Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[david555]

5 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Much less in charges than the cost of agent-fees, which is exactly why I am doubtful Thai-Imm will accept this. 

 

A stamp via an agent isn't illegal.  The bank letter used to get it is also not illegal.  But money given to immigration personnel by agents to get the seasoning waived on the agent's 1-day 800K loan, which is used to get the bank-letter, would be illegal.

But the dates not showing the 3 month seasoning ….that is another  maybe illegal thing ...

[sambum]

15 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I agree and there is always the possibility of using a general Embassy Affidavit- hand write in a statement indicating you are declaring xxx amount and the source and asking your Embassy to notarize it.  I can't see how any Embassy would refuse a notarization.  I have done this several times when I have need a notarize letter sent for Revenue Department (IRS); Child Support etc. Always accepted everywhere. Now whether the Thai Imm would accept it-in lieu of the pre printed form is unknown.

Good point, and one that should be looked at. It is similar to the American system in that the applicant is putting his name to it, and not just an Embassy official saying that the applicant has given him details of his income!

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

But the dates not showing the 3 month seasoning ….that is another  maybe illegal thing ...

Don't think so- as Thai Imm has the authority to  make exceptions whenever they deem fit- I won't comment on the  donation portion.

[david555]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

Don't think so- as Thai Imm has the authority to  make exceptions whenever they deem fit- I won't comment on the  donation portion.

Than we can close this whole tread as immigration can do what they want …...why batter  just go for ret ext. be sympathic …,and play it as Russian roulette …. I rest my case so... 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, sambum said:

Good point, and one that should be looked at. It is similar to the American system in that the applicant is putting his name to it, and not just an Embassy official saying that the applicant has given him details of his income!

I have used the Affidavit method several times for notarization needed . However, one poster indicated that the BE  no longer does Notarization and forces their citizens to use Thai Notaries.  Definitely not legal in the US but I wonder if there is a British barrister in Thailand who is an authorized Notary in the UK and could notarize an affidavit- Just a thought and would it be accepted by the Thai Imm.

[tingtongtourist]

29 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It is not philosophy games.  Usually before there is regulations or laws you have an intent on what the law / regulation will do.  If it turns out that it is not doing what it is suppose to be doing - you go back and you change the RULES.  The immigration finds out that the verification letter is not doing what it is suppose to be doing - and people are lying and not having verifiable income... they change the rules... in the end the non-immigrant (retirement) visa is nothing more than "long stay" tourist visa...  not permanent residency... they can and will change the rules to suit what they want out of it.  For some people, this may mean leaving and going back home or somewhere else.

Exactly! Its very strange all this uproar when the simple rules still remain

 

very ironic. foriegner constantly complain on Thailand and corruption but when the clampdown of lawbreaking hits them its very different.

 

Its not really that much. 400 or 800k.

take away the cost of a flight home, a hospital stay or 2, and a years expense you not left with much. 

 

Thailand suffered long enough the sexpats and paedos and guys wandering around Pattaya scratching the bottom of the pocket for 8baht for baht bus.

 

Sounds like Immigrations found out they are staying on false pretenses, have a dodgy income OR no income.

its all on them if they havent had a sound plan and budget to live in Thailand.

 

I will not be suprised if Thai IMMs has simply asked the BE for more honest transparent proofs of income and being the lazy bสstสrds they are, the embassy want nothing to do with it.

 

[flynn]

Everyone will have to bite the bullet and deposit 800000 baht in their accounts, my bank (K bank ) are offering 1.5 % interest, 

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Much less in charges than the cost of agent-fees, which is exactly why I am doubtful Thai-Imm will accept this. 

 

A stamp via an agent isn't illegal.  The bank letter used to get it is also not illegal.  But money given to immigration personnel by agents to get the seasoning waived on the agent's 1-day 800K loan, which is used to get the bank-letter, would be illegal.

you mean corruption is illegal in Thailand ? Well you live and learn....

