Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

The embassy said about 3000 people apply for this letter each year, approximately 250 per month.

 

Immigration said about British people that about 50% of people use this embassy issued letter and 50% use the money in the bank method.

 

Where are you getting 100,000 from ? Based on what I've heard it's more like 6000 people in total and that includes both married and retirees.

Just google 'demographics in Thailand'.  You'll find the figure is 85,000 back in 2010!  There's a lot more than 6,000 in Pattaya alone.

There's around 5,000 live here in Hua Hin.

[ukrules]

13 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Just google 'demographics in Thailand'.  You'll find the figure is 85,000 back in 2010!  There's a lot more than 6,000 in Pattaya alone.

There's around 5,000 live here in Hua Hin.

I'm talking about the people who need the extension letters + those who put 800k in the bank, ie, the retired and you're talking about all the others which includes people with work permits, business visas, etc, etc, etc.

 

This letter from the embassy issue affects 3000 people which is like you point out pretty much nothing compared to everyone else who lives here under arrangements which have nothing to do with the embassy letter so they will be 100% unaffected by this change.

 

Also, I suspect that 85k figure will no longer be accurate, my guess is there's much less here now than 8 years ago.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by ukrules

[Thaidream]

While the petition is proactive it is going to take a long time to get significant numbers.

IMHO- another approach maybe to ask the BE for a stay of execution and asking them to consider a more reasoned study of the situation so as to assist their citizens find and prepare for alternative methods to meet the Thai Imm  requirement-

 

-BE in the neighboring countries does  allow  Stat Decs and sworn affidavits- wold BE Bangkok consider using this method or at the least pave the way for it's citizens use neighboring countries BE

 

-Grandfathering the current users of the letter- keep issuing it for them but not new requestors

 

-Consider letting  Notarized Affidavits be issued by  local law firms and  working out a payment agreement where the BE gets a certain percentage.  Two hundred fifty (25) letters at 52 Pounds per generates  a little over ^ million Thai Baht per year.

 

-Other possibilities

 

An email to the  Embassy Officer  working this issue or the Ambassador  with various proposals may do something

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

While the petition is proactive it is going to take a long time to get significant numbers.

IMHO- another approach maybe to ask the BE for a stay of execution and asking them to consider a more reasoned study of the situation so as to assist their citizens find and prepare for alternative methods to meet the Thai Imm  requirement-

 

-BE in the neighboring countries does  allow  Stat Decs and sworn affidavits- wold BE Bangkok consider using this method or at the least pave the way for it's citizens use neighboring countries BE

 

-Grandfathering the current users of the letter- keep issuing it for them but not new requestors

 

-Consider letting  Notarized Affidavits be issued by  local law firms and  working out a payment agreement where the BE gets a certain percentage.  Two hundred fifty (25) letters at 52 Pounds per generates  a little over ^ million Thai Baht per year.

 

-Other possibilities

 

An email to the  Embassy Officer  working this issue or the Ambassador  with various proposals may do something

Make enough noise and the truth will eventually out.

[certacito]

5 hours ago, richiejom said:

So if its 250 per month, how do they not have the resources to verify 250 incomes... doesn't sound like a lot of work to me (thats 8 phone calls a day)

 

Really? What if the person has multiple income streams? What about data protection issues, or are you saying that the consular section is above the law?

 

And of course, which companies in the west are open when the consular section is here?

 

Ridiculous proposition.

[marcusarelus]

10 minutes ago, certacito said:

 

Really? What if the person has multiple income streams? What about data protection issues, or are you saying that the consular section is above the law?

 

And of course, which companies in the west are open when the consular section is here?

 

Ridiculous proposition.

If data protection was an issue why not all BE's instead of Thailand only. 

[evadgib]

40 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

If data protection was an issue why not all BE's instead of Thailand only. 

Has immigration elsewhere applied thumbscrews too?

(Demanded guarantee!)

[certacito]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

If data protection was an issue why not all BE's instead of Thailand only. 

 

Please list all the British consular sections that confirm incomes.

Edited October 19, 2018 by certacito

[Thaidream]

7 minutes ago, certacito said:

Please list all the British consular sections that confirm incomes.

None,   However, there are many who will allow a citizen to use an affidavit or Statutory Declaration sworn under Oath to make   a statement and this statement could be  an income statement.  

 

Most Western Embassies have no direct access to income information due to Data Protection or Privacy Acts. The applicant gets proof with written documentation showing amounts and source from either Government Pensions; Private Pensions; Military Pensions.   If they use direct Deposits to their banks- a bank statement can verify the amounts and source.  If they don't a check copy can be used.

