UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

There were many many instances of Brexiteers admitting that in the transition phase as we exit the EU and in the time it takes to establish new trading agreements, there would likely be an economic downturn and bumps in the road to be navigated. If you think that the voting population isn't capable of extrapolating from that sort of comment, that they could take a financial hit in the short term, well then I'd say you are calling them a bit dim.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Really? Many instances. I did a google search starting with "Brexiters admit problems after Brexit".  I limited the search to the time before the actual Brexit referendum. I found no evidence of any such warnings.  Then for "Brexiters" I started to substitute prominent names like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage.  Still no hits. I did find Johnson claiming that there was no economic downside to Breixt.  So which Brexiter was it who warned about the possible rough patches after Brexit?

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Of course not, it was you that wrote

 "Austerity is a separate issue and it resulted directly from the 2008 global financial crisis,"

 

and I wrote 

"It is a false assumption to say austerity was a direct result of the financial crisis."

 

Now show me what misquote you are complaining about.

This is what I wrote: 

 

"Austerity measures were taken directly after the financial crisis and before the referendum was even a real possibility, so of course it is a separate issue".

 

The word result was not included in my post but it was in yours. Austerity was the pet of Cameron/Osborne after they got in, in 2010, after the high debt/borrowing incurred by previous Labour gov (especially Gordon Brown 2007-2010). The financial crisis in the US, caused by debt, spread to most of Europe and obviously was another big factor. Whatever, the UK austerity policy was commenced way before the EU referendum was announced and the result was known.   

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

You're misquoting what he meant, not what he wrote.  Next time, use telepathy.

And you managed to get both wrong. Well done.

[bristolboy]

36 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And you managed to get both wrong. Well done.

Post #2362.

Here is your entry quoted in its entirety:

"A non-argument. Austerity is a separate issue and it resulted directly from the 2008 global financial crisis, which was triggered in the US. If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was. No way to know for sure but the Swiss and Australians did well enough through the mess. "

Not only did you write it but there's so much in it that's highly questionable or vague.

 

You say the financial crisis was triggered in the US. Does that mean the US is responsible for it? If it hadn't happened it wouldn't have happened in the EU?  Or merely that it happened there first? If so, why is that relevant?

 

And I love the vagueness of this sentence "If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was" You're taking quite a bold stand there. "might well have been less". In fact, the UK was absolved of any responsibility for bailing out the various Eurozone economies. Given the wretched states of the UK's own banking system,thanks to the low quality loans and  financial shenanigans of various UK banks and other financial institutions,  that was fortunate indeed. I do remember the UK trying get the Icelandic government to take financial responsibility for the bad loans of its private banks and so indemnify the UK citizens for losses there. This is siimilar to what the EU successfully got away with in Ireland and Spain. The UK failed in its attempted emulation. 

 

As for Switzerland and Australia doing better, (and you could include Canada as well), do you think that might just possibly be due to the stricter regulations they impose on banking? The UK banking system was being run like a casino, except the owners were also the punters. Come to think of it, casinos are probably more tightly regulated and certainly better managed than were many of the largest financial institutions in the UK.

Edited September 12, 2018 by bristolboy

[dunroaming]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

There were many many instances of Brexiteers admitting that in the transition phase as we exit the EU and in the time it takes to establish new trading agreements, there would likely be an economic downturn and bumps in the road to be navigated. If you think that the voting population isn't capable of extrapolating from that sort of comment, that they could take a financial hit in the short term, well then I'd say you are calling them a bit dim.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I think it would fairer to say that people voted in good faith but based on information that was untrue.  You cannot blame them for that.  The blame surely lies with those who misled them.

 

It is not a matter of being a bit dim but the people should be angrier about how they were conned and I don't understand why they are not.

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Post #2362.

Here is your entry quoted in its entirety:

"A non-argument. Austerity is a separate issue and it resulted directly from the 2008 global financial crisis, which was triggered in the US. If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was. No way to know for sure but the Swiss and Australians did well enough through the mess. "

Not only did you write it but there's so much in it that's highly questionable or vague.

 

You say the financial crisis was triggered in the US. Does that mean the US is responsible for it? If it hadn't happened it wouldn't have happened in the EU?  Or merely that it happened there first? If so, why is that relevant?

