Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[Spidey]

50 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

German proverb, 'things aren't as hot as they're eaten'. The agents will continue to thrive because its a money spinner they've become used to, it has to be low key, by word of mouth,''ring up this number, he can help with this difficult situation''

The agents aren't the only ones in this equation. Requires complicity from the IOs, which is where Big Joke is likely to focus his crackdown.

[Spidey]

Just now, HHTel said:

Of course it's their problem equally.  

Why is it the problem of TI? Do they care if British citizens can no longer use the income method to obtain their visa extensions? They don't see it as a problem that they have created. As far as TI are concerned the British Embassy have created this problem and it's up to them to solve it.

 

TI are probably having a good laugh at the BE and the dilemma that they have put their citizens in.

[HHTel]

The BE have stated what the TI are demanding.  If that's not true then I would expect TI to come out and say so.  Or maybe they're busy formulating a 'defamation' case for the BE!!

Unless TI denies what the BE have said the it must be true!

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, HHTel said:

The BE have stated what the TI are demanding.  If that's not true then I would expect TI to come out and say so.  Or maybe they're busy formulating a 'defamation' case for the BE!!

Unless TI denies what the BE have said the it must be true!

of course they have to demand verification, this is what the letters are all about, they know it's a compromise but it works, they aren't going to come out and say we don't demand verification, the house of cards would be exposed. The BE wont play ball anymore, up to them, nothing to do with TI.

Edited October 26, 2018 by soalbundy

[Sheryl]

Then why is no other embassy going down the same route as the BE, particularly those requiring far less evidence than the BE? e.g. US Embassy.

 

Are you saying that other embassies are incapable of "thinking about the process?

There is a report from Bangkok immigration (CW) of someone being told they will soon stop accepting letters from US Embassy. See separate thread.

 

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[Spidey]

Just now, Sheryl said:

There is a report from Bangkok immigration (CW) of someone being told they will soon stop accepting letters from US Embassy. See seoarate thread.

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Not quite. This is a report from one person who visited said IO and spoke to one officer. Not actually anything official from Bangkok Immigration.

[HHTel]

Which is why TI needs to state officially what their requirements are.

Currently, there are differing reports from different offices.  If left unchecked then some offices will refuse embassy letters next year and some will accept them.

As I've said, it really needs to be clarified by TI.

Edited October 26, 2018 by HHTel
correction

[HHTel]

It seems that the US embassy have now stated officially that they will cease the affidavit route as of January 2019.

 

Watch this space!!

[Sheryl]

This is from the Notarial Service section of the Australian Embassy's website as at today 25/10/2018.
"We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.
The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged."
Some people are claiming that the Australian Embassy may also stop issuing income letters, but Australia have never issued these letters, it uses a different scheme to both the UK and the USA and it is not changing the procedure that is in place either now or in the future.
So those that are saying that Australia may change are not checking the facts and their claims are incorrect

Actually if a statuatory declaration is what I think it is, that is what the US Embassy does as well. They have never done any sort of verification, it is just a statement made under oath. We have had 1 report from someone told by a Bangkok IO that these letters from US Embassy will not be accepted after the end of the year.

Between that and BE claim that it is TI requirements that led them to stop issuing letters it does sound like TI is concerned about income verification based on Embassy letters from Embassies that are unable to verify income. It also sounds like this will translate into some sort of official change to supporting document requirements but it remains to be seen how such an official change will be worded and (even more "fun") understood and implemented by different IOs around the country.

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[White Tiger]

3 minutes ago, HHTel said:

It seems that the US embassy have now stated officially that they will cease the affidavit route as of January 2019.

 

Watch this space!!

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/ 

[Spidey]

Just now, HHTel said:

Which is why TI needs to state officially what their requirements are.

Currently, there are differing reports from different offices.  If left unchecked then some offices will refuse embassy letters next year and some will accept them.

As I've said, it really needs to be clarified by TI.

AFAIAA, all offices will continue to accept British Embassy letters for as long as the British Embassy continue to produce them. I haven't seen any TI announcements to the contrary.

 

I agree it would be nice for us if TI clarified the issue but why should they? Not their issue. They are happy with the system that they have already put in place. The onus is probably on the British Embassy to work out a resolution to the problem with TI but as they have already proved that they don't give a toss about you, don't hold your breath.

[CharlieH]

And now the Usa citizens are in the same boat officially, how long before the rest of the dominoes fall ?

[Sheryl]

who made the report ? If it isn't an official TI document then I would ignore it.

There does need to be an official government order issued but I would hardly ignore statements by IOs and those who use use offices that made those statements especially need to follow the instructions they were given.

In my experience it is common that Imm staff know about an upcoming change in regs before it officially comes out. I was told by an IO inBkk about the change in age for retirement extension from 55to 50 a good 2 years before it happened, for example. They won't know all the details, and as we all know the devil is in the details, but when several different IOs have told people a change is in the works, it likely is.


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[Sheryl]

Which is fine IF you live in the UK and IF you can get somebody to notarise the documents.

 

Many of us however don't actually live in the UK but in Thailand which brings us back to the point of the thread.

 

What do we need to do NOW since the embassy has screwed us up?

