UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[baboon]

56 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Today. Watch how the ground moves after the deal is rejected, and Corbyn fails to get his election.

What do you think will happen?

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, rixalex said:

Funny also how he and his fellow remainers are so angry that the Tories allowed the people to decide on the matter in a referendum, and would have preferred if Parliament had simply gone on ignoring the will of the people and had we never had the referendum in first place.

Then, in their next breath, they are arguing how we need another referendum as the will of the people must be heard and as the people don't support Brexit.

These people's heads must be spinning so hard it's a wonder they can get dressed in the morning.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I don't think you would know "funny" if it kicked you in arse!

 

Parliament asked the electorate to give an opinion. Obviously a foolish idea

 

A second referendum would not be required if we had proper parliamentarians who understood what the role was instead of pocketing the tax payers shilling in exchange for damn all.

[bomber]

9 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Precisely but he has also said that today that any deal will leave us worse off compared with staying in.  But this is not news because it was always accepted that we would be economically worse off after Brexit.

the treasury has said GDP will be bad with the present deal but much worse with a no deal,pretty much what anyone with any sense has known for a while,so remain is the best option,why are we going ahead with it,its madness it should be called off and another vote in 5-10 years time so people know whats involved,this what civilised nations would do,the supposed superior nation is actually a pathetic has been so far germans/europeans in expertise/organisation/know how its comical.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, bomber said:

the treasury has said GDP will be bad with the present deal but much worse with a no deal,pretty much what anyone with any sense has known for a while,so remain is the best option,why are we going ahead with it,its madness it should be called off and another vote in 5-10 years time so people know whats involved,this what civilised nations would do,the supposed superior nation is actually a pathetic has been so far germans/europeans in expertise/organisation/know how its comical.

Project Fear continues. Remain was one of the two options in the 2016 referendum but it did not receive the majority vote. Say the Brexit vote was ignored or turned over and we didn't leave, how could anyone then know what is really involved if we go back to more of the same (EU)?

 

If we don't leave now then the political damage to the UK will be far worse than any economic pain. The economy was not the main reason for most leave votes and this is never acknowledged by remainers, even after nearly 2 1/2 years!     

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Project Fear continues. Remain was one of the two options in the 2016 referendum but it did not receive the majority vote. Say the Brexit vote was ignored or turned over and we didn't leave, how could anyone then know what is really involved if we go back to more of the same (EU)?

 

If we don't leave now then the political damage to the UK will be far worse than any economic pain. The economy was not the main reason for most leave votes and this is never acknowledged by remainers, even after nearly 2 1/2 years!     

I can't believe that people voted to be worse off when they voted for Brexit.  I agree that the economy wasn't the motivating factor for the Brexiteers but most will admit that the message on the bus and the promises of more money for the NHS played a significant part.  

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

And the best way test that theory is to put it to the vote, a vote based on facts as opposed to false promises.

no issue with a vote on deal or leave without a deal as that is a new vote but everyone knows the remainers want different something else

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can't believe that people voted to be worse off when they voted for Brexit.  I agree that the economy wasn't the motivating factor for the Brexiteers but most will admit that the message on the bus and the promises of more money for the NHS played a significant part.  

Corbyn stated Corbyn: I think a lot of people have been totally angered by the way in which their communities have been left behind. We had high Leave votes in the most left-behind areas of the country. In a lot of deprived areas, working conditions have deteriorated over the decades, protected by European legislation.

When you have nothing its diffcult to be worse off if you have nothing to start with

[Jip99]

10 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can't believe that people voted to be worse off when they voted for Brexit.  I agree that the economy wasn't the motivating factor for the Brexiteers but most will admit that the message on the bus and the promises of more money for the NHS played a significant part.  

 

 

I have not met anybody who believed that £350m per week would go into the NHS.

 

Most people, like me, were able to read (and understand) the words that said “We send £350m a week to the EU, let’s fund our NHS instead“........ at no point did I think that every Penny we saved in EU contributions would go into the NHS. That would be totally unrealistic and I wouldn’t want that. An increase in NHS funding is certainly something that I would have expected to see.