 

And I love the vagueness of this sentence "If we had not been a member of the EU at that time the effect on the UK, as a fully independent nation, might well have been less than it was" You're taking quite a bold stand there. "might well have been less". In fact, the UK was absolved of any responsibility for bailing out the various Eurozone economies. Given the wretched states of the UK's own banking system,thanks to the low quality loans and  financial shenanigans of various UK banks and other financial institutions,  that was fortunate indeed. I do remember the UK trying get the Icelandic government to take financial responsibility for the bad loans of its private banks and so indemnify the UK citizens for losses there. This is siimilar to what the EU successfully got away with in Ireland and Spain. The UK failed in its attempted emulation. 

 

As for Switzerland and Australia doing better, (and you could include Canada as well), do you think that might just possibly be due to the stricter regulations they impose on banking? The UK banking system was being run like a casino, except the owners were also the punters. Come to think of it, casinos are probably more tightly regulated and certainly better managed than were many of the largest financial institutions in the UK.

The misquote was directly from displayed post 2368, not 2362. Goodbye again. 

[bristolboy]

On 9/11/2018 at 5:37 PM, nauseus said:

Brexit is a condition preferred by the majority of the people as confirmed by the referendum result. It is obviously not a condition that was preferred or even anticipated by the previous government and which is also evidently not preferred by this government either. Austerity was a measure to combat debt, which was the main driver of the financial crisis and I think that it was a necessary evil. Austerity measures were taken directly after the financial crisis and before the referendum was even a real possibility, so of course it is a separate issue.

Austerity huh? Is that what you call cutting taxes on the wealthy? Which is what the Tories did. In fact, what saved the UK was that it gave up quite rapidly on its goal of balancing budgets.ty. But you know who did succeed in imposing it? The Eurozone. Hence its wretchedly slow recovery from the recession. The worst thing you can do in a financial recession is to slash spending. If you look at the nations that recovered the quickest from the recession the US set the pace because the Obama administration passed a stimulus program. It should have been bigger but it was enough.  As Keynes once wrote more or less, The time to spend is in the bust. The time to save in the boom.

[rixalex]

Really? Many instances. I did a google search starting with "Brexiters admit problems after Brexit".  I limited the search to the time before the actual Brexit referendum. I found no evidence of any such warnings.  Then for "Brexiters" I started to substitute prominent names like Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nigel Farage.  Still no hits. I did find Johnson claiming that there was no economic downside to Breixt.  So which Brexiter was it who warned about the possible rough patches after Brexit?

If you followed Brexit as closely then as you appear to now, you'll remember that every time an interviewer put someone like Gove or Farage on the spot with a question like "so are you saying they'll be no financial downturn whatsoever resulting from Brexit?", the answer was also, "no, I'm not saying that, there will be challenges to be faced as we leave, but they'll be offset down the road by benefits", or words to that effect. I don't know how it's possible to Google search for comments made in 10 minute or so long tv interviews unless they've subsequently been published. Anyway, it's up to you whether or not you want to accurately recall what was said.

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[rixalex]

I think it would fairer to say that people voted in good faith but based on information that was untrue.  You cannot blame them for that.  The blame surely lies with those who misled them.
 
It is not a matter of being a bit dim but the people should be angrier about how they were conned and I don't understand why they are not.

There was a fair share of lies, exaggerations and mistruths from both sides, just as happens in general elections. The number of people naive enough to swallow whole everything they are being whole I would suggest is very small.

How would you react to someone saying to you that they were outraged on behalf of you at how you were tricked into voting the way you did? I'm guessing your reaction might be, "thanks for the concern but I'm capable of deciding for myself if I was tricked and can express outrage on behalf of myself without your help".

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[bristolboy]

13 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If you followed Brexit as closely then as you appear to now, you'll remember that every time an interviewer put someone like Gove or Farage on the spot with a question like "so are you saying they'll be no financial downturn whatsoever resulting from Brexit?", the answer was also, "no, I'm not saying that, there will be challenges to be faced as we leave, but they'll be offset down the road by benefits", or words to that effect. I don't know how it's possible to Google search for comments made in 10 minute or so long tv interviews unless they've subsequently been published. Anyway, it's up to you whether or not you want to accurately recall what was said.

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And not once in print? Do you realize how statistically unlikely that is? Massively unlikely.

