UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[transam]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

Doh indeed.

 

Of course you could have done a simple Google check and come up with this.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ailbhemalone/absolutely-mouthwatering-facts-about-fish-and-chips

 

1. Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 - although their origin is contested.

 

Perhaps a little earlier (by some 50 years) than the date that you claim.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips

 

Fish and chips is a hot dish of English origin consisting of fried battered fish and hot potato chips. It is a common take-away food and an early example of culinary fusion.[1][2] Fish and chips first appeared in the 1860s; by 1910 there were more than 25,000 fish and chip shops across the UK, and by the 1930s there were over 35,000.[2] Fish and chips are now a staple takeaway meal in numerous countries, particularly in English-speaking commonwealth countries including Australia and New Zealand.

 

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Fish-Chips/

 

Both Lancashire and London stake a claim to being the first to invent this famous meal – chips were a cheap, staple food of the industrial north whilst fried fish was introduced in London’s East End. In 1839 Charles Dickens referred to a “fried fish warehouse” in his novel, ‘Oliver Twist’.

The populace soon decided that putting fried fish and chips together was a very tasty combination and so was born our national dish of fish and chips!

The first fish and chip shop in the North of England is thought to have opened in Mossely, near Oldham, Lancashire, around 1863. Mr Lees sold fish and chips from a wooden hut in the market and later he transferred the business to a permanent shop across the road which had the following inscription in the window, “This is the first fish and chip shop in the world”.

However in London, it is said that Joseph Malin opened a fish and chip shop in Cleveland Street within the sound of Bow Bells in 1860.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2016/06/03/24-surprising-facts-about-fish-and-chips-and-how-they-helped-beat-nazis-5918974/

 

1) Fish and chips were first served together as a dish around 1860 – although their origin is contested. In London, the Malin family claims to be first, as do the Lee family in Manchester

 

7) There are currently approximately 10,500 specialist fish and chip shops in the UK ? The longest running fish and chip shop still in operation is based in Yeadon near Leeds. The shop trades under the name ‘The Oldest Fish & Chip Shop in the World’. It is believed that fish and chips have been served from the premises continually since 1865 9) There is a long tradition of funny chip shop names – our favourites are The Cod’s Scallops and mobile fish and chip shop Star Chip Enterprise 10) Fish and chips appear in Charles Dickens’ ‘A Tale Of Two Cities’

 

Doh indeed.

 

 

Let's not forget Sarsons malt vinegar...?

[tebee]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

We're back to stating predictions and speculations as facts, and telling leavers that they don't know what they are voting for, that they are incapable of thinking for themselves, and that you know better than they do.

 

It's this sort of refusal to accept that there IS a valid and rational argument for leaving, and that people arguing in that way, aren't clueless drones being brainwashed by the Eton elite, that they aren't selfish bigots out to mess up other people's lives, but people just like you, who have sat down, looked at the arguments on both sides, and just come to a different conclusion to you, that further builds the divide and increases the perception leavers have of being talked down to and ignored, that resulted in 17 million people voting in the way they did two years ago.

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Ok, here's a question for you as an experienced SME owner/manager. Farage has often said that UK SMEs that don't  trade with Europe still have to comply with a lot of EU regulations. And he proposes this as a tangible benefit of leaving. I haven't been able to find out what these regulations are, and I'm sure they must vary somewhat from industry to industry.

 

Is he right?

I think he's right. I don't know what they all are but there are plenty enough to cost UK SMEs a lot if this Telewag article (link) is correct. The majority of small UK businesses do not export to the EU but still have to carry the costs imposed by EU regulations:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11568039/Small-businesses-cant-afford-any-more-EU-meddling.html  

[billd766]

32 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I knew there was something fishy going on.

 

You must have been caught hook, line and sinker he said, with baited breath.

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

 

 

Fish n chips is a traditional Belgian dish imported to the U.K. in the aftermath of WW1.

 

Doh!

 

 

I thought it was Jewish immigrants from Portugal?

 

Stop trying to put Belgium on the map ?