[vinny41]

50 minutes ago, bomber said:

the treasury has said GDP will be bad with the present deal but much worse with a no deal,pretty much what anyone with any sense has known for a while,so remain is the best option,why are we going ahead with it,its madness it should be called off and another vote in 5-10 years time so people know whats involved,this what civilised nations would do,the supposed superior nation is actually a pathetic has been so far germans/europeans in expertise/organisation/know how its comical.

If you go down that route then the same applies for a Labour Goverment

Corbyn becoming PM is 'worse threat to business than Brexit', says bank

Report by Morgan Stanley says general election likely in 2018, and Labour winning could damage valuations of UK companies

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/corbyn-becoming-pm-is-worse-threat-to-british-business-than-brexit-says-bank

Britain 'will go BUST under Corbyn Labour government' claims financial director

BRITAIN will go bust in three years if Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party wins a general election, it has been claimed.

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/892420/jeremy-corbyn-labour-government-britain-economy-bust

[SheungWan]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

I have not met anybody who believed that £350m per week would go into the NHS.

Most people, like me, were able to read (and understand) the words that said “We send £350m a week to the EU, let’s fund our NHS instead“........ at no point did I think that every Penny we saved in EU contributions would go into the NHS. That would be totally unrealistic and I wouldn’t want that. An increase in NHS funding is certainly something that I would have expected to see.

Here comes the Spin Brigade!

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, baboon said:

What do you think will happen?

 

Wow, there's a question.

 

I don't believe that we will end up in a no deal outcome, I think MP's will put the brakes on that option.

 

I'm not sure if May will survive her deal being voted down on the first vote on 11 December. It's a tricky one as I think the 48 letters will be sent after the vote, but with quite a lot of public support for May currently I don't think that MP's will pull the trigger. But if the number of votes is high, she might well just say goodbye, I've done my best. If she wins reasonably well she will go back for another try with the EU. If she loses her replacement will do the same, go back to the EU with another idea ... possibly Norway for now. If her replacement tried to force no deal I think the government would fall ... and we then have an election. That's too much a risk for Tory MP's to take. So I think that is unlikely. If the second try gets rejected we are into a second referendum or an election ... with my bet on a second referendum as I think that would get enough votes. I have a sneaking suspicion that the second try will win the day ... and we'll see either May's tweaked plan or Norway for now. Failing that a second referendum and the end of Brexit. 

 

I think for the sake of the nation I'd prefer May's plan or Norway for now. No one gets everything that they want. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by AlexRich

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Wow, there's a question.

 

I don't believe that we will end up in a no deal outcome, I think MP's will but the brakes on that option.

 

I'm not sure if May will survive her deal being voted down on the first vote on 11 December. It's a tricky one as I think the 48 letters will be sent after the vote, but with quite a lot of public support for May currently I don't think that MP's will pull the trigger. But if the number of votes is high, she might well just say goodbye, I've done my best. If she wins reasonably well she will go back for another try with the EU. If she loses her replacement will do the same, go back to the EU with another idea ... possibly Norway for now. If her replacement tried to force no deal I think the government would fall ... and we then have an election. That's too much a risk for Tory MP's to take. So I think that is unlikely. If the second try gets rejected we are into a second referendum or an election ... with my bet on a second referendum as I think that would get enough votes. I have a sneaking suspicion that the second try will win the day ... and we'll see either May's tweaked plan or Norway for now. Failing that a second referendum and the end of Brexit. 

 

I think for the sake of the nation I'd prefer May's plan or Norway for now. No one gets everything that they want. 

 

 

 

 

I would tend tend to agree with all that - except the s3cond referendum part; I see less political will for that than for getting out with a deal.

[nauseus]

54 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I can't believe that people voted to be worse off when they voted for Brexit.  I agree that the economy wasn't the motivating factor for the Brexiteers but most will admit that the message on the bus and the promises of more money for the NHS played a significant part.  

No, most won't admit that because the bus did not play the part that remainers like to imagine it did.  

