UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chelseafan]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

It's straight forward international aviation law...nothing to do with any project fear. If you are no longer a signatory to EU flight regs, you can't fly.

Let's say there is a hard brexit. Do you really think that flights into the EU will be shutdown? Absolutely not. There will be an "open skies" agreement whereby flights have to originate from UK. No different to now.

 

As I said before, if the EU did play hardball on this, it would be just as disruptive for them as it would be for us. Passengers and cargo arrive into the UK from Europe every day.

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

True, plus I don’t think the Spanish and Greek tourist industry would be too happy, especially with their youth unemployment rate being so high.

 What I cannot understand, is why the two British negotiators ????May and Robbins failed to take this and other weaknesses on the E.u side into consideration.

 

you may find some of the relevant coop areas addressed in the "deal"

under the heading Security  considerations/cooperation

spook coop - police coop - anti terror coop - etc, are mentioned

 

transport (air, marine, train, road) not mentioned

 

at least, the above I have seen in msm

 

guess TMs plan was to secure a deal,

then address the very huge heap of coop areas after March

 

[SheungWan]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

People do get very confused about exchange rates - a weak pound is good for exports.

The Zimbabwe Theory of Currency and Economics.

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

It’s all part of project fear. The big question is, will some members of the public,be so gullible to beleive it. Probably so, as the remainers control all the media.

You have still got Fox News and RTT.

[SheungWan]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

Perhaps he’s like us Brexiteers, in that he does’t beleive her. And why should he. As she has shown herself to be an habitual lire.

The Italian Job.

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

Probably so, as the remainers control all the media.

None are nueutral?

BBC ‘bias’ in Brexit coverage defended by former political editor Nick Robinson

The BBC's Nick Robinson has told Remainers and Leavers to lay off the broadcaster as it asks tough questions during Britain's exit from the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/bbc-brexit-bias-nick-robinson-defend-broadcaster-a7665316.html

[SheungWan]

12 hours ago, vogie said:

to say "we have developed an hatred for foreigners is purely provocative and untrue.

So true for the Hard Brexiteers you could fry an egg on it.

[SheungWan]

15 hours ago, talahtnut said:

If you were in a dangerous situation, would you take the advice of an old man, or a young man fresh out

of uni with a degree in basket weaving or

theoretical quantum physics?

By the way, do you have any stats on demented youngsters?

I would obviously prioritize taking the advice of a grumpy Old Fool and Horses Hard Brexiteer from the provinces for all the important decisions in life.

[Grouse]

 

Prof Dougan strikes again. 

 

Essential watching for those actually interested in the facts

 

Dick, please watch this.

[melvinmelvin]

Just seen in Swedish msm dn.se

 

The Commission has recently announced that they have started to look at various measures that could be

taken in order to avoid disruption of air transport after a no deal Brexit.

 

train-road-marine transport not mentioned (road and marine is pretty important)

 

UK-Spain are already in talks re shaping the Cliff related text in the deal,

advanced i dotting and t striking me thinks.

 

Greg/Transport has apparently said that Xmas 2022 would be a suitable time for having completed the lot.

TM says preferably before GE mid 2022.

 

 

[bristolboy]

8 hours ago, adammike said:

On the radio today somebody made the point that when a Thai or Moroccan moves to the UK they become immigrants but when a white European moves to Thailand he becomes an expat.explain that please.

Did that person also make the point that in the UK you can denounce the government without fear whereas in North Korea such behaviour will get you executed. Maybe the UK government should align with North Korea the the way it treats critics?

 

And as for the conditions faced by a white European in Thailand, are you suggesting that a non-white European would be treated differently? Or is it your belief that only white people can be Europeans? Either way, congratulations on revealing your racism. 

[Stupooey]

"Looks like freedom but it feels like death

It's something in between, I guess"

 

Leonard Cohen - Closing Time

 

Why is it I think of Brexit whenever I hear this?

 

 

[Orac]

Maybe I'm in the right circles but none of my hard-brexiteer friends have a hatred of foreigners. Are they sick of the EU, absolutely. Do they want a change of direction for the country, indubitably. Are they Racist. No.
 
I'm not saying there isn't a small %age of Neanderthals who not only hate foreigners, but also gays, Jews and vegans you know the type, stereotypically from Essex, right wing, uneducated but these people are in the minority surely.
 

