Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[evadgib]

11 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Ive sent 3 and only had 1 reply to date which said nothing other than confirming their decision

Counting the number of Brits in these threads multiplied by the size and volume of emails subtracted by normal or prioritized workload might explain any delay. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by evadgib

[Exploring Thailand]

7 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

Someone on the other thread said that these are the requirements for converting to a non-O from another visa (tourist or 30 day stamp I assume); I don't know but that is what it seems to say at the top of the form. Does anyone have the equivalent for the marriage extension (and the retirement if it is indeed different to the above)?

Yes. That's correct. This is the first step in getting a retirement visa. These are the requirements to get a Non-O visa. Once you have the Non-O you can apply for the retirement extension.

 

If these requirements remain in place, and the British Embassy ceases issuing letters, then it will not be possible for anyone who doesn't already have a retirement visa to get one without having 800k in the bank.

[Just1Voice]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Is the US letter a letter written and signed by the consulate or an affidavit signed by the citizen ?

 

You can download the letter from the Consulate website, fill it in on your computer, print it out, then take it to the Consulate/Embassy, and they notarize it for you.

[SooKee]

5 minutes ago, salavan said:

Because the Brits like to stick their nose in everywhere it's not wanted. It's an inherited throw back from colonial rule royal Britannia Britannia rules the waves

LOL.  Way, WAAAY down the list below 'Team America - World Police'.

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

It depends on the legislation of the country.  Most western countries privacy and data laws do not allow sharing of information between departments with the exception of things like security.  I suspect you would have to go (as an individual) to the department / agency responsible for those pensions.  The Embassy itself would not be able to verify it, only certify that you as an individual have sworn in some sort of affidavit that it is true under penalty of falsifying documents.

 

You really DO NOT want those privacy laws removed or pretty well all your information is accessible to any government employee without a warrant.

Edited October 13, 2018 by bkkcanuck8

[csmith]

I don't understand why so much negativity towards the Brit.Embassy … they have made a decision, given reasons why they have made the decision and communicated that decision.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Just1Voice said:

You can download the letter from the Consulate website, fill it in on your computer, print it out, then take it to the Consulate/Embassy, and they notarize it for you.

So basically the US Embassy is not verifying it... and thus are not fulfilling the requirement for the Thai government.  It would not be valid for the purposes stated by the Thai government.

[Exploring Thailand]

7 minutes ago, Geck0 said:

or...

800k in the bank or...

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, csmith said:

I don't understand why so much negativity towards the Brit.Embassy … they have made a decision, given reasons why they have made the decision and communicated that decision.

 

Yes, they did the only honest thing they could do under current law.

[theoldgit]

2 minutes ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

Partly correct, some pensions are paid by the Government as either the Sate Pension or to retired Civil Servants, others are paid by numerous other pension providers. The Consular Staff may have the resources to check the validity of pension paid by the Government but not by other pension providers.

 

Of course not all the sources of income is from pensions, there are many others, the Consular Section seem to have taken a one size fits all approach and refused to veryfy them all.

 

 

 

[TeaMonkey]

1 minute ago, csmith said:

I don't understand why so much negativity towards the Brit.Embassy … they have made a decision, given reasons why they have made the decision and communicated that decision.

 

 

Because the British Embassy are saying you don’t need the letters but Thai immigration are saying they do need the letters. Until all the immigration offices have a written exception clause that British citizens can just show bank statements it is going to be a mess.

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Partly correct, some pensions are paid by the Government as either the Sate Pension or to retired Civil Servants, others are paid by numerous other pension providers. The Consular Staff may have the resources to check the validity of pension paid by the Government but not by other pension providers.

 

Of course not all the sources of income is from pensions, there are many others, the Consular Section seem to have taken a one size fits all approach and refused to veryfy them all.

 

 

 

The problem though that even with the State Pensions... or civil servants... is the Embassy itself (or foreign service) would have no access to the systems to verify it.  They can look at the paper and say it sort of looks official, but that is not what is being asked of them.

[Just1Voice]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

So basically the US Embassy is not verifying it... and thus are not fulfilling the requirement for the Thai government.  It would not be valid for the purposes stated by the Thai government.