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

There was a fair share of lies, exaggerations and mistruths from both sides, just as happens in general elections. The number of people naive enough to swallow whole everything they are being whole I would suggest is very small.

How would you react to someone saying to you that they were outraged on behalf of you at how you were tricked into voting the way you did? I'm guessing your reaction might be, "thanks for the concern but I'm capable of deciding for myself if I was tricked and can express outrage on behalf of myself without your help".

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You say there were lies on both sides and that is true.  The difference was that to vote remain you were voting for no change.  You knew what you had and as flawed as the EU is the choice was to stay in and fight for change or leave and hope the promises being made by the Brexit boys.  I certainly wobbled in my commitment to stay in and thought long and hard before voting.  But who would trust people like Johnson or Farage to play a straight bat?  Not me for sure.  But likewise I didn't trust Cameron either.

 

However, unlike you, I think we were all naïve over the referendum.  The remainers naïve in thinking that the vote would definitely go their way and so not bothering getting out of their armchairs and actually voting and the leavers for understandably believing that the rhetoric sounded like the answer to the NHS woes and much more.  I don't blame the leave voters for voting that way, I find it disappointing that they have just rolled over and accepted they have been shafted without fighting back.

[kwilco]

another warning from "project far"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/11/brexit-tens-of-thousands-of-jobs-at-risk-jaguar-land-rover-boss-tells-pm

 

Yet another respond warning by ex[perts that Quitlings dismiss with cliches and dogma.

 

Brexit has done no damage, apart from a 1/3 of British firms have lost business due to Brexit..

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-economy-damage-business-eu-manufacturing-international-trade-a8531211.html

Edited September 12, 2018 by kwilco

[kwilco]

53 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And not once in print? Do you realize how statistically unlikely that is? Massively unlikely.

If you think it's not in print, then my guess is you can't read.

[kwilco]

another Quitling assertion - Nobody's leaving and Brexit isn't doing any damage......

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jpmorgan-brexit-plans-job-move-london-eu-luxembourg-no-deal-a8532691.html

 

 

[kwilco]

It's taken 50 years, but even the Cadbury's flake girl has stopped eating and is sitting up and taking notice .....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/11/cadbury-hard-brexit-mondelez-uk-prices?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

[bristolboy]

17 minutes ago, kwilco said:

If you think it's not in print, then my guess is you can't read.

I did a search. I could find not one citation of brexit leaders warning of problems post-brexit. I'm not saying it's not out there, but it is difficult to find.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Austerity huh? Is that what you call cutting taxes on the wealthy? Which is what the Tories did. In fact, what saved the UK was that it gave up quite rapidly on its goal of balancing budgets.ty. But you know who did succeed in imposing it? The Eurozone. Hence its wretchedly slow recovery from the recession. The worst thing you can do in a financial recession is to slash spending. If you look at the nations that recovered the quickest from the recession the US set the pace because the Obama administration passed a stimulus program. It should have been bigger but it was enough.  As Keynes once wrote more or less, The time to spend is in the bust. The time to save in the boom.

Keynes, oh the man with the can, lives down the road man.

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Keynes, oh the man with the can, lives down the road man.

Now I understand why you're for an admirer of Eurozone economic policy.. 

[nauseus]

55 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

You say there were lies on both sides and that is true.  The difference was that to vote remain you were voting for no change.  You knew what you had and as flawed as the EU is the choice was to stay in and fight for change or leave and hope the promises being made by the Brexit boys.  I certainly wobbled in my commitment to stay in and thought long and hard before voting.  But who would trust people like Johnson or Farage to play a straight bat?  Not me for sure.  But likewise I didn't trust Cameron either.

 

However, unlike you, I think we were all naïve over the referendum.  The remainers naïve in thinking that the vote would definitely go their way and so not bothering getting out of their armchairs and actually voting and the leavers for understandably believing that the rhetoric sounded like the answer to the NHS woes and much more.  I don't blame the leave voters for voting that way, I find it disappointing that they have just rolled over and accepted they have been shafted without fighting back.

Would you blame them if you knew that they did not actually believe the NHS and similar rhetoric?

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

Now I understand why you're for an admirer of Eurozone economic policy.. 

Come on, why would you say a thing like that? 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Come on, why would you say a thing like that? 

Just possibly because you think austerity is the best response to a financial recession.

[nauseus]

Just now, bristolboy said:

Just possibly because you think austerity is the best response to a financial recession.

You were on about my admiration of the Eurozone policy, which is a joke. 

[bristolboy]

Just now, nauseus said:

You were on about my admiration of the Eurozone policy, which is a joke. 

The Eurozone pursued a course of strict austerity in the face of the recession. Which is what you advocate: "Austerity was a measure to combat debt, which was the main driver of the financial crisis and I think that it was a necessary evil. "

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The Eurozone pursued a course of strict austerity in the face of the recession. Which is what you advocate: "Austerity was a measure to combat debt, which was the main driver of the financial crisis and I think that it was a necessary evil. "

That comment was w.r.t. UK, not Eurozone. You are confused. 

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

That comment was w.r.t. UK, not Eurozone. You are confused. 

So austerity was a good idea for the UK but not for the Eurozone? So is it the UK that's a special case or is it the Eurozone?I don't think I'm the one who's confused. 

[soleddy]

Just get the hell out of it before we have to bail out more Greeks and allow more Somalians to get da dole.

 

Once we start making our own laws and our own trade you will see the pound grow stronger.

 

With the increase of Trumpism/Populism we might do well to remember how Mussolini started out. Hungary, Germany and even dear sexy Sweden are slowly imploding.

 

We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. Farage, Boris and co. deserve medals for gallantry in the face of a scheming Brussels which nicks more than it gives and even tries to tell us that bananas cannot be too bendy, while it is bailing out all of Southern Europe with our money. A few years ago, I lived in Spain---a lovely country which has vast empty motorways, bridges, apartment blocks and malls built from EU money (not to mention the rich men who bought the cheapest concrete in order to get richer).

 

The country has made up its mind. The moaners just remind me of kids who want to take the game back to the shop because they didn't like it after all. Sorry sonny...

 

Eddy

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

It's taken 50 years, but even the Cadbury's flake girl has stopped eating and is sitting up and taking notice .....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/11/cadbury-hard-brexit-mondelez-uk-prices?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

I'm stockpiling Digestive biscuits. No reason except I like them ?

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, soleddy said:

Just get the hell out of it before we have to bail out more Greeks and allow more Somalians to get da dole.

 

Once we start making our own laws and our own trade you will see the pound grow stronger.

 

With the increase of Trumpism/Populism we might do well to remember how Mussolini started out. Hungary, Germany and even dear sexy Sweden are slowly imploding.

 

We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. Farage, Boris and co. deserve medals for gallantry in the face of a scheming Brussels which nicks more than it gives and even tries to tell us that bananas cannot be too bendy, while it is bailing out all of Southern Europe with our money. A few years ago, I lived in Spain---a lovely country which has vast empty motorways, bridges, apartment blocks and malls built from EU money (not to mention the rich men who bought the cheapest concrete in order to get richer).

 

The country has made up its mind. The moaners just remind me of kids who want to take the game back to the shop because they didn't like it after all. Sorry sonny...

 

Eddy

 

 

Nurse! Nurse!

 

Eddy's out of bed again!

[bristolboy]

7 minutes ago, soleddy said:

Just get the hell out of it before we have to bail out more Greeks and allow more Somalians to get da dole.

 

Once we start making our own laws and our own trade you will see the pound grow stronger.

 

With the increase of Trumpism/Populism we might do well to remember how Mussolini started out. Hungary, Germany and even dear sexy Sweden are slowly imploding.

 

We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. Farage, Boris and co. deserve medals for gallantry in the face of a scheming Brussels which nicks more than it gives and even tries to tell us that bananas cannot be too bendy, while it is bailing out all of Southern Europe with our money. A few years ago, I lived in Spain---a lovely country which has vast empty motorways, bridges, apartment blocks and malls built from EU money (not to mention the rich men who bought the cheapest concrete in order to get richer).

 

The country has made up its mind. The moaners just remind me of kids who want to take the game back to the shop because they didn't like it after all. Sorry sonny...

 

Eddy

 

 

"We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. "

When politicians say stuff like this they get laughed at.

[adammike]

5 hours ago, bristolboy said:

"We have the brains and the spirit to have once ruled over half the globe. Now we need to re-channel our native ingenuity and inventiveness and pull up the drawbridge ASAP,  or we go down the low road and not the high road. "

When politicians say stuff like this they get laughed at.

Rodney you plonk..r.