Less Western Expats arriving than ever before and a significant fall in working Western expats now in Thailand

[NightSky]

9 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

give  me a b,

1400 out of 100 000/200 000 is plenty enough for proper analysis

 

u can't know much about mathematics/statistics

 

 

As Jimster mentions, this is 1400 Thai Visa readers and not necessarily a true representation of all western expats in Thailand.

 

Of course you can analyse the 1400 although the point is this cohort is potentially biased in many ways. Yes you can ANALYZE the data but it doesn't mean anything other than provide an insight into the lives of some Thai Visa readers.

 

And.. why do you need to know anything about statistics? Its common sense man! 

 

[samran]

All this actually tells me is that Thai Visa has an aging demographic (surprise surprise!). The content posted here appeals mainly to, ahem, aged demographic, so don’t expect too many younguns to respond. 

 

[samran]

All this actually tells me is that Thai Visa has an aging demographic (surprise surprise!). The content posted here appeals mainly to, ahem, aged demographic, so don’t expect too many younguns to respond. 

 

[balo]

Also , many young people (and older) work as digital nomads these days , if you get a contract with one of the big international companies , you can travel and work from anywhere, Thailand is not that interesting anymore. 

 

[bkk6060]

I do not see how the Junta has anything to do with it.

 

I have been here before and after.  It seems actually there is more progress going on in general now. Much more infrastructure projects throughout the entire country.  GDP is up tourists coming like crazy.

 

I guess if one wants to totally leave a place because of some political opinions about the forced government, then go ahead.  It has not changed my life one bit with them in power in fact seems a little better from my view.

[Fex Bluse]

28 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I do not see how the Junta has anything to do with it.

 

I have been here before and after.  It seems actually there is more progress going on in general now. Much more infrastructure projects throughout the entire country.  GDP is up tourists coming like crazy.

 

I guess if one wants to totally leave a place because of some political opinions about the forced government, then go ahead.  It has not changed my life one bit with them in power in fact seems a little better from my view.

I agree on this point. As an expat who is reasonably well paid, Thailand's politics should have nearly no impact at all. Thai politics affect Thais disproportionately. How many of us actually give a d@#n who is running the country? And why? 

 

That said, there are some areas where goverment policy may impact true expats. Things like changes to the Board of Investment laws, changes to other business and ownership laws and changes to specialty visas like the SMART Visa scheme may have some impact. 

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, hawksway said:

The serious decline in the exchange rates of European Currencies (amounting to more than 20% in the value of the UK Pound) makes Thailand a much less affordable place to live although other Countries are a good deal more expensive - I wonder how many British ex Pats and Retirees voted their wealth down by failing to vote "Remain" in the Country's EU Referendum?

British expats were always a large part of the expat community.

Now the dead one are no longer being replaced and because of the sinking pound many of the undead will have to leave too.

Without a doubt Brexit has a hand in this...as with the decline in teachers required or even wanting to teach here

[Byron Allen Black]

On 8/2/2018 at 7:47 PM, Gecko123 said:

I feel like this survey reflects accurately what I've observed.

 

The hollowing out of the under 35 expat demographic probably can be explained by Thailand's war on foreign teachers without work permits, creeping rise in cost of living, and improving economies in the West. Suspect that many working aged expats who were paid in their home currency have found cost of living here has shot up and left as a result. Crackdown on beer bar scene has probably made Thailand less attractive to some as well. Still, expect that next downturn in the West will probably trigger a new wave of retirees and early retirees looking to stretch their pensions in Thailand. With the global homogenization of culture and mass tourism, worldwide tourism has simply lost a lot of its allure.

 

Survey also thoroughly debunks the myth that majority of expats over here are broke. Note rates of home ownership, car ownership, and monthly expenditures reported.

 

Also of interest was that while the majority of expats appear to be living in major metropolitan areas and popular seaside towns, a full third (32%) of respondents fall into an "all other" category, presumably many in smaller cities, towns and villages, i.e., rural Thailand, which, in my opinion, is under-rated as a place to live.

