  And you may see the transaction date change when the transaction goes from Pending to Posted.    

 

For a debit card cash withdrawal transaction when all the Pending, Purchase, Post, Settlement dates dust settles associated with a POS transaction do not assume the Post date is the exchange rate date used.  It may be any date between the actual transaction and the posting date.  But for a cash withdrawal I've found it to usually be the actual transaction date but for purchase of goods/services it may not be. 

 

Once the transaction posts look at the exchange rates on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate page and you will find an exchange rate somewhere between the actual transaction date and posting date that exactly matches the exchange rate  you received.   Once again, this assumes no fees were applied by anyone which effectively lowers the exchange rate.

 

Today I'll do a debit withdrawal from my US Credit Union account from the Bangkok Bank counter. What we understand the Bangkok Bank rep to say is when I do the withdrawal, the Thai Baht exchange rate will be the Bank Notes Buying Rate for the USD $50 in effect at the time- in the above chart that would be 32.84 netting me 3,284THB for a $100 US debit withdrawal (again, no fees on either bank side).  Then, at some point, my US Credit Union will post the amount withdrawn from that account based on the MC exchange rate...so presuming that the MC exchange rate is consistently more favorable than the Bangkok Bank Buying Rate, what will be debited will be less than $100 from my US bank...

I'll let you know the results...

[claynlr]

PayPal is sending an e-mail advertising Xoom for international transfers. I punched in $3000 and it was 96972.90THB at an exchange rate of 32.3243 and a fee of 4.99 if you use a bank account. If you use a debit or credit card the fee went to 599.99!

[Pib]

4 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

Today I'll do a debit withdrawal from my US Credit Union account from the Bangkok Bank counter. What we understand the Bangkok Bank rep to say is when I do the withdrawal, the Thai Baht exchange rate will be the Bank Notes Buying Rate for the USD $50 in effect at the time- in the above chart that would be 32.84 netting me 3,284THB for a $100 US debit withdrawal (again, no fees on either bank side).  Then, at some point, my US Credit Union will post the amount withdrawn from that account based on the MC exchange rate...so presuming that the MC exchange rate is consistently more favorable than the Bangkok Bank Buying Rate, what will be debited will be less than $100 from my US bank...

I'll let you know the results...

 

It will not be the bank note rate nor will it be the TT Buying Rate assuming your do not accept a DCC transaction.  It will be the Visa/Mastercard rate minus any foreign transaction fee your card-issuing CU charges.

[Hank Gunn]

1 hour ago, claynlr said:

PayPal is sending an e-mail advertising Xoom for international transfers. I punched in $3000 and it was 96972.90THB at an exchange rate of 32.3243 and a fee of 4.99 if you use a bank account. If you use a debit or credit card the fee went to 599.99!

Someone mentioned Xoom in an earlier post of this thread (a few weeks ago) and when I checked it out, they did not have Thailand as a supported country for international transfers. After seeing your post I checked their website again and it appears that they now support Thailand.

 

Definitely a decent option, especially since I'm a PYPL stockholder. ?

[Pib]

2 hours ago, claynlr said:

PayPal is sending an e-mail advertising Xoom for international transfers. I punched in $3000 and it was 96972.90THB at an exchange rate of 32.3243 and a fee of 4.99 if you use a bank account. If you use a debit or credit card the fee went to 599.99!

That exchange rate is approx 3% below the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate and Thai bank TT Buying Rate.  Heap on another $4.99 fee it's definitely good profit for Xoom/PayPal at the person's expense.

[Pib]

Below spreadsheet chart compares Mastercard, Visa, and FX mid market exchange rates.   Assumes "no fees" applied anywhere.

 

Mastercard and Visa Exchange Rate webpages used.  Visa USA exchange rate used; Visa Europe exchange rate webpage for European-issued cards may vary slightly.  XE.com webpage used for FX Market Rate as of 00:00 UTC for each date.   "Assumes no fees are applied such as foreign transaction fee, ATM Use fee, transfer fee, etc."

 

So, say you did a 30,000 baht ATM or counter withdrawal....or an electronic transfer like using Transferwise....and could do this withdrawal or transfer "with zero fees."  Which method would cost you the least?  Which card-network, MC or Visa, gives the best exchange rate?   How close are the MC/Visa exchange rate to the FX market rate taking in consideration that MC/Visa rates may lag FX market rates and card-network rates are set for a 24 hour period vs changing second-to-second like the FX rate?    Below chart answers those questions.