[rixalex]

30 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

Again, you are presuming to know inside the mind of 17 million voters. Presuming to know why they voted the way they did. Presuming that they bought in to all of the campaign rhetoric that was being pumped out from both sides. Presuming they weren't smart enough to have figured out that leaving was short term more likely to bring with it economic and political problems, than staying, but that the long term benefits would make it worth it. Presuming they didn't know that the 350 million for the NHS was dependent on a number of factors. A lot of presuming in short, with the general theme of you are smarter than them. They should all believe you. A man living and working in France, and whose family and work is closely tied in with being a member of the EU. No vested interests there then. A completely objective and unbiased viewpoint.

 

You cast doubt on whether those leading Brexit really care about those who voted Brexit, and you may well be right, they all seem pretty hopeless, but are we really expected to believe you have their interests in mind either? Certainty doesn't sound like it. Just another one who thinks they know better.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by rixalex

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

I think you are wrong:

 

⛔ Farage didn't go to Eton or any university. Upper middle class maybe? Do you think that Cameron is not a toff?  Farage will now benefit from Brexit, I am sure, mainly because of the publicity there is now. At least his viewpoint and aims have been consistent over 20 years or so.

 

⛔ Most leave voters were already self-convinced to vote out before Farage got much hearing. 

 

⛔ There were no official promises from the leave side - different people in the various leave campaigns said various things - the NHS ad on the side of the bus has been taken seriously as a promise by far more remainers than leavers (after the fact) as a convenience and main argument in their continual rantings since the referendum.

 

⛔ Nobody knew who would have the power to deliver on through any "promises" post Brexit anyway. The general "promise" of the Brexit campaigns was to "take back control", which is something that can actually be realised now. The important question will be how will that control be used? The answer may depend on the nature, scope and any residual EU restrictions of an exit deal with the EU, if they manage to come up with anything. I think they will. I think both sides know they have to.

 

= - = 

 

I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about their own personal difficulties due to Brexit and then return to unfairly describing leavers a "con victims" within hours. Your own situation is partly due to the fact that you chose to leave the UK but still want to sell goods there. That was your own choice and you have to deal with it, like I have to deal with my choice. Talk about cherry-picking!

 

 

[nauseus]

22 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

You must have been caught hook, line and sinker he said, with baited breath.

Groan ?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

50 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

Whereas the EU is the ultimate proletariat utopia, devoid of faceless fat cats who have never benefited one iota / reaped the financial rewards of the progression of this forced political, financial and customs union. 

 

As I stated some time ago in a previous post:

 

'When Germany agreed to shed the Dmark and adopt the Euro under ECB/EP/EC suggestion, it was a quid pro quo for not issuing centralised debt. In other words all debt issuance has been made through sovereign entities rather than the EU/ECB; so there is no intention of sharing deficits at a "federal"level. That is why the ECB is now buying in sovereign and corporate bonds from individual countries in order to provide liquidity.'

 

So anyone who believes that the EEA/EU is in any way for the people by the people is simply living in a fantasy land or being willfully disingenuous and deluding themselves. Not to mention the myriad of other criminal and wholly undemocratic behaviour that the federation engages in AND the issue of the lack of sovereignty / control of our own country's affairs at a fundamental level while we remain part of it - which is, in my (and many others') opinion, the real crux of the matter. In 25 years time we will look back at all this and see it for what it is, a lucky escape.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

"Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs"

 

Do you really believe that those who voted for brexit are "toffs"?  But I understand your point to a certain extent.

 

"the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered."

 

Yes, this seems more than likely....

 

Can't be bothered to respond to the rest of your post - other than agreeing that either way, there's little doubt that the wealthy will continue to thrive.

 

The more important (IMO) question, is whether those at the bottom of the pyramid will be helped by the prevention of cheap labour from poor eu countries.

[CG1 Blue]

15 hours ago, tebee said:

On a personal level, my Thai stepson, who is a doctor was intending to do his specialist studies in the UK , he has now decided to go to Germany instead as we have no idea if a British qualification will still be recognized in the rest of Europe.

You talk some sense, and then you go and spoil it all by writing this type of nonsense.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that qualifications gained in the UK will no longer be valid in other countries after Brexit is ridiculous. 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

toffs ok,

 

but also an awful lot of blue collar guys

 

and lots of dream on people with a vision of ruling ripples on the oceans

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

8 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You talk some sense, and then you go and spoil it all by writing this type of nonsense.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that qualifications gained in the UK will no longer be valid in other countries after Brexit is ridiculous. 

