Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[sambum]

14 hours ago, bigginhill said:

is 800,000 alot? Because I'm not married.

Enough of the "I'm alright Jack" please.

800,000 baht is equal to about 19,000 British Pounds, and to me a large sum of money to lay my hands on and leave alone for 3 months in a Thai bank ! I have that amount coming in - but over the course of one year, and I use that money to live off, which obviously means it is being spent in Thailand!!

 

Also, if you have 800,000 a year income going into a UK bank, the BE letter used to "substantiate" that. Now that the BE is to discontinue the letters, it appears that the income has to go into a THAI bank, and has had to be going in for one year (apparently). (And another point - sorry slightly off topic, but the requirement is 800,000 baht for a single person. If you are married to a Thai national the amount is 400,000 baht - surely it costs more money to feed and clothe 2 or more people? Is this yet another instance of Thai "anti logic" like putting up the price of beer when your bar has no customers?)

 

My question is this - will Thai Immigration accept copies of Bank statements going back one year from a UK bank as Proof of Income if accompanied by a Bank letter? 

 

Somehow I suspect not - the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank for 3 months seems to be another moneyspinner for the Thai government/banking system - especially when the exchange rate against the British Pound is so low!

Edited October 17, 2018 by sambum

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

It has been said several times already that this would prove nothing. You could use the same 65'000B month after month, by sending it to your bank in Thailand and then sending it back to your UK bank. That would not prove an income of 12x65'000B.

Also why would people continue to use the 800k method where they have to keep it during 3 months, when they could do by 1/12 of this amount sent every month ?

Yes.  And consider faked stat-dec or other Embassy letter risks criminal penalty.  Sending money in circles doesn't.  This change would lower the bar - not raise it.

 

Given I think the required 65K/mo is too high, given the cost-of-living in Thailand.  And given every expat here importing foreign-capital is helping the Thai economy, "just show 65K coming in every month," could permit more people (who won't risk prison-time for a faked-income letter) to simply show a bank-statement with rotated-money, instead.  But ...

 

22 hours ago, meechai said:

You know an old method may be closed..you really  think no substitutes will  be allowed? 

I suspect those pushing to eliminate embassy-letters (assuming this is the case beyond the BE - not yet proven) have no plans to allow "show income in bank-book" proof in lieu of income-letters, per what the BE suggests. 

 

More likely, it would be anticipated that those affected by any change in policy would use the substitute which is already common, and has been allowed for many years - "agent-sponsored" extensions.  The beneficiaries of that scheme may already be picking out new cars, homes, etc.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, sambum said:

(And another point - sorry slightly off topic, but the requirement is 800,000 baht for a single person. If you are married to a Thai national the amount is 400,000 baht - surely it costs more money to feed and clothe 2 or more people? Is this yet another instance of Thai "anti logic" like putting up the price of beer when your bar has no customers?)

The better question is, why does someone married to a Thai have to "prove income" every year for permission to stay with their family?  I can see it for the first year's extension, but should not be an issue after that.  And why not PR automatically after 5 years or so, provided the marriage remains intact for the duration and the foreigner isn't getting in criminal-trouble?  But, I won't hold my breath for this.

 

It's only foreign-men who have to show the money when married to a Thai woman - not the other way around.  And it's not as if many Thai women are going to pay the way of a deadbeat farang husband for years - or many women on Earth, for that matter.  And if she is that rich, and he is that handsome - who cares if she does?

[vinegarbase]

20 hours ago, Spidey said:

Actually a number of us have done this. Personally, I contacted the Secretary of State for the FCO, Jeremy Hunt, to make him aware of the problem. No reply as yet.

Contact some of the big UK news networks and let them know what the Embassy is doing to you all. Please feel free to throw in some harsh words about the 24 hr address reporting and 90 day check ins as well. We need more global bad publicity about these policies. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by vinegarbase

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, vinegarbase said:

Contact some of the big UK news networks and let them know what the Embassy is doing to you all. Please feel free to throw in some harsh words about the 24 hr address reporting and 90 day check ins as well. We need more global bad publicity about these policies. 

<cant be bothered!>

Edited October 17, 2018 by evadgib

[lamyai3]

18 hours ago, HHTel said:

Not sure when that was but 800,000 is between 19,500 - 20,000 pounds.  That's a lot of money to tie up.

Must've been around 2004-5, only time the rate has been 70 plus other than briefly during the financial crisis in 1997. 

[graemeaylward]

I have heard of people who have been given the contact for these agents from an IO.
 