 

Say you wanted to do a Bt120K counter withdrawal instead of a Bt30K ATM or counter withdrawal?....well, just multiply by four the dollars amounts below which is the cost to you.   

 

One thing the chart shows is if you have a no foreign transaction fee debit card that reimburses ATM Fees or do a counter withdrawal to avoid the ATM Fee, then use of such a debit card is definitely the way to go since any money transfer services like Transferwise or your home country bank is going to charge a transfer fee and the Thai bank receiving fee is also going to be applied in some cases like a transfer from your home country bank.

 

[jeffandgop]

On 8/15/2018 at 5:17 AM, jeffandgop said:

Today I'll do a debit withdrawal from my US Credit Union account from the Bangkok Bank counter. What we understand the Bangkok Bank rep to say is when I do the withdrawal, the Thai Baht exchange rate will be the Bank Notes Buying Rate for the USD $50 in effect at the time- in the above chart that would be 32.84 netting me 3,284THB for a $100 US debit withdrawal (again, no fees on either bank side).  Then, at some point, my US Credit Union will post the amount withdrawn from that account based on the MC exchange rate...so presuming that the MC exchange rate is consistently more favorable than the Bangkok Bank Buying Rate, what will be debited will be less than $100 from my US bank...

I'll let you know the results...

Around 10:30 AM 15 August I did a Bangkok Bank Counter debit withdrawal of $100 from my US credit union. The bank applied their Buying Rate of 32.93 for the USD Currency (see att). Note that the TT rate at that time was 33.20.
My final settlement amount applied to my credit union account was a withdrawal of $98.90. That equates to an exchange rate applied of 33.296- higher than the TT rate. Interestingly enough, the MasterCard conversion website had as the exchange rate to be 33.366 for the 15th and 33.161 for the 16th; the 16th being the date back in the US when the Final settlement was posted to my credit union account. I can't deduce where the credit union exchange rate came from and could ask, but at this point really don't care.

Again, NO FEES from either banking institution is charged.

 

So, for me, counter debit withdrawals are the way to go. I've already requested and received approval from my credit union to raise my daily debit withdrawal limit to basically equate to the amount of money I received from my pension via ACH every month. Only one trip to the bank will be required each month to get my monthly expense money. And I am saving the equivalent of $25 per month in Bangkok Bank fees from using ACH AND obtaining a better rate than the TT rate.

[Pib]

4 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

Around 10:30 AM 15 August I did a Bangkok Bank Counter debit withdrawal of $100 from my US credit union. The bank applied their Buying Rate of 32.93 for the USD Currency (see att). Note that the TT rate at that time was 33.20.
My final settlement amount applied to my credit union account was a withdrawal of $98.90. That equates to an exchange rate applied of 33.296- higher than the TT rate. Interestingly enough, the MasterCard conversion website had as the exchange rate to be 33.366 for the 15th and 33.161 for the 16th; the 16th being the date back in the US when the Final settlement was posted to my credit union account. I can't deduce where the credit union exchange rate came from and could ask, but at this point really don't care.

Again, NO FEES from either banking institution is charged.

 

Some of this doesn't make any sense at least to me.  Maybe it just the way you wrote it.

 

First, you did not withdraw $100; you withdrew X-amount of Thai baht...how much Thai baht did you ask to withdraw?

 

Based on what you said was your final charge it appears you asked to withdrew 3,300 baht.   Is that correct or did you specifically ask to withdraw $100 which may have triggered a DDC transaction. 

 

Did the receipt for signature you signed have reflect both USD and THB?  If it did you accepted a DCC transaction but based on the numbers in your post I don't think you did but you didn't say how much baht your withdrew. Did the receipt reflect dollars "and" baht (both currencies)...or baht only?

 

And how do you know they applied their TT Buying Rate?  Did the rep specifically tell you that...was it printed out on your receipt...or are you making that assumption based on personal math? 

 

Or maybe you asked for $100 and the rep then did some personal math using their TT Buying Rate as a ballpark figure just to determine you were asking for 3,300 and that 3,300 baht is what the bank rep then entered into the POS machine.   And maybe the bank rep even ask/said at one point 3,300 baht?

