new regulations for retirement visa for Americans?

[mfd101]

The notion that Thai Immigration officers are going to check/verify/prove the income docos in multiple languages is simply laughable.

 

At Kap Choeng, if you don't speak Thai you need someone along who does. I made the mistake 2 days ago of having my neatly typed (Aussie) statdec with 3 elegant sentences explaining that, as shown on my accompanying superannuation statement for 2018/2019, my fortnightly income is $Ax, which translates into $Ay annually, which translates into $Az monthly. Silly me. Long explanation from my b/f required to explain it all. Fine.

 

Then it turned out that the boss couldn't work out what '$A' meant - had never seen a dollar sign in his life before! - and wouldn't believe us when we told him!

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Then it turned out that the boss couldn't work out what '$A' meant - had never seen a dollar sign in his life before! - and wouldn't believe us when we told him!

The $A you used might have me scratching my head. If you wrote AUD it would better since that is the standard abbreviation for it.

But for something like the statutory declaration I think I would write Australian Dollars.

[Pib]

When a person walks into immigration with their income affidavit from the U.S. Embassy where the person has affirmed in front of an embassy official the following/below which is a quoted from the income letter the person just needs to be prepared to backup what they affirmed if (repeat if) the immigration officer asks for additional documentation.  That is, be able to provide financial documents that will satisfy Thai immigration that what you affirmed below is indeed true....and hope immigration accepts your financial documents as legit and not some fakes creatively made-up on your computer.

 

Quote

I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $____________________ from sources in the United States. I am applying for a Thai visa/extension of a current Thai visa, and any assistance you can provide in this request will be greatly appreciated. The U.S. Embassy does not guarantee the contents of my own sworn statement. Under penalty of perjury, I assume full and complete responsibility for the veracity of the claims herein.

 

[mfd101]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The $A you used might have me scratching my head. If you wrote AUD it would better since that is the standard abbreviation for it.

But for something like the statutory declaration I think I would write Australian Dollars.

Yes, lesson learned for next year!

[JWNZ]

On 10/11/2018 at 10:57 AM, Media1 said:

Rubbish if they issue a certified document immigration must accept it

Point being, the embassy document itself is certified, however the person presenting the document, may or may not have the required funds, therefor, the document needs supporting evidence of funds, something not required to obtain the certified document itself...……..To me, if you can support your claims, then there is nothing to worry about...……...

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, JWNZ said:

oint being, the embassy document itself is certified, however the person presenting the document, may or may not have the required funds, therefor, the document needs supporting evidence of funds, something not required to obtain the certified document itself...……..To me, if you can support your claims, then there is nothing to worry about...……...

I would agree- years ago I was asked for the proof of income along with the Embassy Letter-  I showed the following

A.  Verification letter from Pension Source- Us Government

B.   On Line Banking  docs printed showing a Direct Deposit from the source as well as the section showing ATM withdrawals from a Thai ATM.

C.   The Us Debit Cards which I used to take out the money in Thailand.

 

Everything matched-  They never asked again.

 

Other people will have other documentation- If in a foreign language all could be translated into English or  Thai.

[JimGant]

Quote

So a person would now bring and have to list brokerage account numbers, show stock and bond assets with the numbers of shares, and estimated dividend and interest income.  Not impossible, but now the Thais know somebody has XXX money, or is a millionaire, has their primary bank and brokerage account numbers and other information.  Doesn't sound good to me.  Information can be abused

Why get so hyped over nothing.... If CM, and soon maybe other Immigration offices, want proof of income from us Yanks, just collect enough 1099's whose sum, when divided by 12, arrive at 65k baht/mo. Or, if you're not shy about your total AGI, just show your latest Form 1040 (with a Turbotax coversheet to prove your not fabricating  this form). Personally, the figure on my last income affidavit matched exactly the statement of my monthly Air Force pension (the gross figure, not the one net of taxes and allotments, as "gross" has always been the acceptable figure required of Thai Immigration).

 

But, hopefully, this is where it stops. That someone reported the requirement to see incoming funds to Thailand, seems to be a step too far..... Except, of course, if "Big Joke" wants to see disposable, not gross, income.

 

Anyway, if the income method becomes a pain, PIB's method (above) sounds attractive.

 

 

[galt67]

6 hours ago, JWNZ said:

Point being, the embassy document itself is certified, however the person presenting the document, may or may not have the required funds, therefor, the document needs supporting evidence of funds, something not required to obtain the certified document itself...……..To me, if you can support your claims, then there is nothing to worry about...……...