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Democracy is a never ending process, not a stopped clock, and this country is entitled to vote on the facts. A referendum decision can be overturned by another vote, indeed, it is the only democratic way of doing so. If someone voted leave no one is stopping them from voting for a no deal Brexit. 

 

I think we we are heading for a soft Brexit, May’s deal or another, or no Brexit at all. I can live with both.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

And now we can add AlexRich to the same grouping

[AlexRich]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And now we can add AlexRich to the same grouping

 

What big lie? I express an opinion on here ... so I'll await your response with interest.

[bomber]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Corbyn stated Corbyn: I think a lot of people have been totally angered by the way in which their communities have been left behind. We had high Leave votes in the most left-behind areas of the country. In a lot of deprived areas, working conditions have deteriorated over the decades, protected by European legislation.

When you have nothing its diffcult to be worse off if you have nothing to start with

where exactly are these left behind area's where working conditions have deteriorated? i think mean council estates full of benefit scrounging,alcoholic,druggie,single mothers,how can this scum have deteriorated working conditions when they dont/wont work because they get more money not working,sweet FA to do with EU legislation,100% made in Great (haha) Britain,these people just love the likes of corbyn,farage,johnson as goebel's said tell them often enough they will believe its true.

[AlexRich]

But back to Baboon's question - what do you think will happen?

 

It was not what do you hope will happen? To answer it you have to logically walk through the possible events starting from 11 December and all the various permutations. So where will we end up, and why do you believe that?

 

 

 

[tebee]

23 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

like the 350 mil for the NHS.....

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

why you leave TM out?

 

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

like the 350 mil for the NHS.....

In all seriousness that is exactly what Johnson did, and he doubled down the lie when he was confronted by the facts by various journalists. The UK never ever sent £350m per week to the EU, that was simply not true. Even if you did not believe the NHS part or viewed it as an option, but not a promise. 

 

Trump uses the same tactics ... lie, then when confronted with the facts, double down on it.

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

why you leave TM out?

 

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

 

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

That's what Trump and Boris Johnson appear to also believe.

why you leave TM out?

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

In all seriousness that is exactly what Johnson did, and he doubled down the lie when he was confronted by the facts by various journalists. The UK never ever sent £350m per week to the EU, that was simply not true. Even if you did not believe the NHS part or viewed it as an option, but not a promise. 

 

Trump uses the same tactics ... lie, then when confronted with the facts, double down on it.

TM repeated it in parliament yesterday as did Hammond this morning - yet people say they never believed it...

[melvinmelvin]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

In all seriousness that is exactly what Johnson did, and he doubled down the lie when he was confronted by the facts by various journalists. The UK never ever sent £350m per week to the EU, that was simply not true. Even if you did not believe the NHS part or viewed it as an option, but not a promise. 

 

Trump uses the same tactics ... lie, then when confronted with the facts, double down on it.

and it works kinda ok in the US,

so far Trump has been doing reasonably well ever since he launched his campaign

 

people are suckers for being duped

 

[melvinmelvin]

question re deal

 

what are UK bookies saying re the chances for the deal to fly in parliament?

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

ECJ and A50,

 

have they concluded re the possibility of unilateral withdrawal?

 

 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

why you leave TM out?

 

 

I don't believe that Theresa May is remotely like Johnson or Trump. What I believe has happened is that she has started out with the best of intentions and discovered during that process that she was not in a position to deliver the Brexit that others (but not all) had hoped for. She was faced with inevitable compromises.

 

The EU stuck together in the negotiations, no one country broke ranks. They held firm on their four principals, and it simply wasn't possible to break them. She tried, I'll give her credit for that. The argument that you can walk away in a negotiation is correct, but in this particular negotiation she would not be going back to the same place, she would be going back to a no deal off a cliff Brexit. She recognised how damaging that would be, it was never really an option ... because no deal is the worst deal of all. And despite what people claim on here if you damage your economy you usher in Corbyn. And he would be worse than Brexit.

 

I think that is why, despite the ton of criticism, the public are a great deal more supportive of her. 

 

 

 

[tebee]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ECJ and A50,

 

have they concluded re the possibility of unilateral withdrawal?

 

 

Verdict due Dec 4th