Less Western Expats arriving than ever before and a significant fall in working Western expats now in Thailand

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

For the older UK expat the single most important factirthing is healthcarea............ you seem to ignore that completely.

Quite a lot of older people don't have chronic health problems, try getting out, losing some weight and exercising a bit more.

Elderly, inactive and overweight is always going to cause you problems.

[LivinLOS]

19 hours ago, AdamTheFarang said:

67 is not old my Mum come from the UK to Australia at 76 and travelled around!

 

My mother is a very 'old' 67.. I agree it shouldnt be, my father has just had a daughter at the equivalent age.. But she is. A mild stroke last year didnt help. 

[kwilco]

22 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Some people seem to be under the misconception that: 
A) all expats are from UK, and
B) they could all live happily back in the UK on their pensions but may have to leave Thailand because the exchange rate to the GBP has gone down.

 

Well, not all expats are from the UK. 

 

And seriously, people actually think that expats (from the UK) are leaving because they can't afford to live in Thailand anymore, but can somehow afford to live in the UK where I'm sure the cost of living is considerably higher than it is in Thailand ?
I seriously doubt that.

The people that are griping are the ones who can barely afford to live here and know that going "home" would be even worse. I'm guessing that more than a few are struggling to get by on pensions of 400 GBP or less (just over 17,000 Baht at today's rates). When the rate was around 54 baht to the Pound that same 400 GBP would have been worth just over 21,000 baht.
Yes, when you are living on the sharp edge of a knife, 4,000 baht a month can make a huge difference, but back in the UK, 400 GBP will still be 400 GBP and the cost of living rarely ever goes down.

 

But I doubt that someone's quality of life would be that much better living in the UK on the same amount of money.

Having a quick glance at some "Cost of Living" indices and I find these numbers:
 

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in Thailand are 33.02% lower than in United Kingdom
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Thailand are 36.58% lower than in United Kingdom
Rent Prices in Thailand are 45.10% lower than in United Kingdom
Restaurant Prices in Thailand are 67.95% lower than in United Kingdom
Groceries Prices in Thailand are 10.87% lower than in United Kingdom
Local Purchasing Power in Thailand is 61.32% lower than in United Kingdom

On another site, they compare the cost of living vs the average wages to determine the cost of living compared to the USA. The UK comes in at 102.2 on the index, meaning it is about 2.2% more expensive to live in the UK than it is in the USA.
Thailand comes in at 54, meaning it is about 46% cheaper to live in Thailand than the USA which, of course, means it is even cheaper than the UK.

Another site compares average prices for different things like clothing, entertainment, housing, transportation and so on, using data submitted by expats living in the target cities. Using their site, they calculate that living in London would be 91% more expensive than living in Bangkok.
 

Cost of living in London, United Kingdom compared toBangkok, Thailand

How much money will you need in London? 
Find out with your own Salary Calculation.

 

TOTAL				+ 91%
Food				+ 42%
Housing				+ 163%
Clothes				- 16%
Transportation				+ 100%
Personal Care				+ 86%
Entertainment				+ 68%

These prices were last updated 44 minutes ago. Exchange rate: 43.387 THB / GBP

This comparison is based on abundant and consistent data. It is based on 6,828 prices entered by 1,492 different people.

Do you live in Bangkok?We need your help!

 

What is the price of

Internet connection 300 Mbps

in Bangkok?

1 month

 ฿

 

or you can also improve all the other prices in Bangkok

or you can even improve all the prices in London

Cost of living inLondon (United Kingdom) is 91% more expensive thanin Bangkok (Thailand)

I'm a little suspicion of their calculations though as I don't see how it is cheaper to buy clothes in the UK than it is in Thailand.

However, even with a massive change in the prices it seems pretty obvious that living in the UK would be considerably more expensive than in Thailand, without most of the benefits of living here (like the weather and the cute girls serving you your weekly small glass of draft Chang and treating you like the hansum man you always knew you were) !


 

For the older UK expat the single most important factirthing is healthcarea............ you seem to ignore that completely.