2

This is the crux of the issue for many (most?).

 

A friend who's lived in Thailand and I guess it's less than 50% that can do so.

 

 

[Jingthing]

This is the crux of the issue for many (most?).

 

A friend who's lived in Thailand and I guess it's less than 50% that can do so.

 

 

I have no guesstimate on that but there are two categories of people that couldn't provide evidence. Those that have made fraudulent claims and those with financial situations that are of the kind that would be impossible to prove to immigration in terms they would understand. We don't even have any standards on what immigration considers adequate backup evidence in the first place. It's not the black and white situation that many people are painting. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

I have a radical idea for the future. Thai immigration could create a fast lane system for income based applicants. You go in once for an extra fee and make your case with your documents. Personalized service. The purpose would be for lifetime streams to be validated so that they can be claimed for life without embassy letters. Perfect for legitimate pensioners. They could do it with one desk in Bangkok. It would be worth it to many people to travel to get that. It wouldn't be the solution for everyone but it could be for a hefty percentage of people.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Blue bruce]

Thanks Ubon Jo, so many rumors, so much fake news

[Maestro]

Removed some troll posts and off-topic posts and the replies to them.

[gk10002000]

15 hours ago, JimGant said:

Why get so hyped over nothing.... If CM, and soon maybe other Immigration offices, want proof of income from us Yanks, just collect enough 1099's whose sum, when divided by 12, arrive at 65k baht/mo. Or, if you're not shy about your total AGI, just show your latest Form 1040 (with a Turbotax coversheet to prove your not fabricating  this form). Personally, the figure on my last income affidavit matched exactly the statement of my monthly Air Force pension (the gross figure, not the one net of taxes and allotments, as "gross" has always been the acceptable figure required of Thai Immigration).

 

But, hopefully, this is where it stops. That someone reported the requirement to see incoming funds to Thailand, seems to be a step too far..... Except, of course, if "Big Joke" wants to see disposable, not gross, income.

 

Anyway, if the income method becomes a pain, PIB's method (above) sounds attractive.

 

 

Well, first of all 1099s only come from regular brokerage accounts. If one such as me, also had Traditional IRAs or Roth IRAs those dividends and interest do NOT get reported on 1099s.  And those dividends and interest or gains or losses are NOT reported on the 1040 form.  So it may be challenging to prove one has such passive incomes.  Now I use etrade and they have an excellent income estimator and with a little work I can show the dividends and interest from all my accounts right up to the present moment.  And Etrade said they would issue some sort of letter certifying that on a certain date the income amounts reflect the current holdings.  But that does not mean that I use those income sources.  I could, but I don't plan on taking any distributions for a while.  So what the Thais or somebody will accept if they continue down this path?  Time will tell.  And I know they really really want a monthly sort of pension as income.  That is what they understand.  Not saying they wont accept other types.

[Pib]

If and when embassy income letters go away either because Thai immigration just stops accepting them because for whatever reason(s)......or embassies just decide to stop issuing them for whatever reason(s)... I really can't see Thai immigration just accepting most any documentation from the applicant to prove their income.  Just way, way too many ways to earn income and docs/format in how that income is reported.  Makes it's way too complicated, unworkable.

 

Docs such as home country tax returns, home country periodic banking/brokerage statements, rental payments, and/or a "whole array of various possible home country financial docs" as these docs could be easily forged/made-up with today's technology (.e., the magic of using a computer to make most any doc you want).  Immigration simply would not have time or skill to be able to review, understand, and most likely have to sometimes argue with the applicant over what the info on the "foreign" financial doc really says or if it's even a valid document.   Thai officials are not going to use a system that results in arguments frequently...just ain't going to happen. 

 

I could only see them accepting certain docs generated by "Thai" banks/companies/govt agencies/etc., and I expect they would only accept such docs that are freshly generated, stamped, and signed by an official like the bank letter an applicant gets when they are using the Bt800K in a Thai bank income method.   Of course folks on retirement visas/extensions of stay can't work in Thailand nor do many have periodic (like monthly) deposits/transfers going to a Thai bank account like say a monthly pension payment; most flow money into the country on an as-needed. Many different ways basis such as a transfer every X-months, using their foreign debit card at an ATM/counter, etc.  Just many ways to get money from the home country.  Plus many simply do not want to keep large sums in a Thai bank account if even they can easily do so.

