UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

More cheap insults from the cups of cheap whisky. 

Then you should know the sample size is good for 95% confidence with 2.5% accuracy approx.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

The trouble with Brexit is it's the kind of mass hysteria that lets in despots and dictators.

In countries  with despotic governments one thing we learn from history is that often a majority of the population didn't see it coming.... and they certainly didn't listen to those who did....maybe this time people will learn.

 

See if you voted on these principles ...

 

 

 

We already have our despots and dictators in Brussels.

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Then why don’t the Brexiteers accept leaving the EU but staying in the single market (with its four freedoms)? Perfectly fits the ballot ticket. 

 

No, Brexiteers claim the right to force their interpretation of what was meant with what’s written on the ballot ticket onto the rest of the country, and then call that “respecting democracy”. Ridiculous. 

 

Certainly not. No one forced the U.K. to become an EU member; no one force the U.K. to Brexit; no one forced the U.K. to Brexit without a plan, preparations, and having spent any thought on the whole thing. That’s all the UKs decisions alone as a sovereign state. 

 

No Interpreation required every household in the UK receive a leaflet stating if you vote leave that means the Uk will be leaving the EU, Single Market and Customs union

"If Leave, you're quitting the Single Market" v1 Cameron/Osborne

 

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Yes and you know why  any poll can be rigged to deliver a particular outcome, Don't you find it strange that these polls always come out in favour of who is sponsoring paying for the poll, its unlikely there a clause in the contract between the sponsor and the pollster that the sponsor doesn't have to pay in the event they disagree with the poll results

Yes of course. There are many factors involved but the sample size was not unreasonable which was my point.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

We already have our despots and dictators in Brussels.

Nigel Farage is still MEP, representing the Queen of England in Brussels?

[My Thai Life]

37 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Then you should know the sample size is good for 95% confidence with 2.5% accuracy approx.

Completely illogical.

 

How can your habit of shooting the breeze here in your cups, abusively, in one-liners, have anything to do with what I know?

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by My Thai Life

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Yes of course. There are many factors involved but the sample size was not unreasonable which was my point.

Polls are pointless in my opinion and should be ignored , If I remember correctly most Polls indicated that remain would win  and  the hidden message was to anyone voting leave don't bother because your vote wouldn't count 

[My Thai Life]

Anyone for pizza?

 

"Eight Cabinet ministers with concerns about Theresa May's Brexit plans attended a "pizza summit" in the Commons amid mounting pressure on the Prime Minister. 

Andrea Leadsom, the Leader of the Commons and one of the most significant critics of the Prime Minister's customs union backstop, hosted the meeting in her Commons office on Monday evening. 

The scale of the summit and seniority of those who attended is likely to concern Downing Street ahead of a crunch Cabinet meeting on Tuesday.

 

They included Ms Leadsom, Dominic Raab, the Brexit Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, the Foreign Secretary, Michael Gove, the Environment Secretary, Penny Mordaunt, the International Development Secretary, Chris Grayling, the Transport Secretary, Liz Truss, Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General."

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/15/eight-cabinet-ministers-concerns-mays-backstop-plan-attend-andrea/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

[adammike]

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Polls are pointless in my opinion and should be ignored , If I remember correctly most Polls indicated that remain would win  and  the hidden message was to anyone voting leave don't bother because your vote wouldn't count 

Funny that I read it as the other way round,"don't bother voting to stay as remain will win whatever"

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Nigel Farage is still MEP, representing the Queen of England in Brussels?

Not who I was referring to. As an MEP Farage is not in a position of any meaningful power. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

47 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

No Interpreation required every household in the UK receive a leaflet stating if you vote leave that means the Uk will be leaving the EU, Single Market and Customs union

No, it only said “Remain a member of the European Union” and “Leave the European Union”. Nowhere did it say: “Future relationship will not include: Single market and customs union” or whatsoever.

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[mommysboy]

53 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

MB, apologies, need to revise this. If there were a GE and Labour won, the parliamentary arithmetic is very likely to change of course - not all Labourites are Frank Field.

 

But will there be a GE, and would Labour win on a Remain ticket? Re the first point - unlikely imho, certainly not in the time frame. Re the second point - given that Labour supported the Brexit result last time, and that some of the highest leave wards were Labour, that also seems highly unlikely.

 

Really, the best and most democratic approach is to accept that (1) Leave won (2) we are going to leave (3) FTA is the most llkely way, whether via "orderly" or "no deal".

Yes it would. Obviously, as a Labour voter there are many times I just have to accept loss.  I don't exactly know why Remainers can't accept so easily, but I think again it comes down to the peculiar nature of Brexit where all good things were promised and reality is suspended-  I mean how can anyone think that an independent country would not have a border?  What's so bad about having a border?  It's not a military checkpoint and it could even be away from the actual physical border.

 

I rather think Brexit has created a mass hysteria as one poster recently said.  Still, I always return to the promise of a free trade deal. I can't help but cry foul on behalf of Remainers I must admit- what a whopper!

 

It's really bad luck for Brexiteers that Brexit should also be so strongly associated with some really wacky Tory politicians. Bad luck for May too- she seems a thoroughly decent politician and might under other circumstances have flourished in to a great PM.