Good point. Every developing country I've lived in (Europa, East Asia & Latinoamerica) I've found that second-tier cities offer immense advantages in terms of friendly locals, less pressure all around, milder traffic, less alarm about crime and crowding, etc.

 

Barranquilla, Florianopolis, Zaragoza, Bandar Lampung, Da Lat, Yancheng - I've felt much more comfortable in smaller cities much more than in a megapolis. Easier to make friends as well. And as a foreigner you are "special" (the way it used to be in Thailand, tee hee).

 

I wouldn't want to live in an absolutely remote village for obvious reasons: no supermarket with imported food, reliable medical care, educated locals to jaw with - to visit maybe but not long-term.

 

And a note to the headline-writer: It is 'fewer Western Expats' NOT 'less Western Expats': count noun, not mass noun.

 

You're welcome, Sunshine.

 

(Sincerely,)

 

Der Grammar Obersturmbahnführer

[Byron Allen Black]

2 minutes ago, Byron Allen Black said:

Good point. Every developing country I've lived in (Europa, East Asia & Latinoamerica) I've found that second-tier cities offer immense advantages in terms of friendly locals, less pressure all around, milder traffic, less alarm about crime and crowding, etc.

 

Barranquilla, Florianopolis, Zaragoza, Bandar Lampung, Da Lat, Yancheng - I've felt much more comfortable in smaller cities much more than in a megapolis. Easier to make friends as well. And as a foreigner you are "special" (the way it used to be in Thailand, tee hee).

 

I wouldn't want to live in an absolutely remote village for obvious reasons: no supermarket with imported food, reliable medical care, educated locals to jaw with - to visit maybe but not long-term.

 

And a note to the headline-writer: It is 'fewer Western Expats' NOT 'less Western Expats': count noun, not mass noun.

 

You're welcome, Sunshine.

 

(Sincerely,)

 

Der Grammar Obersturmbahnführer

I forgot to mention Chantaburi, Mae Sot, Prachuab Khirikhan and best of all Kanchanaburi (wild west - cowboy country), all of which were lots of fun.

[THAIJAMES]

23 hours ago, webcrawler00 said:

I just wish all expats in Thailand who don't like Thailand will leave ASAP.   Why keep complaining and bad-mouthing your host country? Leave! I have been here for more than 3 years and I still enjoy Thailand very much. Some things I don't like but I don't let those things bother me. I'll live here for as long as I am enjoying Thailand and once I don't, then I will leave. A waste of my time to complain about Thailand but I still stay here!

I agree.  I have been here for than 30 years and I still enjoy Thailand.

The problem for most people is not outside.  It is in their head.

[Lacessit]

12 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Always a precursor for abstraction, unfortunately.

Good one. I try to keep active by learning Thai, although having the vocal range of a frog doesn't help with the tones. Plus managing my investments.

I must confess I do miss the hands-on aspect of the work I used to do. Can't play golf every day.

[BuckleUp]

23 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Rather than consider only that this sample is a fair reflection of the overall community.. Perhaps also consider that this is where younger expats are using different social media.. 

Forums like this are dated, younger expats are I would feel more likely to be engaged on facebook for information and instagram and twitter for news and sharing. 
 

Yes, but nothing beats a 90s style forum for good old fashioned trolling.

[spidermike007]

18 hours ago, jimster said:

True. I was interrogated once for going to Muse, a town in Shan State on the Chinese border which according to their Ministry of Hotels and Tourism website was open but the official there kept interrupting me and acted quite rude and belligerent, finally he let me stay with the proviso I'm not to cross into China (wasn't even intending on doing so) and that I must report back to him on the way back, which I did. Otherwise I quite like Myanmar, especially the south-east near the Thai border, but only because I like traditional cultures and lifestyles and (I can live without KFCs and McDonalds) and luckily most of eastern Myanmar has finally found peace. However, there is still a sense of tenseness in the air as the peace seems fragile. Religious tensions are rife, with many Buddhists refusing to live next to Muslims and vice versa. Despite opening up, it seems that Myanmar's progress has stalled in recent times; investors are deciding it's still too risky and tourist numbers are not increasing like during the initial spike from 2011 to 2014. There are still too many vestiges of the old military regime - until the checkpoints, the paranoia, the unpredictable violence in some areas and restricted areas disappear, traveling in many parts of the country will still be quite an unpleasant experience for many.