 

Hopefully the embassy income letter will remain a method acceptable to Thai immigration even if some countries decide to stop issuing them to their citizens like what the UK embassy has announced for its citizens.  And I fully expect Thai immigration will continue to request supporting docs to the embassy income letter in some cases/at some offices....it's been that way for a long time....nothing new about that.  Hopefully those offices that do want to see supporting docs will remain reasonable in what is acceptable.  

 

Hopefully Thai immigration will back-off their pressure on foreign embassies to "verify" the amounts a person affirms to on an income letter as embassies can't do that.  All embassies can really do is watch you sign the income letter where you affirmed the monetary amount "you" entered on the form...and that they notarized the document that it was indeed you who signed....they are not notarizing the letter saying the amount you entered is indeed truthful statement by you. 

 

Thai immigration needs to either just to continue to accept the embassy income letter (but immigration could still ask for the applicant for some supporting financial docs when apply) or just do away with the income letter method.  But the latter would be devastating to many foreigners to include Thais dependents and businesses who depend on the income of foreigners.  

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

Or, just keep it simple. From what I can determine from Google, Switzerland's proof of income for Thai purposes only covers pensions -- and government pensions at that. And no printout from your computer -- present the original statement of pension -- or have the issuing authority send it via fax or email. Seems pretty ironclad to me -- and I'm sure to Thai Immigration. But, it sure cuts a lot of folks out of the pattern, i.e., those without government pensions..... Wouldn't effect me, if that's where we're headed, but certainly would effect many others.

 

Quote

Pensioners requiring confirmation of their pension for the Thai immigration authorities in order to extend their permit of stay in Thailand, can apply for a such at the Regional Consular Center. An original document (e.g. a pension order) confirming the current entitlement and which is no older than 6 months must be provided. Confirmations sent by the issuing authority/institution to the Regional Consular Center in Bangkok directly by fax or email are also accepted. Bank account or tax statements cannot be used.

If you are registered with this Embassy, the confirmation (for OASI or DI pensions only) may be issued based on a list this Embassy receives.

Pension certificates may be ordered by post by sending the original confirmation of pension entitlement with a postal money order* or a check (payable to the Embassy of Switzerland) to the embassy.
For fees applicable for the Certificate and Postage, please refer to left hand side section "Various fees".

If you are not registered with the Swiss Embassy, please also enclose a passport copy.

https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/thailand/en/home/dienstleistungen/bestaetigung-bescheinigung.html

Any Swiss out there care to comment? And what about France, Germany, etc -- a simple Google search wasn't too effective about their income statement particulars......

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

opefully the embassy income letter will remain a method acceptable to Thai immigration even if some countries decide to stop issuing them to their citizens like what the UK embassy has announced for its citizens.  And I fully expect Thai immigration will continue to request supporting docs to the embassy income letter in some cases/at some offices....it's been that way for a long time....nothing new about that.  Hopefully those offices that do want to see supporting docs will remain reasonable in what is acceptable.  

Well stated-  If all Embassies require their citizens to take the Oath before signing and then quote the particular law that indicates  swearing a false  Oath is a crime- and placing that statement on the Affidavit- I would hope this would satisfy Thai Imm. 

 

\However- I would also make Thai imm aware that in the case of the US  the use of an Oath is common in the Us.  Testifying before the US Congress- one swear an Oath; Going to Court and giving testimony the same; Notarizing documents for a loan; mortgage etc have legal consequences. Making a false Oath to a US Embassy is a Federal Offense. Using fake documents and  making a false statement to a Thai Police Officer is a Thai criminal offense.  

[roobaa01]

the only change now brits and americans are urged to have their pensions transferred to a thai bank acc. to prove 65 k, 800k, or a combination thereof to thai immi.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[Pib]

the only change now brits and americans are urged to have their pensions transferred to a thai bank acc. to prove 65 k, 800k, or a combination thereof to thai immi.
 
wbr
roobaa01

Who specifically "urged" that for Americans? Is an urge like a law or regulation? What weight does an urge have? I've got an urge to eat some ice cream...off to Swensen's I go.

[roobaa01]

@pib coz us embassy does not provide letters of income anymore.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

@pib coz us embassy does not provide letters of income anymore.

 

wbr

roobaa01

Really?  You're breaking some news here.  Care to mention your source.  Hope it wasn't anyone at the British Embassy ????

[watcharacters]

On 10/12/2018 at 10:42 AM, Pib said:

I am applying for a Thai visa/extension of a current Thai visa,

 

What happened to "permission to remain"?