Precisely. Hailing from the city that's home to the second oldest university in the English speaking world or 'third oldest in the world' and consistently ranked in the top 3 in terms of prestige and acclaim and responsible for graduating some of THE most eminent minds in all history, in multiple fields - this kind of frivolous remark really gets my goat, and seems to be so predictably typical of the mindset of so many misinformed people (who tend to be staunch Europhiles). Aren't we aware that before the EU existed, the UK never did anything of any worth!?!? ? 

Edited September 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

 

Well the brexiters on the whole are toffs - Much as he likes to play man at the pub, Farage, for instance, is an former commodities broker.

 

What the Brexiters have done is a classic bate and switch con - the brexit that was promised is not the one that is going to be delivered. 

 

Like most con victims, leavers are either too embarrassed to admit this or  cognitive dissonance prevents them from seeing that they have been conned - the brexit that is coming will benefit a few rich people and no one else. No one is prepared to step up and say - 

 

This is not my beautiful Brexit 

 

This is not my large 350 million £ for the NHS.... 

 

 

You haven't grasped the real reasons why the majority of UK citizens don't want to be in the EU. Don't lower yourself to insulting leave voters just because you fail to understand.

[dunroaming]

Well as time begins to run out the different parties have to grasp the metal.  The EU are certainly softening their approach towards May.  There are still the three possible playouts although it seems like two.  A soft Brexit or no deal.  Both would be a failure but we all know that.  A soft Brexit would still mean free movement of people and abiding (to a great extent) to EU laws and regulations.  Apart from that we have the large pay out and no seat at the table.  Still the EU would still love us and trade could continue without crippling tariffs.  The no deal would be economic disaster and the probability of the EU side lining us when it comes to trade. The full extent of the fallout from a no deal would only be known after we crashed out.  

 

Is there some middle ground?  Is there some deal that would suit both the UK and the EU?  More to the point was there ever a chance of a positive result for Britain through Brexit?  

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

The no deal would be economic disaster and the probability of the EU side lining us when it comes to trade.

That's like saying McDonalds would 'sideline' lard-a**es. We're their #1 export market in the world! C'mooooooon! Don't get it twisted, they need us more than we need them.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[sandyf]

Those that wish to promote the project fear propaganda should be looking a lot closer to home. The greatest hawkers of project fear are those that talk about "no deal" and "walking away".

The leavers prefer to ignore the fact that threats are employed by the "bullyboy" mentality with the sole intention of creating fear. They have some misguided notion that threats are a superior way to negotiate.

[dunroaming]

21 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

That's like saying McDonalds would 'sideline' lard-a**es. We're their #1 export market in the world! C'mooooooon! Don't get it twisted, they need us more than we need them.

Fair point.  So what are the positives you see from Brexit that are actually going to be delivered?

[melvinmelvin]

Boring you with some personal observations;

 

Coming from Norway; we have had a weird relationship to EEC/EU from the very start.

Norwegian governments have tried 4 times to become a member, all tries by the Labour party.

 

We wanted in on the very start, the others laughed and showed us the door, at the time Norway was a piss poor country

with very shaky industry, but we had salmon and electrical power in abundance.

We then took the initiative and became one of the founding fathers of EFTA. (also VERY controversial in Norway)

 

Then again in the late 60s, with the UK and a couple of others. The French general didna want UK in EEC,

he didn't have the guts to say yes to Norway and no to the UK - so he said no to expansion at that stage.

 

Then, the early 70s; referendum, marginal majority for no, very marginal. No political problems, assembly followed course and

discontinued contact with EEC.

The discussions in MSM and pubs and on the streets, pretty much what you experience in the UK now.

The toffs and the industry predicted that now the land of the Vikings was headed for the dungeons.

But, then we became sheiks and oilers.

 

And, then again, the early 90s; new referendum, conclusion NO.

A personal friend of mine was chair of the NO-campaign. He very strongly believed that the Maastricht treaty would hurt

the Nordic style of governing the society. 

