Australia paper defends Serena Williams cartoon despite outrage

[RickBradford]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Check you local Eskimo.  Many Native Alaskans still refer to themselves as Eskimos, in part because the word Inuit isn't part of the Yupik languages of Alaska and Siberia. US census bureau still uses the term Eskimo.  In 1960, categories for Aleut and Eskimo were added in Alaska only. Since 2000, the category has grouped both of these together as “American Indian or Alaska Native,” and the census form provides a blank space to specify a tribe.

Not only did President Obama sign legislation in 2016 to remove the word 'Eskimo' from Federal statutes, but also Canada  a long time ago removed the word from official documents.

 

It may well be that Native Alaskans don't have another word to describe themselves, but I think there are words used between members of the black community in the US which an outsider should not use.

 

The communities in Canada and Greenland find the word offensive, and both the US and Canadian governments have respected their wishes in this matter. It should not be bandied around by outsiders.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, RickBradford said:

Not only did President Obama sign legislation in 2016 to remove the word 'Eskimo' from Federal statutes, but also Canada  a long time ago removed the word from official documents.

 

It may well be that Native Alaskans don't have another word to describe themselves, but I think there are words used between members of the black community in the US which an outsider should not use.

 

The communities in Canada and Greenland find the word offensive, and both the US and Canadian governments have respected their wishes in this matter. It should not be bandied around by outsiders.

I am not a Canadian and like I said the term is still used by the US government and me. 

 

But my point was that I know as much about Eskimos as Australians know about Blacks and that's not much. 

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

But I think this thread is about a racist cartoon.  It's a racist cartoon and the Aussies don't want to admit it.  If they want to publish a racist cartoon it's OK by me but admit what it is and get over it. 

Could you explain why you think that the cartoon is racist ?

Please dont give your answer Bluesy style with just another claim that its racist .

Explain why you feel that the cartoon is racist .

[KMartinHandyman]

Not only did President Obama sign legislation in 2016 to remove the word 'Eskimo' from Federal statutes, but also Canada  a long time ago removed the word from official documents.
 
It may well be that Native Alaskans don't have another word to describe themselves, but I think there are words used between members of the black community in the US which an outsider should not use.
 
The communities in Canada and Greenland find the word offensive, and both the US and Canadian governments have respected their wishes in this matter. It should not be bandied around by outsiders.

He also changed McKinley to Denali. It doesn’t make him right.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Could you explain why you think that the cartoon is racist ?

Please dont give your answer Bluesy style with just another claim that its racist .

Explain why you feel that the cartoon is racist .

In America when cartoon movies (1920's) were invented there were many black stereotype cartoon characters that all looked like the Australian drawing.  The purpose of the cartoons were to mock black people and justify the segregation laws of the time. There is a Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university (my daughter went to school there) you might want to take a look at the exhibits to notice the similarities.  The average Aussie is not aware of these things where the average American like me is acutely aware of them and the rest of the world is knowledgeable of them. 

[mfd101]

Re the cartoon, I think there is rather a cultural barrier here between Australians & Usofans.

 

Australians have a strong sense of 'a fair go' and of sportsmanship. These are major elements in Oz culture. In Oz you get a prize just for turning up. It's not the winner-takes-all culture of Usofa.

 

Australians object STRONGLY to prominent rich people who behave badly and can't bare to come second. Any Australian watching the match the other day would have been appalled by Williams' behaviour and would have nodded their agreement with the subsequent cartoon. She deserved what she got, would be their attitude. Sensitivity to the race aspect would not have been part of their consciousness and they, like me, would now feel that no apology is warranted.

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

In America when cartoon movies (1920's) were invented there were many black stereotype cartoon characters that all looked like the Australian drawing.  The purpose of the cartoons were to mock black people and justify the segregation laws of the time. There is a Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university (my daughter went to school there) you might want to take a look at the exhibits to notice the similarities.  The average Aussie is not aware of these things where the average American like me is acutely aware of them and the rest of the world is knowledgeable of them. 

The cartoons from the 1920s may well have had racial connotations (I dont know) , but we are not talking about cartoons from 100 years ago , we are talking about cartoons from 2018 .

   We are talking about a cartoon from last week , not cartoons from 100 years ago

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

In America when cartoon movies (1920's) were invented there were many black stereotype cartoon characters that all looked like the Australian drawing.  The purpose of the cartoons were to mock black people and justify the segregation laws of the time. There is a Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university (my daughter went to school there) you might want to take a look at the exhibits to notice the similarities.  The average Aussie is not aware of these things where the average American like me is acutely aware of them and the rest of the world is knowledgeable of them. 

Not an answer to why you find this cartoon racist. No segregation laws in Australia and the cartoon specifically mocked Serena Williams, not black people in general. Are you saying that any cartoon that caricatures a black celebrity, is racist?

[giddyup]

20 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

 Australian Aboriginals are not like American blacks.  American blacks were slaves and that changed the life experience of both black and white Americans. 