I needed a dodge for a completely different reason and the IO dealing with me, leaned into me and whispered, "just go to Key Visa and they will solve your problem".

An IO at my office told my wife that he would sort it for 20,000 baht! But this was the week before the "No Tips" signs went up :-)

Sent from my Lenovo A3000-H using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[kiwikeith]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:35 PM, TeaMonkey said:

Still the question of why it is only why it’s only the British Embassy taking this action as the others do not do anything different. 

Wht can,t you get a letter from your pension office in England.

I can go to social welfare and request a letter from them and they give me a print out of my yearly pension and stamp it.

You don,t have to be there if you appoint a friend as an agent and they can get it for you.

Should be the same in UK.

 

[soalbundy]

19 minutes ago, kiwikeith said:

Wht can,t you get a letter from your pension office in England.

I can go to social welfare and request a letter from them and they give me a print out of my yearly pension and stamp it.

You don,t have to be there if you appoint a friend as an agent and they can get it for you.

Should be the same in UK.

 

and the embassy letter demanded by IO ? ''We don't want your frigging social security letter, where's the embassy letter''?

[Expattaff1308]

A reply from the Embassy...

 

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. The services which are provided by the British Embassy can be found here; https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:  

at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

 

Regards

 

Sarah Peth  Deputy Consul & Head of Operations

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

A reply from the Embassy...

 

I am sorry to learn that you are unhappy with the announcement that we intend to withdraw from providing a Pension letter in Thailand from 1 January 2019.  I appreciate the difficulties that can accompany such a change in services.

 

Our British Embassy in Bangkok currently issues a pension letter as a supporting document for British nationals applying for a Thai retirement or marriage visa application.  The Thai authorities have confirmed that they want the British Embassy to verify the income of British nationals which they are unable to do.  They/We would refer such requests to the issuing authority.   Therefore, the current letter does not fulfil the Thai authorities requirements so we need to stop issuing it so it is not misinterpreted as verification.

 

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. The services which are provided by the British Embassy can be found here; https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-thailand#services-we-provide-in-thailand

 

When withdrawing a service we do look at what other options are available to the customer to assist them in meeting the requirements of the receiving authority.  There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

 

To assist customers, our Embassy in Bangkok has published details on their website of the change in service and what option is available to customers and what those requirements are.  Further details can be found at:  

at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-embassy-bangkok-to-stop-certification-of-income-letters

 

Regards

 

Sarah Peth  Deputy Consul & Head of Operations

Thanks for nothing Sarah

[Esso49]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

Thanks for nothing Sarah

Unbelievable ,  especially so as your cut and paste included different Fonts.  Perhaps you should attach a pdf of the original letter from the BE so as to illustrate it's authenticity, much like all those pension statements sent into them ????

[Jingthing]

Interesting detail in that reply about the bank account method.

Note well, unlike the interview with the Pattaya radio station there was no mention of the cockamamie idea that Thai immigration had "confirmed" it was going to be OK to show foreign deposits of claimed income MONTHLY in lieu of the letter. Instead they say, rather vaguely --

 

Quote

There is an alternative for customers to demonstrate that they meet the financial requirement for their retirement or marriage visa by holding a Thai bank account showing the minimum funds needed.   

Note the word HOLDING. Not IMPORTING. That strongly implies they are referring to the currently existing and totally accepted by immigration BANK ACCOUNT method. Those funds must be seasoned.

 

Reading between the lines, it seems to me there is a strong hint in that reply that the BE is backing away from their ill advised effort to try to change Thai immigration law (with the full import of INCOME proposal).

 

Brits that can't make the cutoff for letters (they're good for six months after issue) had best start preparing to use the money in the bank method, SEASONED.

 

Good luck. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jingthing

[Expattaff1308]

7 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

Unbelievable ,  especially so as your cut and paste included different Fonts.  Perhaps you should attach a pdf of the original letter from the BE so as to illustrate it's authenticity, much like all those pension statements sent into them ????

Send me your email and I will forward it to you I cut and pasted to take off my personal details sorry this doesnt suit you and BTW it was an email not a letter.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Expattaff1308

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. 

Circular Logic.  They could have at least spread it into a couple sentences with context to make it look like a valid assertion.

 

Quote

I am unable to walk to the store because I don't walk to the store.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by JackThompson

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Circular Logic.  They could have at least spread it into a couple sentences with context to make it look like a valid assertion.

No, she is speaking the truth, it could have been shorter for brevity :- ''We don't want to give you a stat dec''.

[pontious]

19 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide. 