(Very bright thinker and speaker - crystal clear, professor in computer science - the father of object-oriented programming.) 

 

 

Maybe 4-5 years after the ref in the 70s the largest newspaper in Norway did a big job of interviewing (in depth) the toffs

and the industry and finance leaders.

In general, they couldn't care less whether we were a member or not, didna really want to discuss it.

 

 

 

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Ok, here's a question for you as an experienced SME owner/manager. Farage has often said that UK SMEs that don't  trade with Europe still have to comply with a lot of EU regulations. And he proposes this as a tangible benefit of leaving. I haven't been able to find out what these regulations are, and I'm sure they must vary somewhat from industry to industry.

 

Is he right?

One of the regulations in question is CE marking. As an EU member state all goods subject to CE marking must be identified as such before being sold within the UK.

Farage and many like him are trying to drum up support from some manufacturers by implying that the UK once out of the EU can lessen/remove the requirement for these regulations.

 

"Is he right?" - of course not. Who in there right mind would want a return to the bad old days of unreliable and potentially lethal product being sold.

There is a very good reason why the EU have not done a trade deal with China.

[welovesundaysatspace]

52 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You talk some sense, and then you go and spoil it all by writing this type of nonsense.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that qualifications gained in the UK will no longer be valid in other countries after Brexit is ridiculous. 

Huh? Why is this nonsense of ridiculous? Do you really believe a doctor can just practice wherever he wants to, because his degree is being equally recognized everywhere? I am too lazy to google the actual regulations now, but what I can tell you is that a Thai girl that I used to date who is a doctor at a big hospital here in Bangkok, had exactly the same issue when her western boyfriend asked her to just move to Europe with him. In his mind, it was all going to be super easy. Turns out she cannot just take her degree and practice in Europe. 

[tebee]

36 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You talk some sense, and then you go and spoil it all by writing this type of nonsense.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that qualifications gained in the UK will no longer be valid in other countries after Brexit is ridiculous. 

It's only since the EU made mutual recognition of professional qualifications under Directive 2005/36/EC compulsory it's been possible to work throughout Europe without having to re-sit exams or having your qualifications re-evaluated by the governing body in the country  you want to work in. This takes time and costs money. 

 

Post-brexit the UK will be a third party country that equivalence terminated and UK  qualifications will have to be reevaluated. 

 

See https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/professional_qualifications_en.pdf

 

So my stepson wants to be a surgeon. If he qualifies in the UK, but then wants to work in Germany he first has to pass the German Approbation test, to see has the right level of knowledge to be allowed to work as a general doctor on patients.  To get his speciality recognized   he has to submit full details of all the work he did and test scores to the surgical guild in the German state he wants to work in and they will decide if the curriculum is equivalent to what he would have done to get the same  qualification in Germany. If not he has to do remedial work at a German teaching hospital before he can qualify. The whole process can take upto 2 years and cost several thousand Euros.

 

If however, he does his speciality training in Germany, he is allowed to work in any other EU country at the same level by simply applying. 

 

It's things like this that the brexiters don't seem to realize. 

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Huh? Why is this nonsense of ridiculous? Do you really believe a doctor can just practice wherever he wants to, because his degree is being equally recognized everywhere? I am too lazy to google the actual regulations now, but what I can tell you is that a Thai girl that I used to date who is a doctor at a big hospital here in Bangkok, had exactly the same issue when her western boyfriend asked her to just move to Europe with him. In his mind, it was all going to be super easy. Turns out she cannot just take her degree and practice in Europe. 

It is true that many of degrees achieved through Thai universities are not recognised as an actual qualification in some western countries.  Been going through it with a niece of my wife's.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

24 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Fair point.  So what are the positives you see from Brexit that are actually going to be delivered?

Supposing that we get some kind of 'actual Brexit', as in - something resembling what the 17.4 million people voted for in the UK in 2016:

 

Control of our own borders back

Full sovereignty: - ability to control 100% our own affairs from Westminster; legislate and amend policy without ratification from Brussels/Strasbourg etc.

Ability to make our own trade deals and look to the wider world for new opportunity and business partners

With a little luck return some vigour and confidence to the country, if the internal divisions can be addressed and healed. That will take time and a measure of success before it will happen.