Who's comparing Aboriginals with African Americans? You're all over the place like a mad womens caca.

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Re the cartoon, I think there is rather a cultural barrier here between Australians & Usofans.

 

Australians have a strong sense of 'a fair go' and of sportsmanship. These are major elements in Oz culture. In Oz you get a prize just for turning up. It's not the winner-takes-all culture of Usofa.

 

Australians object STRONGLY to prominent rich people who behave badly and can't bare to come second. Any Australian watching the match the other day would have been appalled by Williams' behaviour and would have nodded their agreement with the subsequent cartoon. She deserved what she got, would be their attitude. Sensitivity to the race aspect would not have been part of their consciousness and they, like me, would now feel that no apology is warranted.

That's the conclusion I came to after reading this thread.  They really don't know just how offensive it is to American Black people.

[sanemax]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I am not a Canadian and like I said the term is still used by the US government and me. 

 

But my point was that I know as much about Eskimos as Australians know about Blacks and that's not much. 

What are the things that you feel that Australians do not know about Blacks ?

You are beginning to sound rather racist , suggesting that Blacks are different to other people ,

I just see people as being people and I dont divide them up by their ethnicity or skin colour .

    I do feel uncomfortable even asking you this question , but what do you think that Australians need to be told about Black people , things that they dont know, what they need to know ?

[wgdanson]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:05 AM, Berkshire said:

The women will argue that they bring in as many fans and TV audience as the men, so the number of sets played is irrelevant.  And they could be right, I don't know.  But there is a simple solution:  do like golf and have separate men and women tournaments.  Of course, that would never happen.  Tradition and all that.  

The tennis slams ARE in effect separate competitions for men & women....they never play against each other.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The cartoons from the 1920s may well have had racial connotations (I dont know) , but we are not talking about cartoons from 100 years ago , we are talking about cartoons from 2018 .

   We are talking about a cartoon from last week , not cartoons from 100 years ago

To Black people it is recent history see the Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university.  This is still a big problem in America where Confederate Generals statues still are on State Capitol lawns.   They are still fighting the Civil war in the South.  I know you all don't realize this but it's true.  

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

That's the conclusion I came to after reading this thread.  They really don't know just how offensive it is to American Black people.

Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?

Do all White people get offended by any Caricature of a White person ?

[Spidey]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

To Black people it is recent history see the Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university.  This is still a big problem in America where Confederate Generals statues still are on State Capitol lawns.   They are still fighting the Civil war in the South.  I know you all don't realize this but it's true.  

All of which I agree with (although many wouldn't). However it has zero relevance to whether an amusing and accurate caricature of a black celebrity is racist or not.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?

Do all White people get offended by any Caricature of a White person ?

Exactly. On the same page as the Williams caricature, was an equally unflattering caricature of Trump and I don't here his supporters howling with indignation.

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

What are the things that you feel that Australians do not know about Blacks ?

You are beginning to sound rather racist , suggesting that Blacks are different to other people ,

I just see people as being people and I dont divide them up by their ethnicity or skin colour .

    I do feel uncomfortable even asking you this question , but what do you think that Australians need to be told about Black people , things that they dont know, what they need to know ?

Stop being offensive to blacks.  The cartoon was offensive.  Daughter of MLK " So unfortunate that this is your response; and without consideration for the painful historical context of such imagery and how it can support biases and racism today. Why wouldn’t a human being care about that?"  

 

The cartoonist didn't even know about the American Jim Crow cartoons saying, " no knowledge of those cartoons or that period” and he thought the said people were “making stuff up”.

 

Someone should provide a bit of education to these fellows. 

[mfd101]

Just now, Spidey said:

All of which I agree with (although many wouldn't). However it has zero relevance to whether an amusing and accurate caricature of a black celebrity is racist or not.

I don't think you can reasonably put that argument, any more than the Usofans can reasonably put the opposite. Whether the cartoon is 'racist' or not is entirely subjective and therefore depends entirely on a person's psychology, social background, general attitudes and what side of bed they got out of this morning. Which makes arguing over it rather pointless.

 

What is not pointless is different people LEARNING from this thread and being less quick to jump to extreme judgments on other people of whom they know little.

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Exactly. On the same page as the Williams caricature, was an equally unflattering caricature of Trump and I don't here his supporters howling with indignation.

To add and Sanemax wrote, " Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?"

 

It is not your fault but you all don't have a clue.  All black Americans are upset and angry about it.  Not the temper tantrum as that is being debated but the racist cartoon.  Australia is alone with a few KKK members on not finding the cartoon racist. 

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

I don't think you can reasonably put that argument, any more than the Usofans can reasonably put the opposite. Whether the cartoon is 'racist' or not is entirely subjective and therefore depends entirely on a person's psychology, social background, general attitudes and what side of bed they got out of this morning. Which makes arguing over it rather pointless.

 

What is not pointless is different people LEARNING from this thread and being less quick to jump to extreme judgments on other people of whom they know little.