[certacito]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

However, there are many who will allow a citizen to use an affidavit or Statutory Declaration sworn under Oath to make   a statement and this statement could be  an income statement.  

 

But according to the BE, Immigration want more than that, more than the consular staff are able to do, and that is why the service has stopped. Quite possible it may stop at other embassies too.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, certacito said:

But according to the BE, Immigration want more than that, more than the consular staff are able to do, and that is why the service has stopped. Quite possible it may stop at other embassies too

I am sure Thai Imm would like a fool proof system- None exists- One of the issues  IMHO with the BE is that they do not use a Stat Dec in which their citizens state under Oath with penalty of perjury that the info is correct.

 

Most of the other  Embassies use a Stat Dec or affidavit sworn to with penalty of perjury- that makes the applicant subject to  a crime if they lie.

 

It should be noted that the  BE in Hanoi and Phenom Penh do allow citizens to make statements under Oath and add a disclaimer that they can attest to the veracity of the statement.  This could be done in Bangkok and in essence it tells Thai Imm that is the best that can be done .   Someone- might want to ask the BE why they can't adopt the same system other BE use.

[Expattaff1308]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I am sure Thai Imm would like a fool proof system- None exists- One of the issues  IMHO with the BE is that they do not use a Stat Dec in which their citizens state under Oath with penalty of perjury that the info is correct.

 

Most of the other  Embassies use a Stat Dec or affidavit sworn to with penalty of perjury- that makes the applicant subject to  a crime if they lie.

 

It should be noted that the  BE in Hanoi and Phenom Penh do allow citizens to make statements under Oath and add a disclaimer that they can attest to the veracity of the statement.  This could be done in Bangkok and in essence it tells Thai Imm that is the best that can be done .   Someone- might want to ask the BE why they can't adopt the same system other BE use.

When I asked I was told it was not a service they offer...

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1062320-yet-more-confusion-over-the-removal-of-income-certification-letter-for-british-expats/?page=65

[Joe Mcseismic]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

All this is fine IF you have the 800,000 baht that you can tie up. Many don't and I qualify on the income using the BE letter.

 

However as the BE no longer wishes to supply that letter what do I do now?

Could you not for the first year borrow 800k in time to season it.

Then, use this to pay back the loan and for living expenses whilst saving your retirement income for next years 800k? Might have to cut your standard of living for the first year.

[Joe Mcseismic]

4 hours ago, HHTel said:

Just google 'demographics in Thailand'.  You'll find the figure is 85,000 back in 2010!  There's a lot more than 6,000 in Pattaya alone.

There's around 5,000 live here in Hua Hin.

Yes, but are they ALL on retirement and marriage visas/extensions?

How many on Non-Imm B, Non-Imm OA, TV multiple entry, Elite card etc. etc.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Joe Mcseismic

[certacito]

18 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It should be noted that the  BE in Hanoi and Phenom Penh do allow citizens to make statements under Oath and add a disclaimer that they can attest to the veracity of the statement.  This could be done in Bangkok and in essence it tells Thai Imm that is the best that can be done

 

OK, it is pointless to say what happens in other countries, you may have noticed they have different laws to Thailand.

 

Immigration told the BE that they want the incomes verified, that is why the service has stopped. Statements under oath are not verified and as such would not satisfy what immigration has told the BE they want.

[HHTel]

I don't know the numbers but there are very many who get a new non-o every year which of course doesn't require any  interaction with the BE.

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

While the petition is proactive it is going to take a long time to get significant numbers.

IMHO- another approach maybe to ask the BE for a stay of execution and asking them to consider a more reasoned study of the situation so as to assist their citizens find and prepare for alternative methods to meet the Thai Imm  requirement-

 

-BE in the neighboring countries does  allow  Stat Decs and sworn affidavits- wold BE Bangkok consider using this method or at the least pave the way for it's citizens use neighboring countries BE

 

-Grandfathering the current users of the letter- keep issuing it for them but not new requestors

 

-Consider letting  Notarized Affidavits be issued by  local law firms and  working out a payment agreement where the BE gets a certain percentage.  Two hundred fifty (25) letters at 52 Pounds per generates  a little over ^ million Thai Baht per year.

 

-Other possibilities

 

An email to the  Embassy Officer  working this issue or the Ambassador  with various proposals may do something

Your paragraph 3.

 

So, you are quite willing to slam the door on new married couples and retirees as long as you get what you want.