Then make it a service you provide.

[Esso49]

14 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

Send me your email and I will forward it to you I cut and pasted to take off my personal details sorry this doesnt suit you and BTW it was an email not a letter.

As I said attach it to your post,  that way you can share with all of TV members, rather than just one. Easy to blank out the personnal details in a pdf

Edited October 18, 2018 by Esso49

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

As I said attach it to your post,  that way you can share with all of TV members, rather than just one. Easy to blank out the personnal details in a pdf

why can't you just take his word for it? what do you want a stat dec?

[Expattaff1308]

25 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

As I said attach it to your post,  that way you can share with all of TV members, rather than just one. Easy to blank out the personnal details in a pdf

You can always write to the Embassy yourself if you dont believe me

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, Expattaff1308 said:

We are unable to provide a Statutory Declaration  to fulfil these requirements as this is not a service which we provide.

Well I'll take a crack at this: The US Embassy affidavit is sworn in the physical presence of a US Consular official and not submitted remotely by mail as with the current UK system. The UK Embassy is unable or unwilling or does not have the resources to switch to an in-presence mode as does the US.

[cleopatra2]

54 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No, she is speaking the truth, it could have been shorter for brevity :- ''We don't want to give you a stat dec''.

A stat declaration is a statement of fact without evidence, as such it would still not satisfy the requirements to verify income.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, JLCrab said:

Well I'll take a crack at this: The US Embassy affidavit is sworn in the physical presence of a US Consular official and not submitted remotely by mail as with the current UK system. The UK Embassy is unable or unwilling or does not have the resources to switch to an in-presence mode as does the US.

nor do they want to. Perhaps as commonwealth members the Brits could use the Australian or Canadian embassy, it's worth ask8ng.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

A stat declaration is a statement of fact without evidence, as such it would still not satisfy the requirements to verify income.

I don't think the IO is interested in facts, they want a nice document with a pretty stamp on it.

[billd766]

6 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Must've been around 2004-5, only time the rate has been 70 plus other than briefly during the financial crisis in 1997. 

Back in 1997/98 the Thai baht was over 80 and nearly 90 for 1 GBP.

 

It was great.

 

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&amp;C1=GBP&amp;C2=THB&amp;DD1=01&amp;MM1=05&amp;YYYY1=1997&amp;B=1&amp;P=&amp;I=1&amp;DD2=01&amp;MM2=05&amp;YYYY2=1998&amp;btnOK=Go!

 

 

[JackThompson]

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Back in 1997/98 the Thai baht was over 80 and nearly 90 for 1 GBP.

It was great.

Not so great for Thais, though.  Granted, our expat-spending helped, funding businesses/jobs, and our foreign-currency injections prevented an even more extreme fall of their national currency.

Edited October 18, 2018 by JackThompson

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Interesting detail in that reply about the bank account method.

Note well, unlike the interview with the Pattaya radio station there was no mention of the cockamamie idea that Thai immigration had "confirmed" it was going to be OK to show foreign deposits of claimed income MONTHLY in lieu of the letter. Instead they say, rather vaguely --

 

Note the word HOLDING. Not IMPORTING. That strongly implies they are referring to the currently existing and totally accepted by immigration BANK ACCOUNT method. Those funds must be seasoned.

 

Reading between the lines, it seems to me there is a strong hint in that reply that the BE is backing away from their ill advised effort to try to change Thai immigration law (with the full import of INCOME proposal).

 

Brits that can't make the cutoff for letters (they're good for six months after issue) had best start preparing to use the money in the bank method, SEASONED.

 

Good luck. 

I took it to suggest 65k p/m would be OK but I won't believe it until reported from people that do it next year. If families end up being separated UK courts and services can expect to be very busy...

[Jingthing]

I took it to suggest 65k p/m would be OK but I won't believe it until reported from people that do it next year. If families end up being separated UK courts and services can expect to be very busy...

Nothing in that wording to support thinking showing imports would be OK. The word holding shows that. That's what people already do that is accepted in every office and no need to show income or import income or embassy letter. Just show the required bank balance seasoned plus a bank letter.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I took it to suggest 65k p/m would be OK but I won't believe it until reported from people that do it next year. If families end up being separated UK courts and services can expect to be very busy...

i doubt any expat with limited income is going to sue a government department that argues it is being asked to provide a service it cannot provide.

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

i doubt any expat with limited income is going to sue a government department that argues it is being asked to provide a service it cannot provide.

How about their right to family life?

Edited October 18, 2018 by evadgib