[ukrules]

4 hours ago, rooster59 said:

The interview also revealed that the British Embassy Bangkok issues around 250 income certification letters each month.

About 3000 people per year.

 

She went on to say that the people using the money in the bank method vs the income letter from the embassy according to Thai immigration is about half and half for all British peole in Thailand using marriage or retirement extensions.

 

If this is accurate it means there's only 6000 British living in Thailand on these types of visas because we know there's only 3000 of these letters issued each year.

 

Somehow I thought it would be a lot more than that.

 

[Mazungu]

The American Embassy maybe going to change it's policy regarding its current income affidavit policies. Below is the email response I received from them on Thursday when I inquired about a possible change to their policy. 

 

 

"Thank you for your email.   The US Embassy’s current income affidavit policies can be found on our website: https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/. We are currently evaluating options regarding the future provision of this document."

[Suradit69]

44 minutes ago, Pib said:

the great majority of my spending is through use of my home country "credit" cards

I had similar thoughts last week when I charged baht 8500 at Fascino. I still mainly use cash for living expenses, but using credit cards for some things will earn me no credit (pun intended) with Thai immigrations if they want to scrutinize my contribution to the economy.

[digger70]

Why all the nonsense about the income letter, Get your THB 800000/400000 and forget about it ,If one can't scrape that together for 2or3 months  (in a thai bank account only in your name) one shouldn't be in Thailand. I don't have much money but I make sure that I've got my THB 800000 in a fixed account . All because I don't like to travel 1000 Klm one way to get 2 letters from 2 embassies (Dutch& AU)  just for a stupid letter and have to pay for that, and it means nothing.

[Exploring Thailand]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I have used the Affidavit method several times for notarization needed . However, one poster indicated that the BE  no longer does Notarization and forces their citizens to use Thai Notaries.  Definitely not legal in the US but I wonder if there is a British barrister in Thailand who is an authorized Notary in the UK and could notarize an affidavit- Just a thought and would it be accepted by the Thai Imm.

Yes. The BE has a list of Thai lawyers, who will perform the service. Dealing with them is like pulling teeth, but they do exist.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Why all the nonsense about the income letter, Get your THB 800000/400000 and forget about it ,If one can't scrape that together for 2or3 months  (in a thai bank account only in your name) one shouldn't be in Thailand. I don't have much money but I make sure that I've got my THB 800000 in a fixed account . All because I don't like to travel 1000 Klm one way to get 2 letters from 2 embassies (Dutch& AU)  just for a stupid letter and have to pay for that, and it means nothing.

It's not nonsense if you want to use an INCOME method. The bank account method you describe is a good option and it stands. But there are two other methods on the books --

 

Income method

 

Combination method 

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, flynn said:

Everyone will have to bite the bullet and deposit 800000 baht in their accounts, my bank (K bank ) are offering 1.5 % interest, 

Either that or have to desert your wife and kids and go live in a sh1t hole in blighty. I would chose Cambodia then I could still send something to my family or a long piece of rope, at least my family would get something from the life insurance.

[jesimps]

4 hours ago, TeaMonkey said:

 

Because the British Embassy are saying you don’t need the letters but Thai immigration are saying they do need the letters. Until all the immigration offices have a written exception clause that British citizens can just show bank statements it is going to be a mess.

Couldn't agree more, and until we do get something from them, I'm not going to make any moves. I'm fortunate in that I renewed my extension on 8 Oct, so even if I have to put money on deposit in a Thai bank, I still have nine months grace, thank goodness. Pity the poor beggars who's extension is due shortly. It must be an absolute nightmare for anyone whose passport renewal is also thrown into the mix.

I remember having a conversation with a group of friends on this subject quite a few years back and the general consensus was that we didn't expect the proof of income method to last much longer. Even if we have proof from our pension providers (and I do) it doesn't prove we're actually bringing the money into Thailand, and that of course is what the Thais want. I wouldn't be surprised if immigration changed the rule to require at least three months statements from a Thai bank showing 65,000 baht deposited from outside of the country. It would mean of course that we'd have to keep a sharp eye on the exchange rate because one statement falling short of this amount and we'd be beggared. 

