Dealing with local corruption

[sam neuts]

Good advice !!!!!
Why don't you just stick the gun to his head yourself and pull the trigger.
And that is not an exaggeration by a long way
You may of lived here for 20 years but you have obviously learn't nothing in that time 
 

You seem to think Thais are some race of crazy lunatics.

If you choose to be scared of them, that is your choice.

They are just ordinary people.

I have had a number of situations over the last 20 years but still refuse to be treated like fearful child.

I guess it depends on each individual.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Cletus said:

By your approach it seems you may be looking for troubles. I can understand your feeling but remember this is not your country and you have no rights to change things you don't like. Just follow their way or leave.

 

Generally speaking, it is amazing (obviously) to see how many foreigners believe, as the Thais do, that Thailand and its so-called special culture cannot be changed, and that anyway foreigners have "no right" to change it!

 

Well, I was there for the first time exactly 40 years ago, in August 1978, and believe me, since then Thailand has changed a lot, and foreigners have had a lot to do with these changes.

 

Actually, a significant part of crime and corruption has been the result of too many (in my opinion) foreigners arriving in Thailand with their dollars and bikinis...for example, Koh Samui and its neighboring islands were not crime infested in 1978, and there were no full moon parties, foreigners brought that, together with the associated "culture".

 

And one way or another, foreigners keep on changing Thailand with each passing day...for better and for worse...

[Media1]

7 hours ago, timendres said:

While I share your sentiment, this is a certain ticket to a miserable existence. Thai corruption is best dealt with by the Thai people, especially at local levels, and by Farang only in certain cases. Unless the OP is prepared to move, he is better advised to use a "local" approach as suggested by another poster.

He has a Thai wife. Who cares what those tribals think. Dig in son go hard. Pour concrete down there drains

[DonnyS]

15 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

So endemic is the corruption here there exists the probability that those higher up the chain, if not equally corrupt, are moreso and have no wish to draw any unnecessary attention... 

 

As such, any confrontational approach may well draw particular resistance. Playing the game the Western way, going up the chain and expecting ethics & the moral high ground to take precedence is flawed thinking.

 

Perhaps the best approach is to go local... Rather than asking someone to do their job, take a different approach....

....Bottles of whisky & ask for the favor...

 

It's not right, but it never is here. Don't get upset, just play the game. 

Bingo !

This is the smart approach . A little "Bakshish" goes a long way!

[Different]

O lord, if you can't trust your self, you wouldn't find happiness.

[Dene16]

10 hours ago, sam neuts said:

You seem to think Thais are some race of crazy lunatics.

No i do not, they are the same as any other person in a position of total control who you are threatening to send to jail.

Someone who has significant influence with the local BIB and other village heads and numerous establishments.

Whilst i admire your moral stance, to openly threaten such a person is plain stupidity. Especially if you have the option to do it anonymously.

In a certain number of circumstances nothing may happen, however because you have never experienced being on the other side of the coin you obviously believe that your option is the best.

Its easy to say nothing will change if we all roll over and except the corruption that exists, i agree, but you don't put the life of yourself and loved ones in harms way to make your point. 

Our village head just sent his daughter through oxford university in the UK (the most prestigious and expensive) how he financed that is anyone's guess because i know he has no immediate sources of income. A very nice guy on the surface but a nasty piece of work underneath when threatened (i am told).

On the up side he is very approachable which is the opposite of what the op is suffering

Not every village is the same, as someone has stated, but i would assume many are and most of the people in any village are related in one way or another. Maybe consisting of 4 or 5 families, dependant on size of village.

The bottom line is, think about what you are doing and who you are doing it to

because sometimes the consequences of your actions are not worth it

 

 

 

[jorgenweihrauch]

If you want to die - just go on

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Generally speaking, it is amazing (obviously) to see how many foreigners believe, as the Thais do, that Thailand and its so-called special culture cannot be changed, and that anyway foreigners have "no right" to change it!