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Pib

[jeffandgop]

18 hours ago, Pib said:

First, you did not withdraw $100; you withdrew X-amount of Thai baht...how much Thai baht did you ask to withdraw?

ANSWER: I asked to withdraw $100 from my US credit union via MC Debitcard. Teller provided 3,293THB which, based on the Buying Rate of 32.93 per $1 posted by Bangkok Bank, equaled $100USD.

 

Based on what you said was your final charge it appears you asked to withdrew 3,300 baht.

REPLY: NO, I did not request any baht amount. I requested Thai currency in exchange for me providing $100USD from my US Bank.

 

Did the receipt for signature you signed have reflect both USD and THB?

ANSWER: NO. Just the Thai Baht amount of 3,293.

 

And how do you know they applied their TT Buying Rate? 

ANSWER: I did not say that the TT rate was applied. 

 

Or maybe you asked for $100 and the rep then did some personal math using their TT Buying Rate as a ballpark figure just to determine you were asking for 3,300 and that 3,300 baht is what the bank rep then entered into the POS machine.   And maybe the bank rep even ask/said at one point 3,300 baht?

REPLY: NO & NO

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

On 8/17/2018 at 5:48 AM, jeffandgop said:

My final settlement amount applied to my credit union account was a withdrawal of $98.90.

One more question to confirm.  I know you said "final settlement" but I would just like to confirm that is what "Posted" to your CU account as final, final and was not actually in the Pending transaction category displaying on your CU account.   A counter withdrawal will hit your account immediately but still should be in the Pending transaction category until it's Posts/Goes Final.

 

From my experience of doing counter withdrawals since it's processed as a Point of Sale transaction this means it will usually take several business days for the transaction to go from Pending to Posted at which time the Posted amount can change from what was displayed when it was still in Pending transaction status.  

[jeffandgop]

16 minutes ago, Pib said:

One more question to confirm.  I know you said "final settlement" but I would just like to confirm that is what "Posted" to your CU account as final, final and was not actually in the Pending transaction category displaying on your CU account.   A counter withdrawal will hit your account immediately but still should be in the Pending transaction category until it's Posts/Goes Final.

 

From my experience of doing counter withdrawals since it's processed as a Point of Sale transaction this means it will usually take several business days for the transaction to go from Pending to Posted at which time the Posted amount can change from what was displayed when it was still in Pending transaction status.  

The "Pending" - specifically posted on the statement as "Purchase PreAuthorization"- amount was $98.65.  The Final amount posted as being the actual debit from my account was $98.90.

[Pib]

OK, here's what I think happened since we can't get any exchange rate...the Bangkok Bank Note, Sight Bill, or TT rates...or the MC "full" rate to match the charge that hit your credit union account.

 

When you went to Bangkok Bank and asked for a $100 withdrawal versus say asking for a particular baht amount, what the bank rep first does is just use their Note rate to convert to a baht amount.  The bank is "not" using this Note rate as the actual exchange rate to be charged to your account; they are just using it to determine the baht amount to accomplish the transaction in. 

 

The transaction is then processed in baht and the card-network exchange rate (Visa or Mastercard depending on your card) minus any foreign transaction fee charged (or not absorbed) by your card-issuing bank.  And like we've discussed already the actual settlement date may be different from the actual transaction date but I found for a cash withdrawal it usually turns out to be the actual transaction date.  

 

Above I mentioned "....minus any foreign transaction (or not absorbed) by your card-issuing bank."    I think what is happening here is your card-issuing credit union is indeed not charging any foreign transaction fee, however, they are not absorbing the Mastercard "transaction fee" which can range for 0.2% to 1% depending on the currency and the contract they have with your credit union.   This transaction fee is not bill directly to you by MC/Visa but to your card-issuing bank; however, since it's linked to your card your card-issuing bank can just relay that fee to you instead of absorbing it....it dosn't show up as a separate line item charged...it's just integrated into the total amount/exchange rate used.

 

So, when your credit union told you "they" do not charge any additional foreign fee they are technically telling the truth but at the same time they are not absorbing all related card transaction fees which means their card is not a true no foreign transaction fee card like the Schwab debit card routinely talked about on ThaiVisa.  The Schwab debit does not charge any foreign transaction fee and it absorbs the card-network transaction fee....not to be confused with also rebating any ATM Use fee.