Reduced prices on goods and services like food and fuel (bills) etc.

The ability to look beyond the EU and level the playing field - i.e.: not discriminate against companies/businesses & individuals from outside the bloc - e.g.: the Anglosphere and BRICS countries 

Reinvigorate a number of industries in the UK, firstly by eschewing the CAP, CFP among others, allowing the associated industries to hopefully prosper once more

Redress wage suppression by curtailing the unskilled labour surplus brought about by mass immigration from less developed EU nations

 

there are other reasons I could give, but my time is limited right now, plus I have mentioned them in previous posts.

 

and finally,

 

Perhaps hasten the disintegration of the EEA/EU and allow a course of self determination to become a reality for sovereign nation states, should that be the wish of the majority of their publics.

 

I think sensible people would agree it would be in our interest as a continent in the long run.

 

These are my opinions, but they are based on fact. I'm not saying everything mentioned above will happen overnight or that it will even necessarily ALL happen, but I am certain that the things listed above only have a chance of happening once we disconnect from the EU/EEA. Feel free to disagree.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[tebee]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Huh? Why is this nonsense of ridiculous? Do you really believe a doctor can just practice wherever he wants to, because his degree is being equally recognized everywhere? I am too lazy to google the actual regulations now, but what I can tell you is that a Thai girl that I used to date who is a doctor at a big hospital here in Bangkok, had exactly the same issue when her western boyfriend asked her to just move to Europe with him. In his mind, it was all going to be super easy. Turns out she cannot just take her degree and practice in Europe. 

 

3 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

It is true that many of degrees achieved through Thai universities are not recognised as an actual qualification in some western countries.  Been going through it with a niece of my wife's.

We specifically looked at doing his surgical specialty in Thailand. - this is after 6 years at medical school  and 2 years working as a junior doctor in hospital. In Thailand the specialty training  3 years - and you have to pay tuition fees. in Germany and the UK it is 5 or 6 years training before you can become a surgical specialist There is absolutely no way that is going to be going to be considered equivalent.

 

Added to which there are no tuition fees in most of western Europe  Added to which you get paid roughly €5,000 a month in Germany whille you train. Simmerl rate in the UK, though you work a lot more overtime for your money there   

[dunroaming]

3 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Supposing that we get some kind of 'actual Brexit', as in - something resembling what the 17.4 million people voted for in the UK in 2016:

 

Control of our own borders back

Full sovereignty: - ability to control 100% our own affairs from Westminster; legislate and amend policy without ratification from Brussels/Strasbourg etc.

Ability to make our own trade deals and look to the wider world for new opportunity and business partners

With a little luck return some vigour and confidence to the country, if the internal divisions can be addressed and healed. That will take time and a measure of success before it will happen.

Reduced prices on goods and services like food and fuel (bills) etc.

The ability to look beyond the EU and level the playing field - i.e.: not discriminate against companies/businesses & individuals from outside the bloc - e.g.: the Anglosphere and BRICS countries 

Reinvigorate a number of industries in the UK, firstly by eschewing the CAP, CFP among others, allowing the associated industries to hopefully prosper once more

Remove wage suppression curtailing the unskilled labour surplus brought about by mass immigration from less developed EU nations

 

there are other reasons I could give, but my time is limited right now, plus I have mentioned them in previous posts.

 

and finally,

 

Perhaps hasten the disintegration of the EEA/EU and allow a course of self determination to become a reality for sovereign nation states, should that be the wish of the majority of their publics. I think sensible people would agree it would be in our interest as a continent in the long run. These are my opinions, but they are based on fact. Feel free to disagree.

 

Cheers.

 

I agree that that is the "wish list" and I am sure that would have been your motivation for voting leave.  And of course that is what you and most other people believed when they voted to leave.  I agree with much of the sentiment there.

 

But that is not my question. what, out of your wish list,  do you believe can be delivered given the false premise the people were given at the time?

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

You talk some sense, and then you go and spoil it all by writing this type of nonsense.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that qualifications gained in the UK will no longer be valid in other countries after Brexit is ridiculous. 

Not to be dismissed in that manner. Medical qualifications are a minefield and the requirements on being able to practise medicine vary from country to country. It would be prudent for anyone to take steps to avoid any problem over recognition.