 

Well, I was there for the first time exactly 40 years ago, in August 1978, and believe me, since then Thailand has changed a lot, and foreigners have had a lot to do with these changes.

 

Actually, a significant part of crime and corruption has been the result of too many (in my opinion) foreigners arriving in Thailand with their dollars and bikinis...for example, Koh Samui and its neighboring islands were not crime infested in 1978, and there were no full moon parties, foreigners brought that, together with the associated "culture".

 

And one way or another, foreigners keep on changing Thailand with each passing day...for better and for worse...

Are you at the same time assuming that western ways of doing things are perfect, are benchmark, and should always be adopted by everyone?

 

[Thaidream]

58 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Well, I was there for the first time exactly 40 years ago, in August 1978, and believe me, since then Thailand has changed a lot, and foreigners have had a lot to do with these changes.

Very few foreigners have come to Thailand and made a mark. Having first come here almost 5 decades ago- I can name only a few who have made a huge difference in Thailand economically and none who have had a positive change in the culture.

 

Thai culture has been altered and destroyed by participation in the Vietnam war which bought almost 50,000 Americans to Thailand but an even greater change was when Thailand opened up to tourists during the 80s and marketed itself. This brought millions of tourists from all over the World to Thailand and their culture which increased Thais love of money and brought Thais into direct contact with foreigners- good and bad.

 

What has never changed is the fact that you nor I will ever be accepted as Thai.  I speak Thai well; have been married to 3 different Thais and know all their families well.  One thing is evident-  Thais will always believe Thais and not foreigners. Foreigners can never fully integrate into Thai society   The village chief and Obator system has been around for 5,000 years  and corruption has existed since time began.  Do any of you really believe you are going to change any of this?  It will never, ever happen.  Oh- it can be changed but not by you and me.  Only a Thai can do so .

 

Some on this topic have offered some good suggestions as how to approach the  village chief about the potential health issue.  Anyone who recommends confrontation and even violence is ridiculous.  This isn't like the movie- Walking Tall- where the hero comes in with his big stick and kicks the butts of the local toughs and lives happily ever after.   In Thailand, the local toughs always win because there are millions of them and there is only one of you.

 

 

 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, jorgenweihrauch said:

If you want to die - just go on

Two kinds of foreigners die in Thailand:

 

1. Those who visit Koh Samui and the neighboring islands

2. Those who bungy jump without elastic from Pattaya balconies

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Are you at the same time assuming that western ways of doing things are perfect, are benchmark, and should always be adopted by everyone?

 

I can't see how you can come to such a conclusion (in the shape of a question) after reading my post, especially since I ended it with "for better and for worse".

 

I think that these words clearly answer your question...

[Brunolem]

57 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Very few foreigners have come to Thailand and made a mark. Having first come here almost 5 decades ago- I can name only a few who have made a huge difference in Thailand economically and none who have had a positive change in the culture.

 

Thai culture has been altered and destroyed by participation in the Vietnam war which bought almost 50,000 Americans to Thailand but an even greater change was when Thailand opened up to tourists during the 80s and marketed itself. This brought millions of tourists from all over the World to Thailand and their culture which increased Thais love of money and brought Thais into direct contact with foreigners- good and bad.

 

What has never changed is the fact that you nor I will ever be accepted as Thai.  I speak Thai well; have been married to 3 different Thais and know all their families well.  One thing is evident-  Thais will always believe Thais and not foreigners. Foreigners can never fully integrate into Thai society   The village chief and Obator system has been around for 5,000 years  and corruption has existed since time began.  Do any of you really believe you are going to change any of this?  It will never, ever happen.  Oh- it can be changed but not by you and me.  Only a Thai can do so .

 

It seems to me that you contradict yourself, first saying that foreigners cannot change Thai culture, then saying that this culture was destroyed by mass tourism.

 

What you mean, I guess, is that foreigners cannot change Thai culture at an individual level, but that they do it as a group, which is also what I wrote above.

 

Yet, this is not specific to Thailand...as an individual, anyone is unlikely to change anything, even in one's own country!

 

It is a mistake to believe that Thailand is a special country (Thailand not same)...it is in many respects very similar to other countries in that part of the world.

 

You mention the difficulties of integration and gaining trust with the locals, but this is far from being specific to Thailand...just try to integrate in China or Japan, for example...

 

Finally, the (totally useless) obotor have not been here for 5,000 years...they were a creation of the Thaksin government, with the first elections held in 2005...

[Rhys]

...you're in their game and they change the rules to suit their win...

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Finally, the (totally useless) obotor have not been here for 5,000 years...they were a creation of the Thaksin government, with the first elections held in 2005...

The system of Sakdina has been around Thailand since the Ayuttaya Period.  Governments just gave its representatives names and titles.  It is the  concept that does not change. The pecking order that does not change  and the way one tries to challenge it and the results does not change. You can't change it so you learn how to adjust to it and co-exist with it. Thais learn this from birth- foreigners will never learn it and how  the nuances of how it really works.

 

Other countries have their systems but we live in Thailand and I don't care what other countries do.  Since I live in Thailand, I have to adhere to Thai customs and mores. Thai people do not react well to anyone challenging them and when a foreigner does it- they can react in strange and unusual ways.  I could document several incidents when foreigners challenged Thais and the outcome has been disastrous. Some immediately-others over time.  Once loss of face occurs-and it is public- there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[worgeordie]

What about other people in your village,are they complaining?

if not,you should wonder why,and take it as a sign.

regards worgeordie

[Brunolem]

21 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

What about other people in your village,are they complaining?

if not,you should wonder why,and take it as a sign.

regards worgeordie

As I wrote above, Thais never complain about corruption, which is why they rightly deserve whatever inconvenients result from such corruption.

 

So the fact than no one complains in the village is not a sign of anything, but rather a confirmation of the total submission and resignation of the population.

 

Over time, the powers that be have done a fantastic job in brainwashing the populace into rejecting any form of criticism, especially between Thais, thus leaving the coast clear for the elites to shamelessly loot the country without any fear of repraisal.

 

At the very small scale of my village, the Phu Yai Baan just managed to "invest" a 200,000 baht budget into a useless and partial wall (only about 50 cm high) that I could easily have built for 20,000 baht.

 

When I talk with them individually, villagers realize that they have been fooled, because they know the costs of bricks and cement, but no one will ever open his mouth, not by fear of repraisal, but because they have been deprived of this ability...which is sad...

[mike324]

sounds like you live in a very small village, best that you move. You simply don't have enough residents to support your cause like in a bigger city if you want to take them on.

[Benmart]

The epidemic of corruption is resistant to traditional solutions. The Singapore of today employed a drastic medicine years ago. Look at it now. I don't want to live in Singapore, but this local illness can be cured.

[zzaa09]

8 hours ago, Brunolem said:

As I wrote above, Thais never complain about corruption, which is why they rightly deserve whatever inconvenients result from such corruption.

 

So the fact than no one complains in the village is not a sign of anything, but rather a confirmation of the total submission and resignation of the population.

 

Over time, the powers that be have done a fantastic job in brainwashing the populace into rejecting any form of criticism, especially between Thais, thus leaving the coast clear for the elites to shamelessly loot the country without any fear of repraisal.

 

At the very small scale of my village, the Phu Yai Baan just managed to "invest" a 200,000 baht budget into a useless and partial wall (only about 50 cm high) that I could easily have built for 20,000 baht.

 

When I talk with them individually, villagers realize that they have been fooled, because they know the costs of bricks and cement, but no one will ever open his mouth, not by fear of repraisal, but because they have been deprived of this ability...which is sad...

Nice of ya to use the standard broad brushing as to how such applies to "all" Thais and their homogenous character. 

 

 

[Brunolem]

13 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Nice of ya to use the standard broad brushing as to how such applies to "all" Thais and their homogenous character. 

 

 

Actually this doesn't apply to all Thais, since the elites know better and do not hesitate to criticize, even harder than foreigners do.

 

Otherwise, one can find an homogeneity in the Thai population that is quite unusual in Western populations, who are more individualistic.

 

Yet, as stated above, this is not specific to Thailand, but rather to East Asia.

 

The lattest example of Chinese mass cancellations because of one boat accident are very telling.

 

It is very unlikely that the British or German populations, for example, would have reacted in such homogeneous fashion if the accident had involved their citizens.

[geriatrickid]

Don't be discouraged by the cowards telling you to stay quiet. Report your concerns, but do it in a non accusatory fashion. Just point out the key items and be able to substantiate any statements with  substantiated facts. One of the reasons why corruption at the village level thrives is because too many people assume that nothing will get done.

It's not much different than the sexual abuse scandals that have rocked one religious group. For years, victims were intimidated into  staying quiet. However, a few brave people spoke out and then  everyone else followed.  You are not alone.  I have reported inappropriate conduct in the past and nothing happened to me. Sometimes the authorities are waiting and looking for a reason to get rid of some of these corrupt locals.

[FritsSikkink]

"So, I just summoned the village chief "

In what position do you think you are that you can summon people?

[Monomial]

On 8/25/2018 at 11:24 AM, Brunolem said:

It seems to me that you contradict yourself, first saying that foreigners cannot change Thai culture, then saying that this culture was destroyed by mass tourism.

 

What you mean, I guess, is that foreigners cannot change Thai culture at an individual level, but that they do it as a group, which is also what I wrote above.

 

 

Actually, he does not contradict himself. What he says is that foreigners can not change Thai culture for the better. It is easy, even for an individual, to change it for the worse. Just imagine a foreigner coming in, kicking butt and taking names. He will make life miserable for everyone, and probably find himself eventually dead from some "accident".

 

The issue he is referring to is Western cultural values, which do not map directly onto Thai cultural values. If you want to get along here, you have to change your value system, not the other way around. It isn't so much love of money which is the problem. That is universal. What has been a problem is the modern Western thought that greed without responsibility is fine because everyone is equal. Historically, a kind of nobility and corruption was tolerated here because everyone followed the same rules, which included responsibility to those you were lording over. But Westerners came in and decided everything should be market economies, and that it was OK to become obscenely wealthy without any need to take care of those who were under you, because they shouldn't be under you. They are "equals" and you have no responsibility to them.

 

That is the ultimate root of the problem Thailand faces today. It either needs to adopt a mostly Western value system, or a mostly traditional value system. This hybrid system today is poison.

`

 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

That is the ultimate root of the problem Thailand faces today. It either needs to adopt a mostly Western value system, or a mostly traditional value system. This hybrid system today is poison.

`

 

 

I would agree with the last sentence, and hybrid goes much further than the economy and money.

 

The religious system is also hybrid, based on Buddhism but with a high dose of shamanism, and the ubiquitous corruption...

 

More generally, the sudden introduction of Western technology in countries with vastly different cultures regularly has devastating effects.

 

There is television and mobile phones, but also cars and motorbikes, and upcountry agricultural machinery.

 

As I have witnessed firsthand, in a matter of two decades, villagers have basically stopped working and now spend their days in front of the television, while waiting for the next government handout.

 

In my area, so-called farmers don't even bother to grow the rice, their major and often only crop, in the traditional way, but instead spend half a day throwing rice grains directly in the paddyfields, then wait four months and pay for a machine to do the harvesting.

 

What in the not so distant past represented weeks of work, at the beginning and at the end of the process, is now delt with in less than a day, and the time thus freed has been used to relax in front of the TV, often together with drinking.

 

Things have been made worse with the access to credit, something unknown until not so long ago.

 

Unable to manage the financial aspects of these new temptations, farmers buy machines, cars, motorbikes and other goodies while giving their land in guarantee, with the consequences one can imagine.

 

Unfortunately, all this is unlikely to be reversed...