 

A story talking card-network transaction fee:  Several years back when Capital One acquired ING they also revamped their debit and credit card fee structures....CapOne debt cards use to be true no foreign transaction fee cards, but in their fee restructure they said they do not charge any foreign transaction fee however there may be some Visa/Mastercard card-network transaction fees.   It was bankster weasel/vague wording for saying there still may be a small currency conversion related fee by Mastercard/Visa that will be passed on to you in the form of a lower exchange rate.   At that time the MC transaction fee could range from 0.2 to 1% and Visa 0.15 to 1.05%....the specific amount depended on the contract they had with the card issuing bank.  I fully expect the MC/Visa transaction fee structure is still very, very similar.

 

Anyway, about this time there began to be quite a few posts on ThaiVisa by people with Cap1 debit cards who could never get the exchange rate to match any exchange rate....not Visa rate...not MC rate...not any Thai bank rate....etc.   They use to be able to get the exchange rate to match, but no longer could.  Other MC card holders from other card-issuing banks were getting the exact MC rate.  But Cap1 customers were coming up 0.2% short on the exchange rate. 

 

Just like you experienced with your latest counter withdrawal.  When you crank in a 0.2% fee in the MC exchange rate page you will then get the exact amount that hit your credit union account.  See snapshot 1 at the bottom.

 

And this actually become a bigger complaint with all Cap1 customers.  In response to the complaints  Cap1 began to also absorb the card-network transaction fee and turned their debit card back into a true no foreign transaction fee debit card by not adding an fee "and absorbing" the card-network transaction fee.   Like I did a Bt150K counter withdrawal on 3 Aug...got the MC exchange rate for 3 Aug...and charging hitting my bank account was $4,515.59 which matched exactly the MC exchange rate page....matched to the penny since the Cap1 MC debit card is now a true no foreign transaction fee card which also absorb the MC transaction fee.

 

Since it's purely up to the card-issuing bank, your credit union in your case, whether they charge any foreign transaction fee or what related fees they also absorb it appears your credit union is not absorbing the MC transaction fee of 0.2%   On your next counter withdrawal see if  you come up 0.2% short again on the exchange rate.  And you might want to look at the written terms of agreement for your debit card to see if there is some weasel/vague working in their regarding foreign transactions. 

 

Below website does a pretty good job of talking some the foreign transaction fees you might incur with your card....it's talking credit cards but it applies to debit cards also.  Note the reference to the 0.2 to 1% MC transaction fee...I think this is the fee your CU is not absorbing which is effectively lowering the exchange rate by 0.2% resulting in a slightly higher charge hitting  your account.

 

Webpage that talks various foreign transaction fees 

https://blog.moneysmart.sg/credit-cards/credit-card-fees-you-probably-dont-know-youre-paying/

 

 

Snapshot 1: with a 0.2% fee the charge matches exactly hitting your CU account.

 

 

 

 

[jeffandgop]

19 minutes ago, Pib said:

OK, here's what I think happened since we can't get any exchange rate...the Bangkok Bank Note, Sight Bill, or TT rates...or the MC "full" rate to match the charge that hit your credit union account.

 

When you went to Bangkok Bank and asked for a $100 withdrawal versus say asking for a particular baht amount, what the bank rep first does is just use their Note rate to convert to a baht amount.  The bank is "not" using this Note rate as the actual exchange rate to be charged to your account; they are just using it to determine the baht amount to accomplish the transaction in. 

 

The transaction is then processed in baht and the card-network exchange rate (Visa or Mastercard depending on your card) minus any foreign transaction fee charged (or not absorbed) by your card-issuing bank.  And like we've discussed already the actual settlement date may be different from the actual transaction date but I found for a cash withdrawal it usually turns out to be the actual transaction date.  

 

Above I mentioned "....minus any foreign transaction (or not absorbed) by your card-issuing bank."    I think what is happening here is your card-issuing credit union is indeed not charging any foreign transaction fee, however, they are not absorbing the Mastercard "transaction fee" which can range for 0.2% to 1% depending on the currency and the contract they have with your credit union.   This transaction fee is not bill directly to you by MC/Visa but to your card-issuing bank; however, since it's linked to your card your card-issuing bank can just relay that fee to you instead of absorbing it....it dosn't show up as a separate line item charged...it's just integrated into the total amount/exchange rate used.