 

For Tory voters on this thread, some of the chagrin that you don't understand can be imagined by contemplating your worst fears of having a loony left Labour Government derailing the country as in the 70's, ie, if it is not bad enough that Brexit is actually happening it appears that the hard right is in charge of it.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

Funny that I read it as the other way round,"don't bother voting to stay as remain will win whatever"

I think the over-riding problem was that every aspect of Brexit meant all things to all people.

[Orac]

Nigel Farage is still MEP, representing the Queen of England in Brussels?

Not sure that is strictly correct.

MEPs for EU and MPs for UK represent the people. Technically the Govt and appointees which would include our Commissioner to the EU represent the Queen.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

No Interpreation required every household in the UK receive a leaflet stating if you vote leave that means the Uk will be leaving the EU, Single Market and Customs union

 

 

Is this the leaflet that everyone refers to?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

[vinny41]

53 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

No, it only said “Remain a member of the European Union” and “Leave the European Union”. Nowhere did it say: “Future relationship will not include: Single market and customs union” or whatsoever.

 

"

Then why don’t the Brexiteers accept leaving the EU but staying in the single market (with its four freedoms)? Perfectly fits the ballot ticket. 

 

No, Brexiteers claim the right to force their interpretation of what was meant with what’s written on the ballot ticket onto the rest of the country, and then call that “respecting democracy”. Ridiculous. "

 

As you stated yourself the options on the voting paper were Remain a member of the European Union” and “Leave the European Union”

So can we assume as you are respecting democracy the Uk will leave

[vinny41]

17 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Is this the leaflet that everyone refers to?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

Yes that is the Goverment one that every household received  in addition to that one there are approx 190 leaflets that people would have received depending on their location all those leaftlets can be found here

https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/brexit/2016

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

"

Then why don’t the Brexiteers accept leaving the EU but staying in the single market (with its four freedoms)? Perfectly fits the ballot ticket. 

 

No, Brexiteers claim the right to force their interpretation of what was meant with what’s written on the ballot ticket onto the rest of the country, and then call that “respecting democracy”. Ridiculous. "

 

As you stated yourself the options on the voting paper were Remain a member of the European Union” and “Leave the European Union”

So can we assume as you are respecting democracy the Uk will leave

'Then why don’t the Brexiteers accept leaving the EU but staying in the single market (with its four freedoms)? Perfectly fits the ballot ticket. '

 

Some do. But most want a harder Brexit.  Some even want a no deal. You get the idea that a small minority actually want a showdown with the EU, with Remainers, and even within their own party.

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

'Then why don’t the Brexiteers accept leaving the EU but staying in the single market (with its four freedoms)? Perfectly fits the ballot ticket. '

 

Some do. But most want a harder Brexit.  Some even want a no deal. You get the idea that a small minority actually want a showdown with the EU, with Remainers, and even within their own party.

Leaving the EU and staying in the single market is the same as remaining , Leavers voted to leave the EU, Leave the single market and Leave the custom union

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Yes that is the Goverment one that every household received  in addition to that one there are approx 190 leaflets that people would have received depending on their location all those leaftlets can be found here

https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/brexit/2016

'every household in the UK receive a leaflet stating if you vote leave that means the Uk will be leaving the EU, Single Market and Customs union'

 

The one I referenced doesn't actually state this as far as I can tell.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

More cheap insults from the cups of cheap whisky. 

He still cannot stop making the cheap insults. You should know by now Grouse is the most superior person on the Brexit threads.

 

A veritable legend in his own coffee break.

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Leaving the EU and staying in the single market is the same as remaining , Leavers voted to leave the EU, Leave the single market and Leave the custom union

It's just not true- Norway for instance.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, oilinki said:

Nigel Farage is still MEP, representing the Queen of England in Brussels?

 

No he represents a section of the voting public in his MEP constituency.

 

He does not represent the Queen.

[welovesundaysatspace]

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

As you stated yourself the options on the voting paper were Remain a member of the European Union” and “Leave the European Union”

So can we assume as you are respecting democracy the Uk will leave

Leave the EU, thus respecting the referendum result. At the same time, negotiate a post-Brexit deal which gives the UK access to the single market by implementing the four Freedoms etc. All problems solved.

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Leaving the EU and staying in the single market is the same as remaining

Not true. EU membership and a deal giving access to the single market are two completely different things. 

 

[vinny41]

15 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Leave the EU, thus respecting the referendum result. At the same time, negotiate a post-Brexit deal which gives the UK access to the single market by implementing the four Freedoms etc. All problems solved.

and those four freedoms are  free movement of goods, services, capital and – most controversially - labour.

which is the reason why people voted leave they don't want those freedoms 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

and those four freedoms are  free movement of goods, services, capital and – most controversially - labour.

which is the reason why people voted leave they don't want those freedoms 

So you’re speaking for the people now? 

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So you’re speaking for the people now? 

Why not every other remainer on here speaks for the people why can't a leaver speak for the people

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, billd766 said:

He still cannot stop making the cheap insults. You should know by now Grouse is the most superior person on the Brexit threads.

 

A veritable legend in his own coffee break.

Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

 

"1,199 people took part in the poll out of a population of 1.871 million" Was the point I was referring to.

 

This sort of basic misunderstanding has been dealt with dozens of times and it starts to wear.

 

I made a sharp comment certainly but I see nothing cheap or insulting about it. Rather elementary mathematics frankly.

 

No wish to bicker so I'll leave it at that....

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

 

Thoroughly recommended. Informative and actually quite erudite.