UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

never mind, I'll offer an example (I do not think that what you say holds water in all cases)

 

EEA flagged commercial ships

in international trade

having GMDSS radiocommunication equipment

 

these equipment pieces are subject to national (flag state) approval

and must be marked accordingly (in addition to the CE mark)

and yes, this is enforced

any such ship (in a port state control) without the proper markings on

this life/death  radiocommunication equipment will quite simply be detained

until proper equipment pieces are found and installed

 

This document 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32008D0768&from=EN

covers the requirements for goods being sold and used within the "Community", it does not cover the "Community" and elsewhere.

 

You are perfectly free to share your knowledge on goods being used internationally.

[sandyf]

UK democracy in action - is this really what people voted for.

 

Most of Theresa May's cabinet ministers now support a Canada-style free trade agreement with the EU, according to reports.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cabinet-support-canada-deal-eu-theresa-may-chequers-a8551721.html

 

Brexit secretary Dominic Raab has risked a row with Conservative rebels after saying the idea of a Canada-style trade deal is “off the table”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-brexit-canada-eu-off-the-table-andrew-marr-a8551026.html

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

UK democracy in action - is this really what people voted for.

People only voted to leave the EU, not on any future relationships. Any future relationship is possible (or would require another referendum). I still think a Norway-style relationship would be the best for everyone. The best for the UK and EU economy, and the people would have their leave-vote implemented. 

[sandyf]

16 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

People only voted to leave the EU, not on any future relationships. Any future relationship is possible (or would require another referendum). I still think a Norway-style relationship would be the best for everyone. The best for the UK and EU economy, and the people would have their leave-vote implemented. 

Spot on. Brexiteers maintain that democracy should be respected but UK democracy over brexit is so screwed up 'respect' is hardly a word that can be used.

On the basis the UK must leave the I would agree on the Norway option being the most sensible course of action.

Edited September 24, 2018 by sandyf

[tebee]

Brexit was born from lies, deceit, and moral vacuousness, and will continue to be executed using them. Nothing good can possibly come from such a putrid rotten mess of the worst of human nature. 

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, sandyf said:

UK democracy in action - is this really what people voted for.

 

Most of Theresa May's cabinet ministers now support a Canada-style free trade agreement with the EU, according to reports.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-cabinet-support-canada-deal-eu-theresa-may-chequers-a8551721.html

 

Brexit secretary Dominic Raab has risked a row with Conservative rebels after saying the idea of a Canada-style trade deal is “off the table”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-brexit-canada-eu-off-the-table-andrew-marr-a8551026.html

They don't know what they are doing and have no idea how to proceed.

 

They are both clueless and incompetent. 

 

Brexit was a simple, but wrong answer, to UK's complex problems. Ergo people that support it have poor logical analysis skills. We have put these people in charge of our govt. What do you expect?

[Srikcir]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit was born from lies, deceit, and moral vacuousness

British doctors have hit back at Nigel Farage’s claims that they are scaremongering, arguing they have a duty to be honest with the people about the “real dangers” of a no-deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-no-deal-brexit-eu-ukip-politics-a8497466.html

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, sandyf said:

This document 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32008D0768&from=EN

covers the requirements for goods being sold and used within the "Community", it does not cover the "Community" and elsewhere.

 

You are perfectly free to share your knowledge on goods being used internationally.

pretty old document that you mention above

 

I actually checked on what I wrote above, in much newer documents.

what I wrote above also counts for transport within the Community.

and the additional marking will be enforced within the community, you bet

 

I can think of 2 reasons why these equipment pieces are treated differently,

) the ships and their equipment is subject to/part of a control regime which is much larger than EU

) also, it is a matter of adhering to long standing international treaties

 

(I can also think of some other kinds of radiocommunication equipment where additional marking

 would be required for the usage to be meaningful)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

Ah the sound of the dawn chorus! A bit off key due to the moisture from the fog.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

They don't know what they are doing and have no idea how to proceed.

 

They are both clueless and incompetent. 

 

Brexit was a simple, but wrong answer, to UK's complex problems. Ergo people that support it have poor logical analysis skills. We have put these people in charge of our govt. What do you expect?

'They don't know what they are doing and have no idea how to proceed.

 

They are both clueless and incompetent.'