 

So, when your credit union told you "they" do not charge any additional foreign fee they are technically telling the truth but at the same time they are not absorbing all related card transaction fees which means their card is not a true no foreign transaction fee card like the Schwab debit card routinely talked about on ThaiVisa.  The Schwab debit does not charge any foreign transaction fee and it absorbs the card-network transaction fee....not to be confused with also rebating any ATM Use fee.

 

A story talking card-network transaction fee:  Several years back when Capital One acquired ING they also revamped their debit and credit card fee structures....CapOne debt cards use to be true no foreign transaction fee cards, but in their fee restructure they said they do not charge any foreign transaction fee however there may be some Visa/Mastercard card-network transaction fees.   It was bankster weasel/vague wording for saying there still may be a small currency conversion related fee by Mastercard/Visa that will be passed on to you in the form of a lower exchange rate.   At that time the MC transaction fee could range from 0.2 to 1% and Visa 0.15 to 1.05%....the specific amount depended on the contract they had with the card issuing bank.  I fully expect the MC/Visa transaction fee structure is still very, very similar.

 

Anyway, about this time there began to be quite a few posts on ThaiVisa by people with Cap1 debit cards who could never get the exchange rate to match any exchange rate....not Visa rate...not MC rate...not any Thai bank rate....etc.   They use to be able to get the exchange rate to match, but no longer could.  Other MC card holders from other card-issuing banks were getting the exact MC rate.  But Cap1 customers were coming up 0.2% short on the exchange rate. 

 

Just like you experienced with your latest counter withdrawal.  When you crank in a 0.2% fee in the MC exchange rate page you will then get the exact amount that hit your credit union account.  See snapshot 1 at the bottom.

 

And this actually become a bigger complaint with all Cap1 customers.  In response to the complaints  Cap1 began to also absorb the card-network transaction fee and turned their debit card back into a true no foreign transaction fee debit card by not adding an fee "and absorbing" the card-network transaction fee.   Like I did a Bt150K counter withdrawal on 3 Aug...got the MC exchange rate for 3 Aug...and charging hitting my bank account was $4,515.59 which matched exactly the MC exchange rate page....matched to the penny since the Cap1 MC debit card is now a true no foreign transaction fee card which also absorb the MC transaction fee.

 

Since it's purely up to the card-issuing bank, your credit union in your case, whether they charge any foreign transaction fee or what related fees they also absorb it appears your credit union is not absorbing the MC transaction fee of 0.2%   On your next counter withdrawal see if  you come up 0.2% short again on the exchange rate.  And you might want to look at the written terms of agreement for your debit card to see if there is some weasel/vague working in their regarding foreign transactions. 

 

Below website does a pretty good job of talking some the foreign transaction fees you might incur with your card....it's talking credit cards but it applies to debit cards also.  Note the reference to the 0.2 to 1% MC transaction fee...I think this is the fee your CU is not absorbing which is effectively lowering the exchange rate by 0.2% resulting in a slightly higher charge hitting  your account.

 

Webpage that talks various foreign transaction fees 

https://blog.moneysmart.sg/credit-cards/credit-card-fees-you-probably-dont-know-youre-paying/

 

 

Snapshot 1: with a 0.2% fee the charge matches exactly hitting your CU account.

 

 

 

 

I agree totally with your explanation. That explains the ever so slight difference in the final debit amount and the MC rate. I suspected that my credit union was charging me some transaction cost. Glad it’s so small. And still ends up for me financially an overall better deal than ACH or SWIFT transfers. 

[Pib]

Yeap, if a person has a no foreign transaction debit card it's hard to beat in terms of total baht in your pocket at least cost to you....better than Transferwise, Bangkok Bank ACH transfer, SWIFT, etc.  But the number of no foreign transaction debit cards are in the minority of cards.  A person may need to switch banking institutions to get such a card and for some people they just don't want to switch from a bank/CU they have been with for a long time.  OK, don't switch...stay with that bank but open up an account with another bank that offers a no foreign transaction....maybe one that reimburse ATM fee also.   