 

Cambodia seems similar to Thailand at first glance, but as you say crime is rampant, with Sihanoukville after dark being particularly dodgy while everything else is just a worse version of what you get in Thailand with the single exception of tourist restaurants and hotels in Siem Reap and Phnom Penh, which are decent.

I hear hotels in Burma need a special license to rent their rooms to outsiders. Now that is really dumb. I just would not trust myself while being interrogated by a highly ignorant butthead military or police fool. I think I would end up insulting his mother or his manhood and get locked up in a filthy jail. Would rather avoid putting myself in that suituation. Besides having been there twice, I feel like I have seen as much as I need to see. Too many other places to explore, that do not have such ignorant, blood thirsty, racist, nasty, insular governments or armies. No thanks. 

[tomacht8]

10 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

I think you were actually thinking about the GBP, because that is the only one that has really lost, and some have even improved exchange rates

 

Also the EURO had a loss over 5 years.
 

[Fex Bluse]

On 8/3/2018 at 9:41 AM, webcrawler00 said:

I just wish all expats in Thailand who don't like Thailand will leave ASAP.   Why keep complaining and bad-mouthing your host country? Leave! I have been here for more than 3 years and I still enjoy Thailand very much. Some things I don't like but I don't let those things bother me. I'll live here for as long as I am enjoying Thailand and once I don't, then I will leave. A waste of my time to complain about Thailand but I still stay here!

You do realize that if YOU also dislike complaining expats in real life or on this forum, YOU can extricate YOURSELF and leave the country or the forums? Or, a milder form, just avoid the topics or posts you dislike. 

 

Just making the point. I hope it's clear. 

[the guest]

Thailand is regarded as a hostile environment for most Westerners, since the ideology is not compatible. I for one decided to leave after almost 20 years, having lived in the country it was becoming clear that Thailand was becoming intolerable.

 

 

[Odysseus123]

9 minutes ago, Fex Bluse said:

You do realize that if YOU also dislike complaining expats in real life or on this forum, YOU can extricate YOURSELF and leave the country or the forums? Or, a milder form, just avoid the topics or posts you dislike. 

 

Just making the point. I hope it's clear. 

Yes-but it was a splendid rhodomontade,was it not?

 

Only said one million,four hundred thousand,five hundred and sixty seven posts (various posters) before...

 

So it is a near original-a Ronoir instead of a Renoir.

[skorchio]

Currency has a bit to do with this. How many old fart Brits have seen their monthly 1500 quid, on which they lived like a sexpat king, reduce their living standards to 711 beers only and haggling the price of motorbike taxis. 72 baht to the pound when I bought my first condo, now 42 baht. Thats a kick in the balls for anyone. Inflation in Thailand has not been stalled in the last 10 years as it has been in the Europe, Japan and the US.

[Kerryd]

19 hours ago, tropo said:

Languages evolve - deal with it.

 

19 hours ago, tropo said:

I disagree and I'm well aware of the rules. The sad thing is old people trying to hold onto rules that are ever changing... and now with the Internet, changes are happening at a rapid pace as different styles of English are being blended together. My prediction is "fewer" will be gone in one more generation. It is a totally unnecessary complication.

I agree and English is a prime example of a language that has evolved. Quite rapidly in fact.
 If anyone were to try and recite Shakespeare (1564-1616 AD) in the "Early Modern English" it was originally written in, people would have a hard time understanding it as the language has evolved considerably since his time.
"MACBETH
So is he mine; and in such bloody distance,
That every minute of his being thrusts
Against my near’st of life: and though I could
With barefaced power sweep him from my sight
And bid my will avouch it, yet I must not,"

And that is considerably easier to understand than the "Middle English" that preceded "Early Modern English".
From the Cantebury Tales written by Chaucer (1343-1400 AD):
"Ye goon to Canterbury—God yow speede, 

The blisful martir quite yow youre meede! 