I get the impression that both hard brexiteers and vocal remainers have become very much a minority with most people now wishing the whole thing would go away. Noticeable that even the ERG cannot get the support of the 48 Tory MPs they need to push a leadership challenge despite it being only 15% of them and the remain side only have a small handful that have stood up to be counted - guess the rest are trying to hide out of the way hoping it blows over.




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[GinBoy2]

Now I am but a stoopid 'merican, but as a lifelong Anglophile, I do watch with some bafflement at what's going on in the 'Mother of Parliaments'

 

So to lighten the mood a little, I came across this. (sorry if it's been posted before, but I ain't reading through 600+ pages)

 

https://www.facebook.com/PoliticalScrapbook/videos/10155719979439218/?t=1

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, Orac said:

 

I get the impression that both hard brexiteers and vocal remainers have become very much a minority with most people now wishing the whole thing would go away. Noticeable that even the ERG cannot get the support of the 48 Tory MPs they need to push a leadership challenge despite it being only 15% of them and the remain side only have a small handful that have stood up to be counted - guess the rest are trying to hide out of the way hoping it blows over.




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What are the requirements for a PM challenge in parliament?

 

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

"Looks like freedom but it feels like death

It's something in between, I guess"

 

Leonard Cohen - Closing Time

 

Why is it I think of Brexit whenever I hear this?

 

 

 

mebbee 'cause Cohen has gone

 

 

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

It's straight forward international aviation law...nothing to do with any project fear. If you are no longer a signatory to EU flight regs, you can't fly.

Exactly, but it is not going to happen and not for the reasons being put forward. If it did come to the death without a solution there would be an emergency extension to article 50, but even that is not going to happen.

In the days prior to the end of March, faced with a no deal scenario, the UK government will sign up to EASA, along with the other essential agencies. Red lines will become a thing of the past.

[Orac]

 
What are the requirements for a PM challenge in parliament?
 

The PM is the leader of her party so, in the first instance, her party will challenge her. 15% (48 at present) of her parties MPs must submit a letter of no confidence to the chairman of the Tory backbench committee who will arrange a no confidence vote amongst their own MPs. It can be done very quickly (24hrs in the past) and almost certainly she would win this. Then follows a leadership contest where the PM can stand and various MPs from he own party would stand against her - party MPs then vote and after each vote one candidate is eliminated until two are left. These two then go to a vote by Conservative party members nationally.


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[sandyf]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

Why can't we (you and I) travel freely after brexit, Mays Brexit divorce deal says visa free travel in Europe, subject to the HOC passing it of course. ????

You need to understand the difference between visa free and visa waiver.

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The PM is the leader of her party so, in the first instance, her party will challenge her. 15% (48 at present) of her parties MPs must submit a letter of no confidence to the chairman of the Tory backbench committee who will arrange a no confidence vote amongst their own MPs. It can be done very quickly (24hrs in the past) and almost certainly she would win this. Then follows a leadership contest where the PM can stand and various MPs from he own party would stand against her - party MPs then vote and after each vote one candidate is eliminated until two are left. These two then go to a vote by Conservative party members nationally.


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yes, ok, but this is a Tory internal process.

 

but must be possible for parliament to challenge PM/cabinet without any Tory internal processes, (I assume)

 

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, billd766 said:

Here are 6 links for you. I didn't bother to put the links from Trump up, but they are out if you want to look.

 

Well the Dutch don't think so.

 

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/1116/1011481-eu-army/

 

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/11/17/580255/Mark-Rutte-European-army-NATO-Emmanuel-Macron-Angela-Merkel

 

The Germans and the French want it.

 

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2018/1116/1011481-eu-army/

 

Even Juncker wants it.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-31874418/european-union-army-proposal-from-jean-claude-juncker

 

This link is 2 years old.

 

https://www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-four-reasons-it-will-not-happen

 

You obviously want to ignore my comment regarding politicians, most of the links are based on misinterpretation of Macron's words. As for Juncker do you really think that "wants EU states to pool their military resources" means creating a completely separate military force from the NATO commitment.

 

If you wish to believe these articles over the German Defence ministers clarification at the weekend that is entirely up to you.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

You need to understand the difference between visa free and visa waiver.

Can I just say Sandy I don't need to understand anything, engaging in dialogue with people that think they are superior to me is a problem to me.

 

This is a quote from the independent, if I have read it wrong please accept my appologies.

 

If we leave without an agreement, nobody knows what will happen, if we leave with an agreement the likelyhood of visa free travel is very likely.