[kwilco]

17 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Quite a lot of older people don't have chronic health problems, try getting out, losing some weight and exercising a bit more.

Elderly, inactive and overweight is always going to cause you problems.

Statistically the elderly require increasing aonts of healthcare as they live longer - and in Thailand that is expensive and second rate.

[moontang]

5 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

As lack of adequate pensions and funds seems to be a Brit obsession.

I guess every place has them. ?

 

might be worth mentioning the 7 million people in the UK, who buy private health insurance, too.  

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

all the world is changing.   and no more so than WE are changing.   Getting older presents challenges,

ain't fun i'm afraid.   As in anything, some adapt better than others.   There is still some beauty....

And still some old guys who don't give a sh-t

[rumak]

29 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Statistically the elderly require increasing aonts of healthcare as they live longer - and in Thailand that is expensive and second rate.

statistically speaking,  90% of the westerners living in Thailand don't know what they are talking about.

 

actually,  if you live in fear...or have serious health issues....Your home country is probably best if they

have health care.   Hopefully you will have a place to live there ?   

personally, i am very happy with my first rate dental services, such as cleanings for 500 baht, fillings around 600 baht.   does UK health cover that?  i can assure you US does not

[rumak]

4 minutes ago, overherebc said:

And still some old guys who don't give a sh-t

ride on, brother !

[rumak]

Not the first time i posted this....but.... I never bought into the health insurance BS.  Took pretty good care

of myself and estimate that i saved close to 2 million baht in yearly premiums that go up every year and

have lawyers ready to tell you why they won't pay.

Yes, I DO have that money tucked away and will not have to fill out a ton of forms and worry that some

office is going to deny my claim.  

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, rumak said:

Not the first time i posted this....but.... I never bought into the health insurance BS.  Took pretty good care

of myself and estimate that i saved close to 2 million baht in yearly premiums that go up every year and

have lawyers ready to tell you why they won't pay.

Yes, I DO have that money tucked away and will not have to fill out a ton of forms and worry that some

office is going to deny my claim.  

Bully for you...

[rumak]

10 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Bully for you...

thank you .   probably you were offended that i said that i saved that money.  only mentioned it because some nice guy previously challenged me about that fact. Wouldn't have been you, of course.

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, rumak said:

thank you

That's okay.

 

 

[Kerryd]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

For the older UK expat the single most important factirthing is healthcarea............ you seem to ignore that completely.

So much so that you had to repost that twice.

Apparently you are under the delusional impression that I created all those indices and figures personally and then decided to deliberately ignore ONE thing.

Well, allow me to dispel that delusion for you. I did not create those indices. They appear to have been created by people that do those things for a living. Go bitch at them for not including "healthcare" in their estimations.
Also, "healthcare" would probably fall under "Personal Care" on the last index and probably compares the cost of BUYING healthcare in Thailand as compared to the UK (for the equivalent coverage).
(As opposed to getting it for free(ish) from the NHS.)

And once again, not - every - expat - is - a - Brit. If "older" Brits are leaving Thailand because of "healthcare", I highly doubt their numbers are so great that it would even register.

Of course, the people that make up the stats have no actual idea about why there are fewer "older" or "working" expats in the country or why there are fewer (not "less"  ? ) arriving. It's not like they have a survey and make people answer why they are leaving the country. All they can do is note that there appears to be fewer expats than before.
Maybe there are fewer German expats in Thailand now than in the past but it could be for very different reasons than why there may be fewer Norwegian expats than before. There could be more Canadian expats now than ones from Finland but combined they probably represent a smaller change in the overall numbers than the number of French expats that may (or may not) be here anymore.
The same goes for the number of "younger" expats (as opposed to regular tourists) arriving. If it appears that fewer are arriving than in years past, they don't really have anyway of determining why (unless of course they already know why, for the reasons I've mentioned a couple times in this thread already).
 

[Odysseus123]

4 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

So much so that you had to repost that twice.