And wel I woot, as ye goon by the weye, 

Ye shapen yow to talen and to pleye; 

For trewely confort ne myrthe is noon 

To ride by the weye doumb as a stoon; "

Quite a bit of difference in the little over 200 years that separates Chaucer from Shakespeare.

With the rapid advancement of technology and mass communication, the language is evolving even quicker than ever before. Every year dozens of new words (or more) are added to "English" dictionaries, words are being spelt differently, some words (like "spelt" and "amongst") have become archiac and many words have very different meanings now than they used to just a 100 years ago. 

However, I suspect that the evolution of the English language has little, if anything, to do with the declining numbers of expatriates residing in Thailand.

Just as I suspect that Thailand's laws have little to do with younger expatriates choosing other alternatives to Thailand. "New" people are not likely to move to Thailand and decide that "people who were here before had it better" and then move elsewhere. No moreso than they would be likely to change their plans because they found out that 10 years ago the exchange rates used to be more favourable to their national currency than it is now.

Those changes would be more likely to affect the "old" expatriates who've been here long enough to see the changes and feel their effects.

I think it has to do with Thailand simply not being on the "radar" when a lot of people make decisions about where they want to work or live. If they are not hearing about the wonders of the country, they are not likely to consider it as an option and may opt to pick destinations that are more familiar to them instead.

Proof in point - 10 year ago Thailand did not have as many Chinese and Indian tourists as it does now. Why is that ? Has the Rupee and Yuan dramatically increased in value compared to the baht in recent years (unlikely). Have the rules changed to make visiting and living here more attractive to people from those countries ? (Slightly, as far as Visas and length of stay are concerned however all the other rules that affect "Western" expats also affects Chinese and Indian expats, such as 90 Day reports and yearly renewals of Extensions.)

What really happened though was that the government and it's agencies made a major effort to attract tourists from those countries through promotions and incentives. Basically, they sold "Thailand" to the people in those countries and as a result, when those people are making travel plans, Thailand is "on" their radar while other destinations may no longer seem as attractive.
I suspect, as I have mentioned in a number of posts, that Thailand has not made that same effort to sell itself in the "Western" countries and that is why there appears to be a decline in the overall numbers of expatriates being here now.

All it takes is to offer some incentives to various travel agencies to make sure that Thailand travel brochures are prominently display and the destination "pushed" as an option, along with some nice colourful ads in the media (i.e. of sun drenched beaches with fun on the water type of pictures, advertised while the target country is in the middle of yet another bleary, cold winter) and suddenly Thailand is "on the radar". Add in some cheap seat deals with local airlines and a few special promotions and suddenly planeloads of people are opting for Thailand instead of Greece or Australia or Spain.

Meanwhile, in "Western" countries, when people are thinking about holiday destinations they may be seeing ads and promotions for places like Bali or the Maldives or Greece or Egypt and barely anything (or maybe nothing at all) about Thailand. Hard to make travel plans to a place you've never even heard of. 

As for people working here, I expect that there are some who were "sent" here by their companies and some who arrived here and found employment afterwards (or created their own employment). The "younger" expats that don't seem to be coming to Thailand are probably doing the same thing, just in other countries. Ones that may have put more effort into promoting themselves in order to attract that younger generation.

 
And has been mentioned previously in this thread, perhaps the "newer" expats that are here now (in Thailand) simply haven't participated in the survey or even know about ThaiVisa and maybe the "older" expats couldn't be bothered to respond to it. I know a few expats that live in Thailand or visit very frequently that have never heard about ThaiVisa at all.

I also know a few that just don't visit the forums anymore, for one reason or another.

One question to ask perhaps - was the "Survey" mentioned in the Nation ? As a content partner with ThaiVisa, if the Survey was mentioned on their site and on their media (TV and Print), it may reach a wider audience.
(Unless of course it was mentioned and the results are just bad !)
 