 

 

And we might very well have said this from day one! 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

British doctors have hit back at Nigel Farage’s claims that they are scaremongering, arguing they have a duty to be honest with the people about the “real dangers” of a no-deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-no-deal-brexit-eu-ukip-politics-a8497466.html

The BMA are now scaremongering against brexit??! ????  Ever since they allowed admin staff to take over a large proportion of the NHS budget,  it's been obvious that they are similar to politicians i.e. only care about their own pockets and empires - but it's still suprising that they would enter the political world so obviously!

 

I never thought I'd say this (as I had little time for UKIP policies other than the 'main cause' - another referendum on whether to stay part of the eu) - but Farage needs to re-enter brit. politics ☹️.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The BMA are now scaremongering against brexit??! ????  Ever since they allowed admin staff to take over a large proportion of the NHS budget,  it's been obvious that they are similar to politicians i.e. only care about their own pockets and empires - but it's still suprising that they would enter the political world so obviously!

 

I never thought I'd say this (as I had little time for UKIP policies other than the 'main cause' - another referendum on whether to stay part of the eu) - but Farage needs to re-enter brit. politics ☹️.

So because they disagree with you politically, you assume  they "only care about their own pockets and empires " ? This is disingenuous to a group of dedicated professionals who care about doing their jobs and their patients.

 

And even if they were caring  "only about their own pockets and empires " if those were to suffer under Brexit, it would be because the NHS will suffer under Brexit - now you wouldn't want that ? 

 

Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The BMA are now scaremongering against brexit??! ????  Ever since they allowed admin staff to take over a large proportion of the NHS budget,  it's been obvious that they are similar to politicians i.e. only care about their own pockets and empires - but it's still suprising that they would enter the political world so obviously!

 

I never thought I'd say this (as I had little time for UKIP policies other than the 'main cause' - another referendum on whether to stay part of the eu) - but Farage needs to re-enter brit. politics ☹️.

 

17 minutes ago, tebee said:

So because they disagree with you politically, you assume  they "only care about their own pockets and empires " ? This is disingenuous to a group of dedicated professionals who care about doing their jobs and their patients.

 

And even if they were caring  "only about their own pockets and empires " if those were to suffer under Brexit, it would be because the NHS will suffer under Brexit - now you wouldn't want that ? 

 

Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it.

You clearly somehow managed to miss the first para. of my post....

 

Which brings me back to your comment - "So because they disagree with you politically".  Why on earth would - or should - the BMA be involved "politically"??!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

 

You clearly somehow managed to miss the first para. of my post....

 

Which brings me back to your comment - "So because they disagree with you politically".  Why on earth would - or should - the BMA be involved "politically"??!

Incidentally, you have also missed the point that I'm not 'politically' involved - as I despise all uk parties and politicians ????.

[dick dasterdly]

29 minutes ago, tebee said:

So because they disagree with you politically, you assume  they "only care about their own pockets and empires " ? This is disingenuous to a group of dedicated professionals who care about doing their jobs and their patients.

 

And even if they were caring  "only about their own pockets and empires " if those were to suffer under Brexit, it would be because the NHS will suffer under Brexit - now you wouldn't want that ? 

 

Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it.

"Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it."

 

I fear the death of the NHS too - but brexit will not be responsible, as politicians have been working on this for a very long time ☹️. 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it."

 

I fear the death of the NHS too - but brexit will not be responsible, as politicians have been working on this for a very long time ☹️. 

 

Not Labour. 

 

But I guess political spectrum to many on this forum just means what shade of blue!

 

All of us need to start recognising political economy again.  All political parties need to understand that the future is about a state managed economy.  I think this is a fundamental mis-understanding in the UK in particular where we have gotten used to turbo charged capitalism.

 

 

 

 

[aright]

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Not Labour. 

 

But I guess political spectrum to many on this forum just means what shade of blue!

 

All of us need to start recognising political economy again.  All political parties need to understand that the future is about a state managed economy.  I think this is a fundamental mis-understanding in the UK in particular where we have gotten used to turbo charged capitalism.

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by political spectrum and political economy and turbo charged capitalism?

[My Thai Life]

10 hours ago, tebee said:

Brexit was born from lies, deceit, and moral vacuousness, and will continue to be executed using them. Nothing good can possibly come from such a putrid rotten mess of the worst of human nature. 