Have you a link to your version of a visa waiver travel in Europe and I have no intention of playing pedantics with you.

 

 

"But the commissioners decided that the UK could be placed on the visa-free list, along with people from the Americas, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand and several dozen other countries.

 

The decision is contingent upon the UK allowing Europeans to visit without visas, which the British government has already indicated will happen."

 

 

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, JAG said:

You make assumptions...

Nowhere have I said anything that supports those assumptions.

 

My post argues that the UK, when it is no longer a member of the EU should be able to make it's own decisions on trade (decisions made by the government elected by it's own people) rather than have decisions and policies on trade imposed.

 

Perhaps using that argument to justify the (completely unfounded) assumptions which you have made reveals some paranoia on your part?

 

Q

The greatest assumption in UK history is that promoted by the leavers that the UK would be better out than in.

 

Do you really think that if the analysis on remaining vs the May deal was in favour of the May deal, then TM would need her arm twisting to publish it?

[Orac]

yes, ok, but this is a Tory internal process.
 
but must be possible for parliament to challenge PM/cabinet without any Tory internal processes, (I assume)
 

Virtually impossible given current set up. Two thirds majority of all MPs (including vacant seats) to trigger a general election, majority of MPs to vote to install a new govt (have 14 days to approve new govt by majority vote or GE triggered).

In reality some conservatives would need to vote themselves out of a job to do this and give Corbyn a chance to form a govt which would not happen.


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[transam]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The greatest assumption in UK history is that promoted by the leavers that the UK would be better out than in.

 

Do you really think that if the analysis on remaining vs the May deal was in favour of the May deal, then TM would need her arm twisting to publish it?

You remind me of a time in the UK's history when Brits actually voted for the Communist, Black Shirt and Monster Raving Loony parties...????

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Virtually impossible given current set up. Two thirds majority of all MPs (including vacant seats) to trigger a general election, majority of MPs to vote to install a new govt (have 14 days to approve new govt by majority vote or GE triggered).

In reality some conservatives would need to vote themselves out of a job to do this and give Corbyn a chance to form a govt which would not happen.


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ok, thanks for that

(never mind a GE)

 

If I understand you correctly;

a simple majority in favour of a tabled non-confidence motion

will do the trick (ie exit PM and cabinet) ?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Prof Dougan strikes again. 

 

Essential watching for those actually interested in the facts

 

Dick, please watch this.

"Dick, please watch this."

 

I assume you're referring to me?

 

If so, my laptop is playing up and the sound is so low that it's impossible to watch or, more importantly, listen, to any video clips that are more than a couple of minutes long ☹️.

Edited November 21, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[sandyf]

27 minutes ago, vogie said:

Can I just say Sandy I don't need to understand anything, engaging in dialogue with people that think they are superior to me is a problem to me.

 

This is a quote from the independent, if I have read it wrong please accept my appologies.

 

If we leave without an agreement, nobody knows what will happen, if we leave with an agreement the likelyhood of visa free travel is very likely.

Have you a link to your version of a visa waiver travel in Europe and I have no intention of playing pedantics with you.

 

 

"But the commissioners decided that the UK could be placed on the visa-free list, along with people from the Americas, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, New Zealand and several dozen other countries.

 

The decision is contingent upon the UK allowing Europeans to visit without visas, which the British government has already indicated will happen."

 

 

I would have thought by now you would have realised not to take the media as read, only Schengen citizens are actually visa free.

All citizens not entitled to enter the Schengen area are subject to a visa requirement. These requirements vary and at the moment the UK is under a Visa Facilitation Agreement. Post brexit it is expected to become some form of visa waiver agreement, which in due course is expected to come under the new EU arrangement similar to the US ESTA.

It is more than likely the visa waiver would be in place irrespective of deal or no deal. It would be a reciprocal agreement which would affect the EU citizens in the UK.

 

Note - ESTA is the US visa waiver program.

Edited November 21, 2018 by sandyf

[Grouse]

59 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

What are the requirements for a PM challenge in parliament?

 

48 Tory MPs requesting a leadership challenge in confidence. Then 2/3 majority of Tory MPs. No chance.

 

An election is a different issue

[dick dasterdly]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

You remind me of a time in the UK's history when Brits actually voted for the Communist, Black Shirt and Monster Raving Loony parties...????

Not fair!  I voted for the monster raving loony party (or whatever it was called) once - as it was so obvious that a protest vote was required against both the Labour and Tory parties, as they were pretty much the same....