Apparently you are under the delusional impression that I created all those indices and figures personally and then decided to deliberately ignore ONE thing.

Well, allow me to dispel that delusion for you. I did not create those indices. They appear to have been created by people that do those things for a living. Go bitch at them for not including "healthcare" in their estimations.
Also, "healthcare" would probably fall under "Personal Care" on the last index and probably compares the cost of BUYING healthcare in Thailand as compared to the UK (for the equivalent coverage).
(As opposed to getting it for free(ish) from the NHS.)

And once again, not - every - expat - is - a - Brit. If "older" Brits are leaving Thailand because of "healthcare", I highly doubt their numbers are so great that it would even register.

Of course, the people that make up the stats have no actual idea about why there are fewer "older" or "working" expats in the country or why there are fewer (not "less"  ? ) arriving. It's not like they have a survey and make people answer why they are leaving the country. All they can do is note that there appears to be fewer expats than before.
Maybe there are fewer German expats in Thailand now than in the past but it could be for very different reasons than why there may be fewer Norwegian expats than before. There could be more Canadian expats now than ones from Finland but combined they probably represent a smaller change in the overall numbers than the number of French expats that may (or may not) be here anymore.
The same goes for the number of "younger" expats (as opposed to regular tourists) arriving. If it appears that fewer are arriving than in years past, they don't really have anyway of determining why (unless of course they already know why, for the reasons I've mentioned a couple times in this thread already).
 

Personal observation.

 

Where I lived the domiciled "foreigners"dropped to about 1/3 of the people I met in 2009.

 

I used to call their empty houses-"farang tombstones"

 

[tropo]

10 hours ago, fusion58 said:

"Less promising results."

 

"Fewer promising results."

 

Two different phrases with two different meanings, i.e., not interchangeable; ergo, not a "stylistic choice."

Good point. I should have found a better example, as there are many. You've actually made a case for "fewer" to stick around for a few more years.

[greenchair]

It would be interesting to know how many of those were tutors or English language teachers?

While the Thai teachers salary has increased from 10000 a month to 40000 a month or more. 

Foreign language teachers salary has gone down from 50 to 60000 a month, to 30 to 40000 per month. 

 

Thai tutors fee is around 500 hundred baht an hour. 

While foreign tutors fee has remained between 500 to 700 baht for the last 20 years. 

40000 a month is about 1,800 dollars a month nz.

About 360 dollars a week. 

In nz the lowest salary for working at a supermarket is around 600 dollars a week. And they don't have to pay airfares and calls home. 

[WinterGael]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:22 PM, Kerryd said:

 

I agree and English is a prime example of a language that has evolved. Quite rapidly in fact.
 If anyone were to try and recite Shakespeare (1564-1616 AD) in the "Early Modern English" it was originally written in, people would have a hard time understanding it as the language has evolved considerably since his time.
"MACBETH
So is he mine; and in such bloody distance,
That every minute of his being thrusts
Against my near’st of life: and though I could
With barefaced power sweep him from my sight
And bid my will avouch it, yet I must not,"

And that is considerably easier to understand than the "Middle English" that preceded "Early Modern English".
From the Cantebury Tales written by Chaucer (1343-1400 AD):
"Ye goon to Canterbury—God yow speede, 

The blisful martir quite yow youre meede! 

And wel I woot, as ye goon by the weye, 

Ye shapen yow to talen and to pleye; 

For trewely confort ne myrthe is noon 

To ride by the weye doumb as a stoon; "

Quite a bit of difference in the little over 200 years that separates Chaucer from Shakespeare.

With the rapid advancement of technology and mass communication, the language is evolving even quicker than ever before. Every year dozens of new words (or more) are added to "English" dictionaries, words are being spelt differently, some words (like "spelt" and "amongst") have become archiac and many words have very different meanings now than they used to just a 100 years ago. 

However, I suspect that the evolution of the English language has little, if anything, to do with the declining numbers of expatriates residing in Thailand.