 

[mommysboy]

For the Brit expat in Thailand, I would say everything you wanted to go up has gone down, and vice-versa. Add in a few annoyances, like the changing moral climate, then Thailand isn't such a great place anymore.

[suzannegoh]

For the Brit expat in Thailand, I would say everything you wanted to go up has gone down, and vice-versa. Add in a few annoyances, like the changing moral climate, then Thailand isn't such a great place anymore.

That's a good point. Thailand has better infrastructure now, its people are more educated, fewer are living in poverty, and its currency has strengthened. That's a bad combination for sexpats.  

 

 

[DrTuner]

6 hours ago, Fex Bluse said:

As an expat who is reasonably well paid, Thailand's politics should have nearly no impact at all. Thai politics affect Thais disproportionately. How many of us actually give a d@#n who is running the country? And why? 

It takes a head in the sand mindset to ignore what's going around completely. Not every one is made to look the other way. Might be easier if you don't have any Thai family members, but over time the moron usurpurs start to get under your skin. 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Fex Bluse said:

You do realize that if YOU also dislike complaining expats in real life or on this forum, YOU can extricate YOURSELF and leave the country or the forums? Or, a milder form, just avoid the topics or posts you dislike. 

 

Just making the point. I hope it's clear. 

It's rather sad when someone resorts to that sort of old cliche when they have run out of arguments.....even sadder when you see how often and how very old that cliche is.

[Kerryd]

Some people seem to be under the misconception that: 
A) all expats are from UK, and
B) they could all live happily back in the UK on their pensions but may have to leave Thailand because the exchange rate to the GBP has gone down.

 

Well, not all expats are from the UK. 

 

And seriously, people actually think that expats (from the UK) are leaving because they can't afford to live in Thailand anymore, but can somehow afford to live in the UK where I'm sure the cost of living is considerably higher than it is in Thailand ?
I seriously doubt that.

The people that are griping are the ones who can barely afford to live here and know that going "home" would be even worse. I'm guessing that more than a few are struggling to get by on pensions of 400 GBP or less (just over 17,000 Baht at today's rates). When the rate was around 54 baht to the Pound that same 400 GBP would have been worth just over 21,000 baht.
Yes, when you are living on the sharp edge of a knife, 4,000 baht a month can make a huge difference, but back in the UK, 400 GBP will still be 400 GBP and the cost of living rarely ever goes down.

 

But I doubt that someone's quality of life would be that much better living in the UK on the same amount of money.

Having a quick glance at some "Cost of Living" indices and I find these numbers:
 

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in Thailand are 33.02% lower than in United Kingdom
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Thailand are 36.58% lower than in United Kingdom
Rent Prices in Thailand are 45.10% lower than in United Kingdom
Restaurant Prices in Thailand are 67.95% lower than in United Kingdom
Groceries Prices in Thailand are 10.87% lower than in United Kingdom
Local Purchasing Power in Thailand is 61.32% lower than in United Kingdom

On another site, they compare the cost of living vs the average wages to determine the cost of living compared to the USA. The UK comes in at 102.2 on the index, meaning it is about 2.2% more expensive to live in the UK than it is in the USA.
Thailand comes in at 54, meaning it is about 46% cheaper to live in Thailand than the USA which, of course, means it is even cheaper than the UK.

Another site compares average prices for different things like clothing, entertainment, housing, transportation and so on, using data submitted by expats living in the target cities. Using their site, they calculate that living in London would be 91% more expensive than living in Bangkok.
 

Cost of living in London, United Kingdom compared toBangkok, Thailand

How much money will you need in London? 
Find out with your own Salary Calculation.

 

TOTAL				+ 91%
Food				+ 42%
Housing				+ 163%
Clothes				- 16%
Transportation				+ 100%
Personal Care				+ 86%
Entertainment				+ 68%

These prices were last updated 44 minutes ago. Exchange rate: 43.387 THB / GBP

This comparison is based on abundant and consistent data. It is based on 6,828 prices entered by 1,492 different people.