I also wouldn't be surprised if the locals chose a much more complicated route forcing everyone to deposit a lump sum, in fact going on past performances, I'd say it's a definite possibility.

It's all conjecture of course and we'll all just have to wait to see which way the wind blows.

 

[digger70]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

It's not nonsense if you want to use an INCOME method. The bank account method you describe is a good option and it stands. But there are two other methods on the books --

 

Income method

 

Combination method 

I know that ,but as I said it's to much trouble for me so that's why I take the THB 800000 one

[flynn]

Just wait till the Australian embassy stops the stat declarations,


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[soalbundy]

I wonder if there is a higher official or anyone from BE on TV

[david555]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's not nonsense if you want to use an INCOME method. The bank account method you describe is a good option and it stands. But there are two other methods on the books --

 

Income method

 

Combination method 

Now , my question would be in case of the combination method …. depending the shortfall what would be the rules there for , as that depends what amount just is short , and seasoning or 12 months showing that sum for 3 month's…?

yeah let's make all a bit more confusing ...BTW I use the 800 K  ,but keep the combo in mind as plan B as one never can gamble on 1 horse

Edited October 13, 2018 by david555

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Yes. The BE has a list of Thai lawyers, who will perform the service. Dealing with them is like pulling teeth, but they do exist.

You would think that the letter could be outsourced. If British institutions are actually accepting Thai Lawyers as Notaries this letter situation would be a great money earner for a  Thai lawyer acting in behest of the Embassy- and they could negotiate directly with Thai Imm to accept the letter.  Quite surprised there is no British barrister resident in Thailand who can notarize UK docs.

[mikosan]

I've read so many posts, on so many different threads, relating to this, that I thought it was time for me to add my little bit.  Actually it doesn't YET apply to me, as I get proof of income documentation by completing a statutory declaration at the Australian High Commission, a legal document, in which, if I declare anything false, could lead to me being prosecuted in Australia.  However, I do see a time when those of us from countries, other than the UK, who rely upon proof of income for our retirement extensions, may well find themselves in a similar situation.

 

I can easily provide documentary proof of income, in excess of 65000 baht each month and I must spend too much, because each month I transfer more than that from my overseas bank account to my Thai bank account.  I prefer to do it that way and if necessary, I can even prove the transfers.  So I currently fulfil the requirements and believe I am absolutely legal.  However, if the Aussies were also to withdraw the facility of proof of income by statutory declaration, then maybe I would have a problem, as I am not currently in a position to leave 800k baht in a Thai bank account for 3 months prior to my extension application.

 

The simple solution is for the Thai authorities to allow proof of income by bank statements, proving in excess of 65000 was transferred to a Thai bank account monthly, or alternatively brought into the country some other way, by ATM withdrawals or whatever.  That might make life difficult for those persons who are declaring an income they do not have, that is not my problem, but maybe one of the causes of this latest situation.

 

Let's hope a solution is found one way or another very soon, before the problem spreads to include other nationalities.      

[david555]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Either that or have to desert your wife and kids and go live in a sh1t hole in blighty. I would chose Cambodia then I could still send something to my family or a long piece of rope, at least my family would get something from the life insurance.

if suicide is payable in the contract , which I doubt in Thailand

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You would think that the letter could be outsourced. If British institutions are actually accepting Thai Lawyers as Notaries this letter situation would be a great money earner for a  Thai lawyer acting in behest of the Embassy- and they could negotiate directly with Thai Imm to accept the letter.  Quite surprised there is no British barrister resident in Thailand who can notarize UK docs.

BUT it wouldn't be an embassy letter and the Thais seem fixated by that.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, david555 said:

if suicide is payable in the contract , which I doubt in Thailand

It is, after one year of being insured.