 

You're as bad as the poster esso49 who wants all the immoral, whore-mongering retirees to pay 50,000 Bt for their visa just so that the married, fine upstanding pillars of virtue can get their visa

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, certacito said:

 

OK, it is pointless to say what happens in other countries, you may have noticed they have different laws to Thailand.

 

Immigration told the BE that they want the incomes verified, that is why the service has stopped. Statements under oath are not verified and as such would not satisfy what immigration has told the BE they want.

Why did they only tell the BE?  No others are following the BE example.  Do you have any corroborating testimony of what the BE was told by Thai Immigration?  Maybe I missed it. 

[Thaidream]

52 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

So, you are quite willing to slam the door on new married couples and retirees as long as you get what you want.

Would you rather have no letter or a compromise - this was a suggestion among others- it would not be my first choice.

 

The best choice is to reinstate the letter as a Stat Dec- the same as is done in Hanoi Vietnam and other places.

 

Stop trying to shoot the messenger- especially one who is not British and thus has no skin in the game.  Save your vitriol for  those who are changing a system that has worked for  decades and has offered no solution .  The Thais have changed nothing- they still want the letter.   They may want more- but a polite- this is what we can do- would have sufficed.

[billd766]

11 hours ago, HHTel said:

Not counting border countries (and China), Brits form the largest number of expats here followed by the USA with half that number.  I can't believe that 100,00 British expats are going to be left high and dry with the only real solution being the lump sum (dead money) being in the bank.  I'm sure a workable alternative will emerge.

 

I really hope so.

[billd766]

10 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

Send the link to every Brit you know. Ask them to sign it if they agree.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

I just put it on my facebook page.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, certacito said:

 

But according to the BE, Immigration want more than that, more than the consular staff are able to do, and that is why the service has stopped. Quite possible it may stop at other embassies too.

And it is equally possible that it will not stop.

 

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Could you not for the first year borrow 800k in time to season it.

Then, use this to pay back the loan and for living expenses whilst saving your retirement income for next years 800k? Might have to cut your standard of living for the first year.

 

OK, will you lend it to me?

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Could you not for the first year borrow 800k in time to season it.

Then, use this to pay back the loan and for living expenses whilst saving your retirement income for next years 800k? Might have to cut your standard of living for the first year.

If you were able to borrow the sterling equivalent of the whole 800,000 baht for one year, the amount borrowed including interest would be about 20,000 sterling. To pay all that back in one year and still be in a position to dispense with the loan in year 2, I doubt if this works for anybody. Maybe a lot smaller amounts. What most do in practice, who lack access to capital, is use an agent.

[Kwasaki]

12 hours ago, HHTel said:

Not counting border countries (and China), Brits form the largest number of expats here followed by the USA with half that number.  I can't believe that 100,00 British expats are going to be left high and dry with the only real solution being the lump sum (dead money) being in the bank.  I'm sure a workable alternative will emerge.

There is already an alternative and more to it than than, I'm married so show 400,000 for 3 months I don't see it as dead money, I use it in the year and top it up before the next year balance.

If I peg it it's Mrs money. 

If you have problem now because you were showing 40,000 per month income for marriage and 65,000 for retirement you can afford a loan of the money over so many years.

There will be no alternative with petitions the same as it was with the frozen pension petition that was arranged.

Sort yourself out now if you want to stay don't wait.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Kwasaki

[Rimmer]

A troll post/general flame have been removed also a reply

[dick dasterdly]

Belatedly realised it was not a good idea to respond to the poster.

Edited October 19, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[CharlieH]

Response to a removed troll post has been removed

[Kadilo]

Any chance of keeping this thread on topic for the many many worried ex pats looking in for any good advice/updates as opposed to the constant bickering, point scoring dross by some. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Would you rather have no letter or a compromise - this was a suggestion among others- it would not be my first choice.

 

The best choice is to reinstate the letter as a Stat Dec- the same as is done in Hanoi Vietnam and other places.

 

Stop trying to shoot the messenger- especially one who is not British and thus has no skin in the game.  Save your vitriol for  those who are changing a system that has worked for  decades and has offered no solution .  The Thais have changed nothing- they still want the letter.   They may want more- but a polite- this is what we can do- would have sufficed.

Yes, the Thais have changed something. They have told the British Embassy that they want them to VERIFY the claims of income, which the BE cannot do. It is Thai immigration that started all this.

I'm not shooting a messenger. I'm shooting someone who suggested a totally selfish solution to the problem, first choice, or not.

[Joe Mcseismic]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

And it is equally possible that it will not stop.

 

 

OK, will you lend it to me?

I was thinking more of a bank, either here, or in your home country.