In over 10 years I've never had the Consulate here in Chiang Mai ask me to actually provide proof of my income, which I could easily do.  They simply take my word for it.  And I think that therein lies the problem.  I know 2 guys who do not meet the minimum requirements, but get their Verification saying they do.  If they are forced to prove it, the are in a world of trouble.  I could be wrong, but I think this is the problem Imm wants to tackle.  If you're legal, prove it.  If you can't, take the next flight out.

 

[wgdanson]

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

[luckyluke]

"Will he / she accept British Citizens ?"

 

The Austrian consulate letter of income, issued in Pattaya, is written and signed by the consulate, it is not an Affidavit.

 

Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Luxembourgers, and maybe some more nationalities, can use their services.

 

As far as I know British citizens can't.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, Just1Voice said:

In over 10 years I've never had the Consulate here in Chiang Mai ask me to actually provide proof of my income, which I could easily do.  They simply take my word for it.  And I think that therein lies the problem.  I know 2 guys who do not meet the minimum requirements, but get their Verification saying they do.  If they are forced to prove it, the are in a world of trouble.  I could be wrong, but I think this is the problem Imm wants to tackle.  If you're legal, prove it.  If you can't, take the next flight out.

 

I would expect what those individuals are doing is illegal under US law and if it is ever looked into... could be in deep trouble (likely will never be, but could).  The thing is that whether they asked for the documents or not, there would be no mechanism to make sure the documents themselves are not forged -- and are legit.  In no way is that actually verifying.

[PAWNEESE]

20 minutes ago, csmith said:

I don't understand why so much negativity towards the Brit.Embassy … they have made a decision, given reasons why they have made the decision and communicated that decision.

 

The problem we have with the British Embassy is they have said   ..."You ( Thai Immigration ) want us to alter our procedures .. we wont. Because you asked we are now withdrawing ALL cooperation and from now on not help our citizens at all in this matter  ... British citizens well being not our problem .. we are only the British Embassy" "We could try and get Thai Immigration to say bank statement acceptable but we cant be bothered. Go ask/sort yourselves .. we have cocktail parties and expenses form to fill in"

 

They could carry on as before .. let Thailand Imm refuse to accept the letters not say .. you want us to change the way we do it. We are now gonna stamp our feet, throw a girly fit and not play any more.

Edited October 13, 2018 by PAWNEESE

[Expattaff1308]

5 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

Spot On & certainly acceptable..BUT until Immigration say that they are satisfied with a Bank Letter or Statements showing that over the year deposits of 400/800k Baht have been deposited in Mr Expats account equating to 40/65k per month then nothing has changed. Its not what the BE say but what is acceptable to the Immigration Dept.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[wgdanson]

8 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

Partly correct, some pensions are paid by the Government as either the Sate Pension or to retired Civil Servants, others are paid by numerous other pension providers. The Consular Staff may have the resources to check the validity of pension paid by the Government but not by other pension providers.

 

Of course not all the sources of income is from pensions, there are many others, the Consular Section seem to have taken a one size fits all approach and refused to veryfy them all.

 

 

 

Do you think the Consulate should go question Mr J Bloggs who rents my UK house from me, and ask him to give sworn evidence that he pays me £XXX per month?

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, keith101 said:

I cant see why the Embassy wont issue these letters as they are a part of the British Government and the Pensions are issued from the same Government , it should be a very simple matter to confirm the applicants identity and issue the statement . The other possibility is that they are just to lazy to do the job there being paid for .

Not all pensions come from the government and them verifying it is not that easy as it has privacy issues. They will have to get clearance for stuff like this.

[eggers]

The UK Embassy's response that they've acted after contact from Thai Immigration, yet, in contacting several other Embassies, they've had no contact or advice of change from Thai Immigration!

 

Time for Expats to petition both UK Embassy & UK Foreign Office requesting restoration of the service...

 

Or, adopt what other nationalities do & individual gets confirmation letter/s from sources of funding & includes with a Statutory Declaration that is signed by the individual & "witnessed" by the Embassy.. Simple!! 

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

The reasonably solution is to have the 90 day reports require a copy of your bank book showing continuing deposits from a foreign source.

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Spot On BUT until Immigration say that they are satisfied with a Bank Letter or Statements showing that over the year deposits of 400/800k Baht have been deposited in Mr Expats account equating to 40/65k per month then nothing has changed. Its not what the BE say but what is acceptable to the Immigration Dept.

Actually, if Immigration would accept 65k per month, after 9 months you would only have put 585k into your Thai bank instead of having to have 800k in month 9.

[ajarnmarc]

12 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

Why does the British Embassy or Brits in general have any involvement or concern about this situation  regarding Americans either way?

 

How does it matter to them?

 

 

This was my thinking exactly.

I even thought I had read a few years back about the UK embassy was closing down entirely. That there was to be no embassy here in Thailand to service the brits, 

was this not the case?

I remember them going on about that for some time.

 

For years the brits have been going on about how Americans can get an income verification letter, and how difficult it was for them to obtain one. 

 

Yet now that their Embassy has decided to stop issuing this declaration letter, 

we can all see that the brits didn't actually have such a hard time in getting this documents 

as they wanted us to believe... which we didn't care anyway, as every nationality has their 

own set of requirements, though they are mostly the same, there is some subtly differences.

 

Still they want to go on about how the laws have changed, when it hasn't; 

it is just their Embassy is no longer going to provide this service.

The Brits know this, but they are determined to create such an issue about it, 

until everyone has to do the process the same as them. 

This would appears to be the case now.

 

The Brits should be concerned about how they can go about the alternative route of supporting their application, instead of trying so hard to bring this issue across the board 

for other nationalities. 

 

They continue to scan the documents from Immigration stating this letter is needed, 

when it's not. They know full well they can submit the visa extension with supporting docs 

from a bank account, and that the declaration letter was simply an additional docs to support 

their extension application.

 

The immigration officials always reserve their right to require any

documents which they see fit, on a case by case basis. 

The declaration letter alone does not guarantee you don't need to submit documents 

verifying funds in your bank account.

However if you submit the documents showing the funds in your bank for at least 3 months prior to application, it is not likely that the immigration official is going to ask for a declaration letter as well. So from my 20 years of applying for extension here, it's the documents from my 

bank that hold the most support for the application to be processed & hopefully approved.

 

Nothing in Thailand is set in stone on what is actually required for anything.

This is what makes living in Thailand so adventurous, and yes sometimes frustrating.

Yet we all figure out a way to overcome obstacles, and enjoy our lives as best we can.

 

So it would be great if the Brits could stop trying to generalize things and just go on about how they can process their own extensions.

 

Or is that too much to consider?

 

 

 

 

[Expattaff1308]

Quote

Actually, if Immigration would accept 65k per month, after 9 months you would only have put 585k into your Thai bank instead of having to have 800k in month 9.

But over the year it should total 400/800k and equate to 40/65k.

So if you have only a history of 9 mths its 585k divided by 9 = 65k

Edited October 13, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[Pedrogaz]

250 a month is not too many...about 3000 people affected then.

[ajnamoon]

Well after listening    to the radio  interview  with Vice British Consul at British Embassy    the only positive thing that came out of the interview  was that the Embassy pension letter is valid for 6   months

So anyone  who has extension due in June 2019  can still apply for pension letter  ,which gives them an year   to save up their 400  or 800000 baht in thai bank account

The vice consul said they receive 3000 pension letter applications per year

 

Bottom line is the British Embassy  has NEVER   verified  personal pension incomes

The only thing they verify is that you are a British Citizen   in pension letter 

So start saving   you may get another years grace

[Exploring Thailand]

9 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters.

It wouldn't because the letter states :

 

1. Mr X has stated that he has income of £x.
2. Mr. X has shown us documents that state that he has income of £x

both of which are true.

[Thailand]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

If immigration confirms that then there is no problem. Until there is a statement from immigration the confusion will continue.

[Thailand]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

At present,(until 12th Dec) the Consulate will issue a letter saying that Mr.UK.Expat told them, and showed Bank Statements to confirm, that they have a minimum of Bht 65,000 per month going into their UK (or other country) bank account. The Consular workers CANNOT go to every pension provider, rent payer, investment company etc, to verify that these figures are genuine. If there was any investigation into any 'financial irregularities' the Consulate would be legally responsible. So that's why they are stopping issuing these letters. The USA is different in that Mr. USA.Expat SWEARS that the information is genuine and if anything is found to be wrong, the Expat is responsible. 

The Consulate now says that the Immigration will accept a regular deposit of at least Bht 65,000 per month into a Thai bank account, easily verified because it will say FTT (Foreign Transfer) on the bank statement or bank book. Is it that easy or not? 

The Bht 800,000 for at least three months has always been and will stay as an alternative.

If immigration confirms that then there is no problem. Until there is a statement from immigration the confusion will continue.