On leaving the EEA the UK will have to establish recognition in its own right, probably a formality, but for Europe it would mean a reciprocal deal with the EU.

Just another in the mountain of deals that will need to be struck.

[melvinmelvin]

22 minutes ago, tebee said:

It's only since the EU made mutual recognition of professional qualifications under Directive 2005/36/EC compulsory it's been possible to work throughout Europe without having to re-sit exams or having your qualifications re-evaluated by the governing body in the country  you want to work in. This takes time and costs money. 

 

Post-brexit the UK will be a third party country that equivalence terminated and UK  qualifications will have to be reevaluated. 

 

See https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/professional_qualifications_en.pdf

 

So my stepson wants to be a surgeon. If he qualifies in the UK, but then wants to work in Germany he first has to pass the German Approbation test, to see has the right level of knowledge to be allowed to work as a general doctor on patients.  To get his speciality recognized   he has to submit full details of all the work he did and test scores to the surgical guild in the German state he wants to work in and they will decide if the curriculum is equivalent to what he would have done to get the same  qualification in Germany. If not he has to do remedial work at a German teaching hospital before he can qualify. The whole process can take upto 2 years and cost several thousand Euros.

 

If however, he does his speciality training in Germany, he is allowed to work in any other EU country at the same level by simply applying. 

 

It's things like this that the brexiters don't seem to realize. 

 

tebee,

this is normal stuff, nothing weird here. in particular when it comes to physicians.

if he want to work in Germany he MUST know

the local social medicine

[melvinmelvin]

More boring stuff:

 

It appears that a bunch of you guys find it weird that none UKers follow this thread and even dare to write in it.

Well, threads are for all, even me.

I'm not from the UK, but I enjoy my Belhaven and did my first degree there, on the foggy islands.

So I feel very free to bore you as much as I like.

 

Anyway:

 

Why do people vote/want to leave?

There is a multitude of reasons I think.

 

Toffs, the economy doesn't matter to them, they have dosh enough regardless.

Germany/Merkel haters, weird bunch, but OK.

The barstool kings; let GB be great again.

------------------------------; there are waves to be ruled

Muslim haters and immigrant/border control fantasts

Those who believe EU is genuinely crap

 

And then you also have some other bands,

those who strongly believe that stipulations affecting UK people and society and business should be made

on the foggy islands exclusively and not in Brussels

those who want border crossing control

those who are strong believers in sovereignty that EU does not offer

 

I find that last paragraph containing a set of very acceptable reasons for leaving,

clearly, some leavers are prepared to pay for the privilege.

 

In my view that is not daft, but indeed respectable.

They pay for what they want.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

10 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I agree that that is the "wish list" and I am sure that would have been your motivation for voting leave.  And of course that is what you and most other people believed when they voted to leave.  I agree with much of the sentiment there.

 

But that is not my question. what, out of your wish list,  do you believe can be delivered given the false premise the people were given at the time?

Hmmm, that is a MUCH more difficult question to answer, but I realise I didn't answer it in my prior reply.

 

I wouldn't even presume to be able to answer right now to be honest, as it's such a s**t-show at the moment and there are so many variables to consider. All I would say is I think that given our relationship with the EEA/EU and our importance to them in terms of our status within their export markets / massive trade deficit and a weak GBP etc., that 'no deal' wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing, I would prefer it over this Chequers Plan rubbish. What will happen after we do actually leave, assuming we do, and that we leave the CU and SM (hard brexit style) is very a difficult question to answer and I don't have a crystal ball anymore than anyone else. I would say that -

 

Control of our own borders back

Full sovereignty: - ability to control 100% our own affairs from Westminster; legislate and amend policy without ratification from Brussels/Strasbourg etc.

Ability to make our own trade deals and look to the wider world for new opportunity and business partners

Reduced prices on goods and services like food and fuel (bills) etc.

 

are all reasonable to expect as actual outcomes, provided we have at least some proper leadership from within. As I said, I am certain that the things listed above only have a chance of happening once we disconnect from the EU/EEA, whilst we remain within it, they're mere pipe-dreams.

Edited September 18, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker