Why is the MAGA movement so susceptible to crazy conspiracy theories?

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

I'm quite far from being UK apologist. I'm just against Russian's, occasionally rather ridiculous ways to alter the information and create doubt.

 

First things first, do you have any credible source of these photos with those timestamps. Naturally the bellydancer hubby is not a valid source in this case. 

I wasn't accusing you of being a UK apologist, but responding to your comment where you questioned why it was a Russia supporter who had posted the pictures on his website.

 

I didn't post the pictures on this forum, but it seems that there are many websites who have covered them, so make your choice about which one you consider credible enough to your taste.

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-TH&tbs=sbi:AMhZZitnphk5aGRIFUgmapR4LMfgoSYuRe_1xd3j73Q6ufFLYWG5JAMjUmf6hpPaoM5z19jJQdqNXlC-AS_1IAekPFm7Cl3vleoE68DSww8iHHSbPnON5WpEVubrFGP5z5oPbchDb-9fCJEBgOzOGhxMtk7IQVnYsdGOXZbirJBfpvC18o_1CfZYUBrM8QEGtKx_1SyGLduEgsDUxIP-hDxoUqVmAbaJR0kvng8VVWJFYBqBD7GRNJqzdRBnrQ-6jmU4AltLVBzASwot36QsedLoI5DZRu4yJvUOcE4IKfIhtqbkA08gHknziY6yjercwYnB4a2qxW5u7dBatjxPyKzC6gqKcwrCLHiy76Vr9_1cvEvXWPyafuHs198U&ei=TmGSW5aPE8T7vASIoIHICA&start=0&sa=N&biw=1536&bih=720

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

None of it makes any sense - but then again, it's likely that russian assassins could be this incompetent, and a small perfume bottle would probably pass through airport checks.

That would be assuming that the agents acted by themselves!

Which is highly unlikely...how would they have come in possession of the poison in the first place?

So, obviously a higher authority was involved, and we would also have to assume that this authority was as incompetent as its hapless agents.

 

As I wrote above, if indeed the Russian secret services organized this operation, then the West can relax because there is not much to fear from such an opponent.

Indeed, how could Russia significantly harm, or invade, a country when it cannot even manage to assassinate two civilians without any protection?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

I wasn't accusing you of being a UK apologist, but responding to your comment where you questioned why it was a Russia supporter who had posted the pictures on his website.

 

I didn't post the pictures on this forum, but it seems that there are many websites who have covered them, so make your choice about which one you consider credible enough to your taste.

 

Let's start with this one as I don't want to write everything again.

 

The camera angle is indeed different on those photos. This was not what I was looking for, but it already validates that the photos has been taken from different cameras. 

 

I was looking for the credible source for these photos (MET police or credible news agency), to make sure that someone haven't edited or even easier task, added the timestamps to the photos. 

 

It's easy to make conspiracy claims, but often those claims proof to be wrong. Like in this case with the timestamps.

 

[Guest]

Apparently even Murray has backtacked his claims. Good for him, but his initial claims doesn't add to his credibility. He wrote what he wanted to be the truth, not what was true. 

Quote

UPDATE

I am prepared to acknowledge that, given the gate design, they could have passed through different gates in exact synchronicity and this may be a red herring. I am leaving this post up here as it is good to acknowledge mistakes. Please read my updated post Skripals – The Mystery Deepens

 

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-impossible-photo/

[CG1 Blue]

I don’t have any doubts the Russians attempted to assassinate Skripal, and by doing so they unintentionally hurt / killed innocent civilians. The attempt was clumsy at best.

 

But you could say we invited this upon ourselves, by harbouring a Russian double agent. Surely nobody expects a Russian double agent to live a full life?

 

What I’m not so happy about is how this is being blown out of all proportion.  They tried to kill a Russian spy, and that’s all.

 

We have much bigger threats to worry about on our streets these days.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, nausea said:

Very true, and I, for one, was sceptical. Now we're getting some hard facts I'm coming down on the anti-Russian side. What were they thinking? Don't they realise this destroys their credibility on so many issues - use of chemical weapons in Syria being a prime example.

The fact that you are able to change your view with the new public evidence is actually very good to hear! It also makes me to respect you a lot more.

 

The thing with false information often is that the side which is keen to spread false information, relies that they will get the attention and lockdown of thoughts of people who buy their ideas and doubts. Not all people are able to break free, when new information arrives.

 

That is basically a marketing strategy. Once a doubtful person buys for example a car, he or she starts to develop reasons to fortify himself with thoughts, why the purchase was a good one. I have a feeling, there is a better definition than just Confirmation bias, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

Well done, being open to change. That's unfortunate rare these days. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

It doesn't take CSI TVF to read the time stamp on the pictures, but however criticise the person who brought it to our attention, you fail to give us an explanation

 

There was an explanation posted by another poster earlier, and a more detailed version just after your post, plus the claim was retracted by the esteemed source.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Really??  How many posters were "saying it was not done by Russians, but the UK themselves"?

 

I think you'll find that a few of us were sceptical about the lack of facts/incompetence of the assassination attempt/immediate condemnation etc. etc.  The death of someone entirely innocent who found a bottle containing the lethal substance, made a few of us even more sceptical about what the hell had happened!

 

Edit - Especially as the uk/usa/europe etc. had very good reasons for diverting attention attention away from their own problems - and on to russia.

 

I agree.  Some "hard facts" are finally being presented.

 

It now seems likely that that either a) the russian agents were completely incompetent - not only in using such a weak method to kill the intended victim (that failed), but also

b) in using a perfume bottle to hide the lethal substance and then 'dumping' the perfume bottle - which would obviously be picked up by any 'down in luck' passer by.

 

None of it makes any sense - but then again, it's likely that russian assassins could be this incompetent, and a small perfume bottle would probably pass through airport checks.

 

So you are willing to concede it might be the Russian. Progress, I guess. As for asserting incompetence - there were several takes posted on that (and supporting links in case "just your opinion" claims are up). The bottom line of these is that there's an element of "message delivery" involved (perhaps on several levels). There's also the realistic possibility that some parts of the operation were botched whereas others weren't. Guess we wouldn't know for sure.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think they transported the substance to the UK in liquid form. That would be rather risky (and pointlessly so) and easier to detect.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

That would be assuming that the agents acted by themselves!

Which is highly unlikely...how would they have come in possession of the poison in the first place?

So, obviously a higher authority was involved, and we would also have to assume that this authority was as incompetent as its hapless agents.

 

As I wrote above, if indeed the Russian secret services organized this operation, then the West can relax because there is not much to fear from such an opponent.

Indeed, how could Russia significantly harm, or invade, a country when it cannot even manage to assassinate two civilians without any protection?

 

More nonsense.

 

Agents get caught, operations get botched. I doubt there's an intelligence service who didn't experience such failure. It doesn't follow that the organization is incompetent. It doesn't even necessarily imply agents involved were incompetent.

 

But this whole "incompetence" angle may be bogus. There is a possibility that some of the resulting publicity was intentional, and an integral part of the operative goals.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don’t have any doubts the Russians attempted to assassinate Skripal, and by doing so they unintentionally hurt / killed innocent civilians. The attempt was clumsy at best.

 

But you could say we invited this upon ourselves, by harbouring a Russian double agent. Surely nobody expects a Russian double agent to live a full life?

 

What I’m not so happy about is how this is being blown out of all proportion.  They tried to kill a Russian spy, and that’s all.

 

We have much bigger threats to worry about on our streets these days.

 

The guy is an British citizen now. And he spied for the UK. Should people like him be used and tossed aside? There is no rule of thumb about ex-spies and traitors (whether formerly Russian or not) not living out their days. Accepting this as some sort norm, or law of nature ("that' all") is wrong.

 

There might be bigger threats, but this topic isn't about them. Nor is it clear how them "bigger threats" would benefit from ignoring or minimizing this instance.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

But this whole "incompetence" angle may be bogus. There is a possibility that some of the resulting publicity was intentional, and an integral part of the operative goals.

This!

 

Then again, it's all too possible that these disposable Russian agents were not that well trained to do their work.

 

We'll probably never know the real purpose of this incident, but it's smart to keep all options open. 

[CG1 Blue]

48 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The guy is an British citizen now. And he spied for the UK. Should people like him be used and tossed aside? There is no rule of thumb about ex-spies and traitors (whether formerly Russian or not) not living out their days. Accepting this as some sort norm, or law of nature ("that' all") is wrong.

 

There might be bigger threats, but this topic isn't about them. Nor is it clear how them "bigger threats" would benefit from ignoring or minimizing this instance.

If you become a traitor to the Russian government, the risks are obvious. I don't want the UK to end up in a dangerous diplomatic crisis over a man who decided he would take that risk.

If you betrayed Putin, would you seriously expect to live out your days?

[Slip]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

More nonsense.

 

Agents get caught, operations get botched. I doubt there's an intelligence service who didn't experience such failure. It doesn't follow that the organization is incompetent. It doesn't even necessarily imply agents involved were incompetent.

 

But this whole "incompetence" angle may be bogus. There is a possibility that some of the resulting publicity was intentional, and an integral part of the operative goals.

Re your 2nd paragraph:  Like a mob hit would you say?

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If you become a traitor to the Russian government, the risks are obvious. I don't want the UK to end up in a dangerous diplomatic crisis over a man who decided he would take that risk.

If you betrayed Putin, would you seriously expect to live out your days?

 

So, essentially, you're alright with the notion of using the guy, then tossing him aside when its inconvenient. What I'd expect is that the country he spied for, and currently a citizen of will not adopt an attitude of "oh well, what did you expect?".

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Slip said:

Re your 2nd paragraph:  Like a mob hit would you say?

 

Like sending a message to other former agents, traitors and spies. Like sending a message to would be traitors within. Like (if some reports are correct) sending a message that release terms were meant seriously, rather than a formality. And finally, as sending a "yes, we can" message to the UK and the West.

[CG1 Blue]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

So, essentially, you're alright with the notion of using the guy, then tossing him aside when its inconvenient. What I'd expect is that the country he spied for, and currently a citizen of will not adopt an attitude of "oh well, what did you expect?".

He hasn't been tossed aside has he? Housed in the UK, given British citizenship, and no doubt some level of protection.

What I'm saying is all spies know the risks and have to live with them. And I think it's hypocritical to be outraged by this - an attempted assassination of a man we used to spy on the Russians.

[Slip]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Like sending a message to other former agents, traitors and spies. Like sending a message to would be traitors within. Like (if some reports are correct) sending a message that release terms were meant seriously, rather than a formality. And finally, as sending a "yes, we can" message to the UK and the West.

Definitely like a mob hit then. 

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

He hasn't been tossed aside has he? Housed in the UK, given British citizenship, and no doubt some level of protection.

What I'm saying is all spies know the risks and have to live with them. And I think it's hypocritical to be outraged by this - an attempted assassination of a man we used to spy on the Russians.

 

No doubt some of the outrage expressed, especially by politicians, relates to your position. But on the other hand, a sovereign country cannot seat idly by and say "oh, well..." when a foreign power carries out such actions, against one of own its citizens and on its soil.

 

Asserting that there is a risk, and accepting it as fact is one thing. Putting up with Russia's actions is another.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

If you become a traitor to the Russian government, the risks are obvious. I don't want the UK to end up in a dangerous diplomatic crisis over a man who decided he would take that risk.

If you betrayed Putin, would you seriously expect to live out your days?

What you say is: Russia is so powerful country, nobody should raise their voices against mother Russia.

 

If someone does dear to challenge the current status quo in Russia, he or she should expected to be hanged?

 

Seriously, is that where you personal backbone is? This might be news for you, most of the Russian folks have sturdy ideas who they are and how they want to live their lives. Not under the Putin regime. 

 

Also, most of us think that Russia is rather weak country at the moment. Russia used to be a strong country, but with it's current leader, Putin, nobody believes Russia has a real future. It's time to make and choose a new, real people leader for Russia.

[Brunolem]

9 hours ago, oilinki said:

This might be news for you, most of the Russian folks have sturdy ideas who they are and how they want to live their lives. Not under the Putin regime. 

 

Also, most of us think that Russia is rather weak country at the moment. Russia used to be a strong country, but with it's current leader, Putin, nobody believes Russia has a real future. It's time to make and choose a new, real people leader for Russia.

Actually this is news to me...any link please?

 

Russia a weak country...sure...just ask the Germans and the French...and in these times Russia had no hypersonic weapons...

 

As for Russia's leaders, the anglo-saxons should better focus on their own leadership and their multiple issues at home, rather than trying to reshape other countries to their liking!

 

Just ask the Iraqis how happy they are to have been "liberated" by the anglo-saxons, or the Libyans...

[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No doubt some of the outrage expressed, especially by politicians, relates to your position. But on the other hand, a sovereign country cannot seat idly by and say "oh, well..." when a foreign power carries out such actions, against one of own its citizens and on its soil.

 

Asserting that there is a risk, and accepting it as fact is one thing. Putting up with Russia's actions is another.

That's a laugh, why then do not the UK law enforcement not want to work together with the Russian law enforcement and not answer questions asked by Russia.

 

I don't support any of the rhetoric that is thrown at any country if they do not want to work together there's two sides and truth to every story but this is just one-sided in my view just to enforce more sanctions,  stupidity at it's highest.

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

That's a laugh, why then do not the UK law enforcement not want to work together with the Russian law enforcement and not answer questions asked by Russia.

 

I don't support any of the rhetoric that is thrown at any country if they do not want to work together there's two sides and truth to every story but this is just one-sided in my view just to enforce more sanctions,  stupidity at it's highest.

 

 

 

 

 

A laugh would be pretending that "Russian law enforcement" is a neutral, objective party as far as this case is concerned. Not giving Russia a ringside seat in an investigation involving suspicions Russian agents carried an attack on British soil sounds reasonable.

 

Your point view would have some merit if all countries played along the same rules, were governed by similar political  systems, had the same track with regard to law enforcement, and if there was a credible way of mediating differences and disagreements. This is not the case.

 

So to be clear, you're still holding that this was a fabricated attack, with the intention of hurting Russia?

[Kwasaki]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

A laugh would be pretending that "Russian law enforcement" is a neutral, objective party as far as this case is concerned. Not giving Russia a ringside seat in an investigation involving suspicions Russian agents carried an attack on British soil sounds reasonable.

 

Your point view would have some merit if all countries played along the same rules, were governed by similar political  systems, had the same track with regard to law enforcement, and if there was a credible way of mediating differences and disagreements. This is not the case.

 

So to be clear, you're still holding that this was a fabricated attack, with the intention of hurting Russia?

See it as an embarrassment to the UK frankly whether different systems are same or not, there should be proper dialogue not silly political games played. 

The UK will be the losers because what they gonna do threaten to nuke em. ?

[Brunolem]

42 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Your point view would have some merit if all countries played along the same rules, were governed by similar political  systems, had the same track with regard to law enforcement, and if there was a credible way of mediating differences and disagreements. This is not the case.

 

So to be clear, you're still holding that this was a fabricated attack, with the intention of hurting Russia?

Each country, or rather group of countries, plays its own game.

 

While Russia would appear to be busy trying (and miserably failing) to assassinate retired spies, the UK, along with its usual partners, is busy trying to assassinate foreign dictators and destroying their countries together with large parts of their populations...

 

As for the Skripal case, if someone is in the provocation business, here is what he might do:

 

recruit two average Russians with an unfriendly look, and offer them a nice trip, all expenses paid, plus 10,000 USD each to buy some souvenirs...all these guys have to do is to travel on Aeroflot from Moscow to London, then go for a walk in Salisbury, and then come back...that's it!

 

All this will be recorded step by step in the visited country, which is exactly the point.

 

Meanwhile, right after the little trip made by the two professional tourists, and not killers, real agents acting with the required discretion can drop poison on the Skripals' door, and then throw the bottle in a public place, to make sure that it will be recovered.

 

Now that's what I would call a professional hit job!

 

But obviously, we all know that the Russians are evil morons always thirsty for blood, and unable to achieve any kind of success (except maybe when it comes to bring Western astronauts to the space station and back...but then again rocket science is way easier than assassination).

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

See it as an embarrassment to the UK frankly whether different systems are same or not, there should be proper dialogue not silly political games played. 

The UK will be the losers because what they gonna do threaten to nuke em. ?

 

Should be went for lunch. In the real world, the sort of cooperation and dialogue you call for are not necessarily the norm among countries with very differing systems.

 

And as with the other posters making the same "point", your last line is essentially cheering the bully.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts have been removed. 

[dabhand]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45494627

 

Apparently they are 'civilians' and have been 'found' by the Russians. According to Putin 'he hoped they would appear soon and tell their story'.

 

This should be good........

[Brunolem]

10 minutes ago, dabhand said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45494627

 

Apparently they are 'civilians' and have been 'found' by the Russians. According to Putin 'he hoped they would appear soon and tell their story'.

 

This should be good........

And the Skripal story seen from another perspective...

 

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/10/skripal-and-syria-imperative-criminalizing-russia.html

 

 

[Slip]

18 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

And the Skripal story seen from another perspective...

 

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/10/skripal-and-syria-imperative-criminalizing-russia.html

 

 

A Russian perspective, but an interesting read all the same.  

[Morch]

18 hours ago, Brunolem said:

And the Skripal story seen from another perspective...

 

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/10/skripal-and-syria-imperative-criminalizing-russia.html

 

 

 

Let's get some more quotes from Russian "objective" and "independent" sources....

 

Covered, with other related issues, here:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/12/how-russia-targets-the-us-military-215247