Just as I suspect that Thailand's laws have little to do with younger expatriates choosing other alternatives to Thailand. "New" people are not likely to move to Thailand and decide that "people who were here before had it better" and then move elsewhere. No moreso than they would be likely to change their plans because they found out that 10 years ago the exchange rates used to be more favourable to their national currency than it is now.

Those changes would be more likely to affect the "old" expatriates who've been here long enough to see the changes and feel their effects.

I think it has to do with Thailand simply not being on the "radar" when a lot of people make decisions about where they want to work or live. If they are not hearing about the wonders of the country, they are not likely to consider it as an option and may opt to pick destinations that are more familiar to them instead.

Proof in point - 10 year ago Thailand did not have as many Chinese and Indian tourists as it does now. Why is that ? Has the Rupee and Yuan dramatically increased in value compared to the baht in recent years (unlikely). Have the rules changed to make visiting and living here more attractive to people from those countries ? (Slightly, as far as Visas and length of stay are concerned however all the other rules that affect "Western" expats also affects Chinese and Indian expats, such as 90 Day reports and yearly renewals of Extensions.)

What really happened though was that the government and it's agencies made a major effort to attract tourists from those countries through promotions and incentives. Basically, they sold "Thailand" to the people in those countries and as a result, when those people are making travel plans, Thailand is "on" their radar while other destinations may no longer seem as attractive.
I suspect, as I have mentioned in a number of posts, that Thailand has not made that same effort to sell itself in the "Western" countries and that is why there appears to be a decline in the overall numbers of expatriates being here now.

All it takes is to offer some incentives to various travel agencies to make sure that Thailand travel brochures are prominently display and the destination "pushed" as an option, along with some nice colourful ads in the media (i.e. of sun drenched beaches with fun on the water type of pictures, advertised while the target country is in the middle of yet another bleary, cold winter) and suddenly Thailand is "on the radar". Add in some cheap seat deals with local airlines and a few special promotions and suddenly planeloads of people are opting for Thailand instead of Greece or Australia or Spain.

Meanwhile, in "Western" countries, when people are thinking about holiday destinations they may be seeing ads and promotions for places like Bali or the Maldives or Greece or Egypt and barely anything (or maybe nothing at all) about Thailand. Hard to make travel plans to a place you've never even heard of. 

As for people working here, I expect that there are some who were "sent" here by their companies and some who arrived here and found employment afterwards (or created their own employment). The "younger" expats that don't seem to be coming to Thailand are probably doing the same thing, just in other countries. Ones that may have put more effort into promoting themselves in order to attract that younger generation.

 
And has been mentioned previously in this thread, perhaps the "newer" expats that are here now (in Thailand) simply haven't participated in the survey or even know about ThaiVisa and maybe the "older" expats couldn't be bothered to respond to it. I know a few expats that live in Thailand or visit very frequently that have never heard about ThaiVisa at all.

I also know a few that just don't visit the forums anymore, for one reason or another.

One question to ask perhaps - was the "Survey" mentioned in the Nation ? As a content partner with ThaiVisa, if the Survey was mentioned on their site and on their media (TV and Print), it may reach a wider audience.
(Unless of course it was mentioned and the results are just bad !)
 

 

You do make a lot of good points, but I think you are a little off on some assertions. Thailand as a tourist destination is still very well publicised in Canada, yet this is a common complaint I hear from friends in family with regard to coming to Thailand again. Its becoming too expensive, its not as friendly as it used to be, too many tourists now. But its also true that the Thai government is catering to the Chinese, primarily because the Chinese have a lot of spending power now, more so than your average westerner. That said, a lot of my friends and family are heading to cheaper destinations in southeast Asia. Also, most have been here once or twice already, and now are looking for other destinations. And this is something to think about, perhaps more so by the Thai government. My niece and her husband have been her multiple times, yet have no plans of coming back. They say that in the last 12 years they have seen Thailand change too much and don't like the changes. I think many on here can relate to that. I missed the "good old days," so don't know about the changes, but it seems many back in Canada do. My mother asked why I would want to live in a country like this? It seems that everyone my mom has talked to that has been here has not recommended it as a tourist destination, let alone a place to live. That is a huge change from years ago, and I think it's that form of first hand accounts of modern Thailand from expats and tourists that is causing the drop in western presence in the country. 