Strong words indeed. Your message is in italics but unattributed, so I'm not sure whether it's your opinion or a quote. Here's a quote from one of the ideological fathers of the EU. 

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.” – Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

Nothing in politics I have seen in my lifetime comes close to the lies, deceit and moral vacuousness inherent in this statement,

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[aright]

10 hours ago, tebee said:

Brexit was born from lies, deceit, and moral vacuousness, and will continue to be executed using them. Nothing good can possibly come from such a putrid rotten mess of the worst of human nature. 

 

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Strong words indeed. Your message is in italics but unattributed, so I'm not sure whether it's your opinion or a quote. Here's a quote from one of the ideological fathers of the EU. 

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.” – Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

Nothing in politics I have seen in my lifetime comes close to the lies, deceit and moral vacuousness inherent in this statement,

 

 

 

And there was me thinking Brexit is all about democracy and freedom, confidence in our soulful nation to take back responsibility for our selves and to determine our future . Apparently I was wrong it's all about morality. Problem is morality is like art, you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise you pervert reality. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by aright

[CG1 Blue]

New Brexit referendum only on 'nature' of a deal

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell dashes pro-EU campaigners' hopes by ruling out having the option to stay in the EU on the ballot.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-new-brexit-referendum-should-only-be-on-nature-of-a-deal-11507247

 

Quite right too Mr McDonnell. Any 2nd referendum should be about HOW we leave, not IF we leave.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Brexit could very well be the death of the NHS as we know it."

 

I fear the death of the NHS too - but brexit will not be responsible, as politicians have been working on this for a very long time ☹️. 

You don't support the demise of your national healthcare and yet you support the very people who wish to turn your own country to USA style healthcare and politics?

 

Not really great thinking there. 

 

Do start thinking what you actually want and how it could be realistic.

[melvinmelvin]

53 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

New Brexit referendum only on 'nature' of a deal

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell dashes pro-EU campaigners' hopes by ruling out having the option to stay in the EU on the ballot.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-new-brexit-referendum-should-only-be-on-nature-of-a-deal-11507247

 

Quite right too Mr McDonnell. Any 2nd referendum should be about HOW we leave, not IF we leave.

 

fair enough, but there are other strong voices at the conf not ruling out remain as an option

will have to wait a few days and see

[Scott]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Strong words indeed. Your message is in italics but unattributed, so I'm not sure whether it's your opinion or a quote. Here's a quote from one of the ideological fathers of the EU. 

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.” – Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

Nothing in politics I have seen in my lifetime comes close to the lies, deceit and moral vacuousness inherent in this statement,

 

 

 

And speaking of unattributed quotes, it appears that your quote from Jean Monnet may not have ever been said by him:

 

https://eufundedproeutroll.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/european-union-what-did-monnet-say-about-europes-nations-and-the-superstate/

 

[My Thai Life]

17 minutes ago, Scott said:

And speaking of unattributed quotes, it appears that your quote from Jean Monnet may not have ever been said by him:

My quote was attributed actually - to Monnet. There does seem to be some doubt as to its origin, unconfirmed, which I now acknowedge. Some internet sources claim that the quote was actually a precis of Monnet's principles. But the playbook is the same:

 

Juncker  of the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

Juncker of the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

There are many other quotes which  confirm the playbook in operation, you could try Canterbrigian's to start with.

 

Please feel free to research Juncker if you think I am misquoting, and don't hesitate to let me know if you think I am. British/EU politics is something that many of us have had decades of exposure to. Cheers.

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

My quote was attributed actually - to Monnet. There does seem to be some doubt as to its origin, unconfirmed, which I now acknowedge. Some internet sources claim that the quote was actually a precis of Monnet's principles. But the playbook is the same:

 

Juncker  of the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”

 

Juncker of the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

There are many other quotes which  confirm the playbook in operation, you could try Canterbrigian's to start with.

 

Please feel free to research Juncker if you think I am misquoting, and don't hesitate to let me know if you think I am. British/EU politics is something that many of us have had decades of exposure to. Cheers.

 

Once again, do you have sources of these quotes? Or are those quotes simply from the Internets?

 

"Internet porn is the best porn there is" Albert Einstein 1911.

 

 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Strong words indeed. Your message is in italics but unattributed, so I'm not sure whether it's your opinion or a quote. Here's a quote from one of the ideological fathers of the EU. 

 

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.” – Jean Monnet, one of the founders of the EU, 1952.

 

Nothing in politics I have seen in my lifetime comes close to the lies, deceit and moral vacuousness inherent in this statement,

 

 

 

It's a quote from a former British negotiator to the EU. Didn't attribute it as  the name would mean nothing to most people. But I pretty much agree with the sentiments.

 

The leave case has been built on lies and deceptions from day 1 . Promising all the benefits of EU membership, but without paying for them and without the immigrants. It was never possible and those that were promoting it knew it was impossible. 

 

From the day leave won they have been like the dog that caught the car and in two years no one has come up with a credible idea of how to do it without wrecking the economy.

 

The sad thing is it's the people who voted leave will be worse affected by it if it ever happens. the "metropolitan middle class elites" have skills that will still have value outside of Brexit Britain and the rich are always isolated from these things.

 

It's the elderly who will suffer from a lack of care staff, the pensioners who will see the value of their pensions go down, those older people who were relying on the value of their house to see them through old age and the skilled working class who will see their jobs in manufacturing evaporate. 

 

It's split families and will poison politics and social cohesion in the UK until the brexit voting generation have died out. I don't expect either of the two main political parties to survive this and I'm not entirely sure our democratic system will either.   The Uk will probably break up.   

 

 

[My Thai Life]

All you have to do is copy and paste them into google and see what comes up. Quicker for you to do that than harass me. Let us know what you find.

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

The sad thing is it's the people who voted leave will be worse affected by it if it ever happens. the "metropolitan middle class elites" have skills that will still have value outside of Brexit Britain and the rich are always isolated from these things.

 

It's the elderly who will suffer from a lack of care staff, the pensioners who will see the value of their pensions go down, those older people who were relying on the value of their house to see them through old age and the skilled working class who will see their jobs in manufacturing evaporate. 

 

It's split families and will poison politics and social cohesion in the UK until the brexit voting generation have died out. I don't expect either of the two main political parties to survive this and I'm not entirely sure our democratic system will either.   The Uk will probably break up.  

I really don't think it's wise to state things like this as fact:

 

"the people who voted leave will be worse affected by it" and

"the elderly who will suffer from a lack of care staff" and

"the pensioners who will see the value of their pensions go down" "older people who were relying on the value of their house to see them through old age" and

"the skilled working class who will see their jobs in manufacturing evaporate." 

 

You don't if any of this is true.  Nobody does!

 

I do agree the debate has split families etc., and that the Scottish Indy ref is back on the table. Those things are a pity.  I think they can be healed though, after a successful Brexit (which I realise is also not factual!)

Edited September 24, 2018 by CG1 Blue

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

All you have to do is copy and paste them into google and see what comes up. Quicker for you to do that than harass me. Let us know what you find.

Well if you do a search it's very hard to find a source where it is canonically attributed to Monnet - certainly there appears to be no trace of the letter from which it is supposed to have originated. 

 

Monnet's pasion for European union originated during WW2 - he didn't want to see it repeated. A (genuine) quote of his from 1943

 

"There will be no peace in Europe, if the states are reconstituted on the basis of national sovereignty... The countries of Europe are too small to guarantee their peoples the necessary prosperity and social development. The European states must constitute themselves into a federation.."

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

The leave case has been built on lies and deceptions from day 1

The EU has been built on lies and deception from day 1. Please see my recent quotes from Juncker, but the list is pretty much endless and undeniable, and I'm not going to waste your or my time by reposting them. None of the remain voters has ever responded to my question "what did you think you were voting for?" - they can't because "ever closer union" has never been defined. 

 

The remain case was built on Government using taxpayer's money to attempt to coerce taxpayers to remain. The taxpayers didn't accept the coercion and voted to leave.

 

The best solution imho will be a free trade deal, this is the only option that will actually deliver on the referendum result. And it looks increasingly likely. Some forecasts show a positive cumulative GDP for a free trade deal over the next 15 years, some show a negative. Work out the the GDP per head for the worst case forecasts, it's a small price to pay to get out of this protectionist cartel.

 

I agree to disagree with you. We don't need to be hostile.