Good point as the cartoonist had no historical knowledge of how much his drawing would remind people of an era in American history where blacks were regularly lynched by hooded men burning crosses and this takes more than a few years to forget.

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

To Black people it is recent history see the Jim Crow museum of of racist memorabilia at Ferris State university.  This is still a big problem in America where Confederate Generals statues still are on State Capitol lawns.   They are still fighting the Civil war in the South.  I know you all don't realize this but it's true.  

The American civil war ended a long time ago , although there may still be racial prejudice in the deep south , that reason cannot be used as an excuse to protect U.S. sportswomen from being ridiculed by way of caricatures in newspapers cartoons in Australia, when they behave in a way that warrants a cartoon

[Spidey]

Just now, mfd101 said:

Whether the cartoon is 'racist' or not is entirely subjective and therefore depends entirely on a person's psychology, social background, general attitudes and what side of bed they got out of this morning.

Not so. Whether or not it's racist is a fact. Would a court of law find it racist?

What element of the cartoon is racist? Did it portray her as a monkey? Does it portray her as a primitive with a bone through her nose. Or does it accurately characterise Serena Williams as she appeared on my television?

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

To add and Sanemax wrote, " Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?"

 

It is not your fault but you all don't have a clue.  All black Americans are upset and angry about it.  Not the temper tantrum as that is being debated but the racist cartoon.  Australia is alone with a few KKK members on not finding the cartoon racist. 

You are stating that anyone who doesnt find this cartoon to be offensive , is a member of the KKK?

   I do not find this cartoon to be offensive and you are suggesting that I am a member of the KKK?

That is an offensive statement to make , much more offensive than a cartoon .

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

To add and Sanemax wrote, " Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?"

 

It is not your fault but you all don't have a clue.  All black Americans are upset and angry about it.  Not the temper tantrum as that is being debated but the racist cartoon.  Australia is alone with a few KKK members on not finding the cartoon racist. 

Australia is not alone. The majority of people in this world see the cartoon as accurate and mildly amusing and not racist. I am British. Most people would regard me as a snowflake libertarian. I have been a Guardian reader (which you quoted to support your argument) all my adult life. I have had friends from the black community in the UK and still have friends from the UK South Asian community. I am married to a Thai. I don't have a racist bone in my body.

 

I am not racist. The cartoon is not racist. And so say all of my friends.

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

You are stating that anyone who doesnt find this cartoon to be offensive , is a member of the KKK?

   I do not find this cartoon to be offensive and you are suggesting that I am a member of the KKK?

That is an offensive statement to make , much more offensive than a cartoon .

No of course not.  I am saying that Aussies don't know anything about what offends American Black people.

[marcusarelus]

Just now, Spidey said:

Australia is not alone. The majority of people in this world see the cartoon as accurate and mildly amusing and not racist. I am British. Most people would regard me as a snowflake libertarian. I have been a Guardian reader (which you quoted to support your argument) all my adult life. I have had friends from the black community in the UK and still have friends from the UK South Asian community. I am married to a Thai. I don't have a racist bone in my body.

 

I am not racist. The cartoon is not racist. And so say all of my friends.

Except the Guardian which says globally people think the cartoon is racist.  "News Corp defiant after 'racist' Serena Williams cartoon sparks global furore"    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/12/news-corp-defiant-after-racist-serena-williams-cartoon-sparks-global-furore

 

See "sparks global furor!  You brought up the Guardian. 

[giddyup]

15 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

To add and Sanemax wrote, " Why would ALL American Black people get offended by a caricature of Serena Williams ?"

 

It is not your fault but you all don't have a clue.  All black Americans are upset and angry about it.  Not the temper tantrum as that is being debated but the racist cartoon.  Australia is alone with a few KKK members on not finding the cartoon racist. 

You do love to generalise, All blacks are offended, you have interviewed them all I suppose? What a load of twaddle.

[giddyup]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

No of course not.  I am saying that Aussies don't know anything about what offends American Black people.

I don't know where you get off as the unappointed spokesman for the entire black race in the US, and also an expert on what Aussies know.

[Spidey]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

Except the Guardian which says globally people think the cartoon is racist.  "News Corp defiant after 'racist' Serena Williams cartoon sparks global furore"    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/12/news-corp-defiant-after-racist-serena-williams-cartoon-sparks-global-furore

 

See "sparks global furor!  You brought up the Guardian. 

No, you brought up the Guardian, several times. The Guardian and that silly, literally inept bitch, J.K. Rowling. These are the only two strings to your bow. Got nothing better?

[giddyup]

5 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Except the Guardian which says globally people think the cartoon is racist.  "News Corp defiant after 'racist' Serena Williams cartoon sparks global furore"    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/sep/12/news-corp-defiant-after-racist-serena-williams-cartoon-sparks-global-furore

 

See "sparks global furor!  You brought up the Guardian. 

Yawn, you are repeating yourself, again and again and again, and again....................