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, david555 said:

Now , my question would be in case of the combination method …. depending the shortfall what would be the rules there for as that depends what amount just is short , seasoning or 12 months showing that sum …? yeah let's make all a bit more confusing ...BTW I use the 800 K  ,but keep the combo in mind as plan B as one never can gamble 1 horse

A good example of how the status quo is A-OK. Stuff happens. Exchange rates change. The status quo allows for at least some flexibility to switch your planned method.

 

I'm going to repeat a suggestion here that doesn't seem popular but I still think makes massive sense.

 

For pensioners from all countries that have easily provable pensions for life from their governments, I suggest the Thais offer a fast pass lifetime service for such income streams. In other words, a place you go to show your documents proving the lifetime pension, then you get some kind of card good for life that can be used for the income or combo method. No embassy letters anymore if all you want to do is show that pension. No forced imports as the Brits might be starting with their games. 

 

Of the people on retirement extensions, I think such a program would be good (for life) for a significant  percentage of them. What percentage? I don't know. It seems to me easily at least 25 percent. 

 

This is something most other nations having retirement programs for foreigners do. They treat lifetime government issued pensions a special way, typically to be proven only ONCE for life. What's the point of proving a lifetime stream more often than ONCE in a lifetime? 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jingthing

[sambum]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

The blame is on the British Embassy otherwise every other embassy would be doing the same thing and they are not. I can still get my Stat Dec done at the Australian Embassy and they have no plans to change things Nothing has changed with the Thai Immigration Act.

I said that the British Embassy is "hugely to blame" for the way they are handling the affair, but that the Thai Immigration caused the problem by asking the British Embassy to do something that they are now not legally allowed to do i.e. access somebody's financial records. I agree that nothing has changed with the Thai Immigration Act - what has changed is the way that they are now implementing it. For years they accepted without question the Proof of Income letter - now they are asking the Embassy to do something unlawful.

 

See my earlier post #270 for additional comments, but do not think for one minute that I think that the British Embassy is doing the right thing by withdrawing this service!

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by sambum

[Russell17au]

This is a Commonwealth of Australia Statutory Declaration. Does the UK have such a document? If so maybe you could fill that out and get it witnessed by one of the lawyers that the British Embassy recommend. That may help some of you

 

CommonwealthStatutorydeclarationform.pdf

[ozmeldo]

None of you or your personal dramas matter to your embassies, of course myself included.

 

If you get arrested or have some major mishap how involved will the embassy be in assisting you? None. If your family member goes missing in a foreign country what will they do? Nothing. Because that is not the role of embassies. The essential role is to represent the positions and agenda of a particular nation. What sort of consular roles they may take on is up to the consulate.

 

The British embassy is no longer going to serve as the foil for fraud. The verification really can only be done for govt pensions.

 

In reality only pensions can be verified. It doesn't matter if you have 2 billion in investments today throwing off 2 million pounds. If tomorrow the market crashed, you might not make that 65k. But the Thai cops are not that smart and let everyone slide seeing 65k of income hit your bank account monthly. Presumably. One quick way to spot check everyone is to have everyone bring in their statements from their Thai banks. If they do not then the visa is cancelled immediately. They are overstay.

 

My hunch is 50% of you Brits don't have the 65k or the 800 or the 400! That's what all the crying is really about

 

 

[Exploring Thailand]

1 minute ago, Thaidream said:

You would think that the letter could be outsourced. If British institutions are actually accepting Thai Lawyers as Notaries this letter situation would be a great money earner for a  Thai lawyer acting in behest of the Embassy- and they could negotiate directly with Thai Imm to accept the letter.  Quite surprised there is no British barrister resident in Thailand who can notarize UK docs.

I think the problem is that the BE is now saying that the letter in its current form doesn't meet the Thai Immigration requirements. That obviously begs the question of why they are still issuing them, but that's my understanding of the rather garbled message from the spokesperson in the interview.  If that's the case, then the BE's view would be that there is no point in outsourcing the notarization because the document being notarized wouldn't satisfy Thai Immigration.

 

There are Thai lawyers who are licensed to notarize UK docs.  There are also some UK lawyers here who can perform the service.