 

[roobaa01]

@skatewash in general news here under thailand .

 

wbr

roobaa01

[watcharacters]

12 minutes ago, Pib said:

23 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

the only change now brits and americans are urged to have their pensions transferred to a thai bank acc. to prove 65 k, 800k, or a combination thereof to thai immi.
 
wbr
roobaa01

Who specifically "urged" that for Americans? Is an urge like a law or regulation? What weight does an urge have? I've got an urge to eat some ice cream...off to Swensen's I go.

 

 

I believe later today I may have an "urge" to use a toilet.

 

 

 

 

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

@skatewash in general news here under thailand .

 

wbr

roobaa01

I find no such article.  Care to provide a link?

[JimGant]

Quote

Well, first of all 1099s only come from regular brokerage accounts. If one such as me, also had Traditional IRAs or Roth IRAs those dividends and interest do NOT get reported on 1099s.  And those dividends and interest or gains or losses are NOT reported on the 1040 form.  So it may be challenging to prove one has such passive incomes. 

Yeah, but the Thais aren't interested in such income -- they want the income that shows up on your 1099's or 1040, i.e, the income available for buying fried rice. Sure, not all of it is available -- what's left after taxes, alimony, child support, whatever is another question. But one, unfortunately, best answered by showing money deposited to a Thai bank account, which is probably where we are headed. But they're certainly not interested in your reinvested IRA dividends in your income report -- not until it's distributed and available for spending. Then, of course, it will have a 1099 and 1040 trail -- which shouldn't be too hard for an Imm Off to follow. But, me thinks Immigration doesn't want to be in any form or shape in the income verification business. Thus, the Swiss example, if I were Big Joke, would be my choice.

[BobBKK]

It's obvious that anyone should prove income and the current US 'say what you want' is ridiculous and so it will probably change at some stage. To be fair it's up to the Brit Embassy whether they want to spend time doing letters or not, why should they? 

 

I would think if you pay your pension into a Thai bank surely that is PROOF?  otherwise sink 800k and forget it. I pay my pensions into Bangkok Bank (well above the 65k) and was thinking to change and release the 800k but I'm thinking again lol.

 

IF you have 65k+ coming in monthly can that be used as proof?  circumventing the Embassy???

[JimGant]

Quote

If all Embassies require their citizens to take the Oath before signing and then quote the particular law that indicates  swearing a false  Oath is a crime- and placing that statement on the Affidavit- I would hope this would satisfy Thai Imm. 

I don't pretend to understand the power of taking an oath in Thailand -- same as I don't understand the power of a spirit house. So, yeah, maybe the American example -- zilch proof but a raised right hand -- is regarded by the Thais as superior to the Brit example -- some proof to provide an initial speed bump -- but no raised right hand.

 

But somehow I feel the Swiss example is the most pragmatic -- government pensions only, thus almost ironclad verification, and no raised right hand. We'll see.

Edited October 13, 2018 by JimGant

[Pib]

20 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

What happened to "permission to remain"?

 

It's called an Extension of Stay.   When an extension of stay is approved immigration puts a stamp in your passport like below which uses the "Extension of Stay Permitted Up To" wording.  They put that date on the ............. line. 

 

 

And without pulling out my old/expired passport which showed when I entered Thailand around 10 years ago on my Retirement O-A Visa maybe the stamp they used at the airport used Permission to Remain wording. 

 

But current stamp wording used is Extension of Stay Permitted Up To.....

[watcharacters]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

It's called an Extension of Stay.   When an extension of stay is approved immigration puts a stamp in your passport like below which uses the "Extension of Stay Permitted Up To" wording.  They put that date on the ............. line. 

 

 

And without pulling out my old/expired passport which showed when I entered Thailand around 10 years ago on my Retirement O-A Visa maybe the stamp they used at the airport used Permission to Remain wording. 

 

But current stamp wording used is Extension of Stay Permitted Up To.....

 

I was just quoting and joking about the difference in wording on the verification letter and what many on this forum are quick to jump on.     ????

[Pib]

42 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

@pib coz us embassy does not provide letters of income anymore.

 

wbr

roobaa01

Durn....you better tell the U.S. Embassy that.  But until you do, they are still issuing income affidavits (a.k.a., letter of income).   

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/income-affidavit/   

 

If you  based your statement of some of the stuff you've read in the thread regarding the British Embassy ceasing the letters, well, there is a lot of incorrect, rumors, bar-stool type talk in that thread.

 

 

 

 

  

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Pib