[jimster]

9 minutes ago, WinterGael said:

You do make a lot of good points, but I think you are a little off on some assertions. Thailand as a tourist destination is still very well publicised in Canada, yet this is a common complaint I hear from friends in family with regard to coming to Thailand again. Its becoming too expensive, its not as friendly as it used to be, too many tourists now. But its also true that the Thai government is catering to the Chinese, primarily because the Chinese have a lot of spending power now, more so than your average westerner. That said, a lot of my friends and family are heading to cheaper destinations in southeast Asia. Also, most have been here once or twice already, and now are looking for other destinations. And this is something to think about, perhaps more so by the Thai government. My niece and her husband have been her multiple times, yet have no plans of coming back. They say that in the last 12 years they have seen Thailand change too much and don't like the changes. I think many on here can relate to that. I missed the "good old days," so don't know about the changes, but it seems many back in Canada do. My mother asked why I would want to live in a country like this? It seems that everyone my mom has talked to that has been here has not recommended it as a tourist destination, let alone a place to live. That is a huge change from years ago, and I think it's that form of first hand accounts of modern Thailand from expats and tourists that is causing the drop in western presence in the country.  

The Chinese are also going to these other destinations and are being courted by those governments. Chinese are arriving in massive numbers in Bali, Indonesia and may one day start to eclipse the Aussie arrivals. They are also flooding into Hong Kong (yes, technically a part of China, but managed almost as a separate country), Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, Vietnam (despite the not so good government to government relations), Laos and Cambodia. The only difference is there are fewer Chinese tourists (and foreign arrivals overall) into these countries as compared to Thailand.

 

Maybe some people don't like the changes they perceive happening in Thailand, but I don't think they're unique to this country. Someone who knows Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam etc. well will have similar things to say. And as someone who knows these countries well, it's not at all rosy in any of these places either. Some people just like bashing Thailand and then pretending that neighboring countries are vastly different when they are almost exactly the same in many ways.

 

I'm pretty sure there are a multitude of factors relating to why it appears that western tourists aren't coming to Thailand as much anymore. However, according to official statistics there are more westerners coming here than in decades past. The main difference is there is no longer the monopoly from westerners that you used to have - back in the 80s the whole world was poor except the west and Japan, hence why people from these countries could holiday in Thailand when no one else could afford to. Now the west is not doing so well economically anymore and westerners don't have the spending power of the past. In fact, virtually every single westerner I know who is living in, or has been to Thailand is NOT a free spending tourist that drops money like it's water but is, or appears to be on a rather restricted budget. They are not staying at 5 star hotels, but rather in 1000 Baht a night places. Cheap hostels are full of western backpackers, while 5-star hotels have Chinese, Japanese, other Asian, Arab and only the occasional western guests.

 

Too many Chinese tourists, pollution, concerns about getting ripped off and just wanting to see something new are also factors, but economic factors are probably the single most significant reason why westerners are not coming to Thailand as much anymore (if that's to be believed). I can still see plenty of western tourists in Khao San road, the islands, Chiang Mai, the airports, even in shopping malls like Paragon and MBK. Just that now Arabs, Chinese, Indians, Russians are coming in even bigger numbers...

[rumak]

Less Western Expats arriving than ever before...........     just in case anyone forgot the original topic.

 

But,  not complaining.   Tourism is fair game too....

 

Waiting for headline:   Confrontational TV  Experts leaving Thailand in droves .

[bkk6060]

1 minute ago, rumak said:

Less Western Expats arriving than ever before...........     just in case anyone forgot the original topic.

 

But,  not complaining.   Tourism is fair game too....

 

Waiting for headline:   Confrontational TV  Experts leaving Thailand in droves .