Do you live in Bangkok?We need your help!

 

What is the price of

Internet connection 300 Mbps

in Bangkok?

1 month

 ฿

or you can also improve all the other prices in Bangkok

or you can even improve all the prices in London

Cost of living inLondon (United Kingdom) is 91% more expensive thanin Bangkok (Thailand)

I'm a little suspicion of their calculations though as I don't see how it is cheaper to buy clothes in the UK than it is in Thailand.

However, even with a massive change in the prices it seems pretty obvious that living in the UK would be considerably more expensive than in Thailand, without most of the benefits of living here (like the weather and the cute girls serving you your weekly small glass of draft Chang and treating you like the hansum man you always knew you were) !


 

[DrTuner]

Also, I'd like to think that the dire warnings from TVF members are doing their trick. These posts always come on top in google searches. Advice to potential newcomers: just find another place and stop supporting the military junta. Steer clear of Thailand.

[stanleycoin]

10 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Also, I'd like to think that the dire warnings from TVF members are doing their trick. These posts always come on top in google searches. Advice to potential newcomers: just find another place and stop supporting the military junta. Steer clear of Thailand.

Nah, it's still a laugh for now. well for me anyway

despite some of the Bs that goes on here around us all. 

[BritManToo]

19 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

guessing that more than a few are struggling to get by on pensions of 400 GBP

UK state pension is 150 pounds/week (650 pounds/month) or 28,000bht/month (@43bht/pound).

(about twice what I need to live here)

[AdamTheFarang]

Some do not like the Russians, some do not like the Chinese, the latter have taken over the tourist scene from the shopping centres to the snorkelling boats, just observe how many airlines with Chinese names I have never heard of arriving at Phuket even in the middle of the night, many places turning into too commercialised concrete messes, roads with crazy transit vans, roads with large black belching smoke full of Chinese, being caught in a 7/11 when a coach of Chinese arrive and having to wait in the queue to pay without earplugs in my ears, forever changing visa rules and I mean these change so often, more expensive fuelled by higher Baht,  expensive dive trips, too many Thais that think they know it all until you ask them where a country is clearly geography is high on their education system, many tourist spots used to be high end European destinations now they are low end Asian destinations and the two do not mix, what couple spending 15,000Baht a night want to walk outside their hotel and see Chinese spitting on the floor and shouting. Can't talk about the bars but driving past they seem very quiet the girls now with their faces on their new smart phone, Facebook etc than getting a punter how is that going to help their 1 year old in a farm in Isarn their relationship with their mother must be under stress, of course their are lower cost, more visa friendly Asian countries with great beaches, Temples there people more welcoming and less xenophobic just the fact that Thai use one word farang to class all foreigners says volumes. Again I am done with Thailand. Thank you and watch out in the country with the highest death rates in the world. Compare Thai New Year death rates to Western New Year death rates.......sobering......I forgot one last thing if you have an accident is a car it is always the foreigners fault eg you are parked and a Thai goes into your rear.......his reply might be "I would not have had an accident if you were not parked there" Version 2.0 of one more last thing the Thais lack of taking responsibility. 

[AdamTheFarang]

11 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

UK state pension is 150 pounds/week (650 pounds/month) or 28,000bht/month (@43bht/pound).

(about twice what I need to live here)

Where do you live in a cave and eat coconuts?

[BritManToo]

21 minutes ago, AdamTheFarang said:

Where do you live in a cave and eat coconuts?

I live in a fairly new 3 bedroom detached house 10Km from Chiang Mai in a gated community.

My mortgage repayments are 11k/month, utils and internet 2k5. Leaving me 15k5/month for food and drink.

Splashed out on breakfast in town with a pal today, 65bht for scrambled egg, bacon, toast, banana and a hot Latte

(Nana Cafe Santhitham breakfast #1).

I might walk round for a swim in the pool (next soi) this afternoon, 20bht, then I'll buy 3x wine coolers in the 'mom & pop' store on the way back (3x 30bht).

 

I don't know, how do all you retired guys spend so much money in a month?