 

And a great way to greatly reduce the amount of money a person needs to transfer over is to get a no foreign transaction fee "credit card" and use it whenever you can.  I have several such Visa and Mastercard credit cards and the wife and I use anywhere we can....buying goods/groceries at Lotus, Big C, Tops, Foodland....buying fuel for the SUV....paying medical and dental bills...buying goods at stores like HomePro...buying furniture like a 22K baht sofa we had delivered just today for Index Living Mall.  And our cards pay 1.5% cash back also.  They are U.S. cards with much better consumer protection than Thai credit cards...it helps to maintain our credit report ratings....these cards probably reduce the amount of money we need to transfer to Thailand for day-to-day livings expenses by at least 75%.

 

So as we all try to figure out ways to reduce the costs of getting money into Thailand a way to do that is to figure out ways to reduce the need to even bring funds into Thailand like the use of credit cards I've just babbled about.

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

[PFV]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:08 PM, Pib said:

Yeap, if a person has a no foreign transaction debit card it's hard to beat in terms of total baht in your pocket at least cost to you....better than Transferwise, Bangkok Bank ACH transfer, SWIFT, etc.  But the number of no foreign transaction debit cards are in the minority of cards.  A person may need to switch banking institutions to get such a card and for some people they just don't want to switch from a bank/CU they have been with for a long time.  OK, don't switch...stay with that bank but open up an account with another bank that offers a no foreign transaction....maybe one that reimburse ATM fee also.   

 

And a great way to greatly reduce the amount of money a person needs to transfer over is to get a no foreign transaction fee "credit card" and use it whenever you can.  I have several such Visa and Mastercard credit cards and the wife and I use anywhere we can....buying goods/groceries at Lotus, Big C, Tops, Foodland....buying fuel for the SUV....paying medical and dental bills...buying goods at stores like HomePro...buying furniture like a 22K baht sofa we had delivered just today for Index Living Mall.  And our cards pay 1.5% cash back also.  They are U.S. cards with much better consumer protection than Thai credit cards...it helps to maintain our credit report ratings....these cards probably reduce the amount of money we need to transfer to Thailand for day-to-day livings expenses by at least 75%.

 

So as we all try to figure out ways to reduce the costs of getting money into Thailand a way to do that is to figure out ways to reduce the need to even bring funds into Thailand like the use of credit cards I've just babbled about.

 

Cheers.

Thank you Pib, you just described exactly what I have been doing for the past several years.

Both my Cap One and BK of America cards do not charge foreign transaction fees, and, at the end of the day, the exchange rates + costs are better than ACHing funds to BKK Bank New York; not to mention the "travel" points you caj use towards anything travel related, thus further improving the overall exchange rate. 

However, going to the bank and getting cash this way is not as convenient as an online ACH transfer to BKKBNK NY, so I am investigating alternatives. 

 

I looked into Transferwise, but their fees are too steep for anything but small amounts.

I called Fidelity Investments to ask them about International Wire Transfers, and was told that they do not charge anything at their end, provided the funds are sent in US$. The only fees are charged upon arrival by the receiving bank. I will verify this directly the next time I visit them in October, since it sounds too good to be true.

 

I was also thinking of experimenting with personal checks from my US Bank that I could deposit into my local BKKBNK account. BKKBNK told me that it takes a couple of months for checks to clear, since they need to be sent back to the issuing bank, but that incoming fees are very small.  Has anyone tried this method?

[Langsuan Man]

1 hour ago, PFV said:

I called Fidelity Investments to ask them about International Wire Transfers, and was told that they do not charge anything at their end, provided the funds are sent in US$. The only fees are charged upon arrival by the receiving bank. I will verify this directly the next time I visit them in October, since it sounds too good to be true.

It is true, I asked the same question and here is the answer I got back:

 

Quote

From:Fidelity

To:

Topic:Account services and features 

Subject:RE: International wire fee

Date:08/20/2018 9:30 AM

Dear Mr.

Thank you for choosing Fidelity Investments. I'm happy to offer my support on your international wire fee question.

The wire fee mentioned is for foreign wires where Fidelity processes the foreign currency conversion. The fee involved would ultimately depend on several factors, such as the currency and wire amount, and would be confirmed at the time of the wire.

For international wires in USD without Fidelity processing a currency conversion Fidelity does not charge a wire fee; however, the receiving firm may charge fees.

Please feel free to contact a representative with any additional questions.
 

But don't forget Fidelity requires a standing order for International wires and: A Medallion signature guarantee is required.