I think in reality there are many on TV who are not here.  And, probably have never been.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, WinterGael said:

My mother asked why I would want to live in a country like this?

(Shhhhhh ........... Don't mention the hookers!)

[Odysseus123]

3 hours ago, rumak said:

thank you .   probably you were offended that i said that i saved that money.  only mentioned it because some nice guy previously challenged me about that fact. Wouldn't have been you, of course.

Nope,it wasn't me as I wouldn't give a flying dragon as to how much money you have saved...spent..or spend...

 

I go with JP Morgan's mordant observation.

 

In modern parlance..

 

"If you have to post about your wealth on the internet it probably means that you are sitting in a squalid bed sit in Pattaya.."

[rumak]

31 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Nope,it wasn't me as I wouldn't give a flying dragon as to how much money you have saved...spent..or spend...

 

I go with JP Morgan's mordant observation.

 

In modern parlance..

 

"If you have to post about your wealth on the internet it probably means that you are sitting in a squalid bed sit in Pattaya.."

and in true JP  Morgan fashion i will reply 

I don't give a flying dragon if you like my posts or not

If you have to try to knock people down.....probably means that you are the one in Pattaya.

Sure ain't me...

now can we move on......... 

[Odysseus123]

Just now, rumak said:

and in true JP  Morgan fashion i will reply 

I don't give a flying dragon if you like my posts or not

If you have to try to knock people down.....probably means that you are the one in Pattaya.

Sure ain't me...

Sure.

 

And I neither "like" nor "dislike" your posts-strictly neutral

 

I replied to your "reply"-and have not marked them so.

 

 

[rumak]

1 minute ago, Odysseus123 said:

Sure.

 

And I neither "like" nor "dislike" your posts-strictly neutral

 

I replied to your "reply"-and have not marked them so.

 

 

OK....moving on.   oh,  thanks for not calling me DUDE   

[Odysseus123]

4 minutes ago, rumak said:

OK....moving on.   oh,  thanks for not calling me DUDE   

I agree..pax..

 

Who the hell is DUDE??

 

Have a good evening.?

[Walter Travolta]

On 8/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, suzannegoh said:

It's ironic that over about the last 8 years that the dollar has held up better against the baht than most other currencies. It's been up or down about 10% from the present rate over that period of time but now is just about where it was at at the end of 2009.

 

Yes The US and other western countries have not had Brexit to deal with so their economy has stayed on a decent plateau but the longevity that Brexit has taken (over 2 blooming years now) has condemned tourists from the UK going ANYWHERE abroad will be hit because of the uncertainty. That uncertainty is still with us and even when Brexit is finally applied, the exchange rate will still take time to recover due to the fact that we in the UK will need to strenghthen our economy by making trade deals with the world. 

 

Immediately after the referendum went in favour of Brexit and the exchange rate dropped, a friend of mine said it would be like that for about a year. I said "Nooo way, we will leave the EU and make deals and get cracking. Thats what being a Brit is all about" - How wrong I was!! But to be fair to myself, I wasnt aware of the snowflake brigade's attempt to enter the Guiness book of world records for the longest tantrum in history ?
It's now over 2 years and we are hardly closer to anything at all so maybe the best outcome is no deal? After all, it seems Junker and Barnier want their cake and eat it. The problem I have with this is that they are both unelected thieves taking what they can before everyone realises what the EU (formerly the EEC) is all about. I just wish people would wake up to the corrupt people in it who want a USE (United States of Europe) so that people are easier to control under 1 umbrella. That is what they are all about. Greed and control

[The manic]

On 8/2/2018 at 10:34 AM, 3NUMBAS said:

stickman led the exodus and we all know why ..thai forums have less and less posters nowadays

Why did Rickman leave

[janclaes47]

13 minutes ago, The manic said:

Why did Rickman leave

For the same reason as some Swedish gentleman cashed in lol

[jenny2017]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:57 AM, BritManToo said:

You've never been to Cambodia or Vietnam then.

Sex. The oldest occupation on this planet since a guy started walking on water and made water to wine.-?️