Either prepare to meet the 800k requirement or prepare the best documentation you can of 65k a month income. The former is sure to work the latter not 100% sure since there is no TI guidance yet on what will suffice in absence of embassy letter. Alternatively if the timing of your extension is such that it works, get Embassy letter before 1 January.

 

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[Pattaya46]

11 minutes ago, HHTel said:

It seems that the US embassy have now stated officially that they will cease the affidavit route as of January 2019. Watch this space!!

Confirmed.

US Embassy sent an email to registered US expats and put this news on their website.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/ 

Very ambiguous.

Initially it states:

 

"NOTICE:  Beginning January 1, 2019, U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit.  We will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.  For more information, please refer to our Fact Sheet (PDF 266KB) and Frequently Asked Questions (PDF 419KB).  We will continue to notarize income affidavit forms through the end of 2018. Thai Immigration Bureau officials confirmed that they will support early visa renewals for U.S. citizens during the transition period. The income affidavits are currently valid for six months."

 

But then in the body of the document states:

 

"Services we CAN provide:

Affidavits
Oftentimes the Thai government requests the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General Chiang Mai “certify” documents listed under “services we cannot provide.” Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

An affidavit is a sworn statement of facts, made voluntarily, and confirmed by the oath or affirmation of the person making it.  Please note that the Embassy and Consulate assume no responsibility for the truth or falsity of the representations that appear in the affidavit. Only the identity of the individual making the statement is validated.

Please see our commonly requested affidavits below and confirm in advance if the end recipient will accept an affidavit.

• Blank Affidavit (Attestation of Thai residence to open a bank account or other requested information)
• Income Affidavit (Attestation of monthly income, often required by Thai immigration)

[Sheryl]

Very ambiguous.
Initially it states:
 
"NOTICE:  Beginning January 1, 2019, U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit.  We will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.  For more information, please refer to our Fact Sheet (PDF 266KB) and Frequently Asked Questions (PDF 419KB).  We will continue to notarize income affidavit forms through the end of 2018. Thai Immigration Bureau officials confirmed that they will support early visa renewals for U.S. citizens during the transition period. The income affidavits are currently valid for six months."
 
But then in the body of the document states:
 

"Services we CAN provide:

Affidavits
Oftentimes the Thai government requests the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General Chiang Mai “certify” documents listed under “services we cannot provide.” Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

An affidavit is a sworn statement of facts, made voluntarily, and confirmed by the oath or affirmation of the person making it.  Please note that the Embassy and Consulate assume no responsibility for the truth or falsity of the representations that appear in the affidavit. Only the identity of the individual making the statement is validated.

Please see our commonly requested affidavits below and confirm in advance if the end recipient will accept an affidavit.

• Blank Affidavit (Attestation of Thai residence to open a bank account or other requested information)
• Income Affidavit (Attestation of monthly income, often required by Thai immigration)

Oh I think it is clear enough that they will no longer issue income affadavits.

What is not clear is the part about TI allowing "early" extensions i.e. how early and will upcountry IOs know about it?

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[HHTel]

That surely is just a case of the Income Affidavit link just hasn't caught up.

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

There does need to be an official government order issued but I would hardly ignore statements by IOs and those who use use offices that made those statements especially need to follow the instructions they were given.

In my experience it is common that Imm staff know about an upcoming change in regs before it officially comes out. I was told by an IO inBkk about the change in age for retirement extension from 55to 50 a good 2 years before it happened, for example. They won't know all the details, and as we all know the devil is in the details, but when several different IOs have told people a change is in the works, it likely is.


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The IO in my area says we want the embassy letter, there has been no change. The BE appears to have an issue with verification and has publicly commented on this, the German embassy that issued my letter a few days ago has told me that they will continue to issue the letter which would be a bit strange if the TI had told them that they wont accept it in future. Too many rumours flying around, I have read that the American embassy will continue the affidavit statements but we have a few posts saying they will stop, now we have an ambiguous statement from them, one post said that the Australian embassy will stop issuing affidavits but this has been refuted by the Australian embassy. The center of the hurricane is the BE and as far as I can tell at this moment, only the BE.

[soalbundy]

28 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Oh I think it is clear enough that they will no longer issue income affadavits.

What is not clear is the part about TI allowing "early" extensions i.e. how early and will upcountry IOs know about it?

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Not clear at all. They are merely saying that they can issue income affidavits but aren't sure if the IO will accept them ie. they haven't been told specifically by IO that they wont.

[HHTel]

Well I suppose this vindicates the BE to some degree.  I've always said that it's down to Thai Immigration and not responses from the embassies.

I wonder what will happen over the next few weeks from other embassies that posters have stated that 'their embassy' will not change.  The same was being said about the US Affidavits and why doesn't the BE go the same route.

Well we know the answer to that now.

 

Therefore, emails, complaints and petitions are a waste of effort.

 

 

[HHTel]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Not clear at all. They are merely saying that they can issue income affidavits but aren't sure if the IO will accept them ie. they haven't been told specifically by IO that they wont.

'Clutching at straws' comes to mind!

 

Quote

Beginning January 1, 2019, U.S. Embassy Bangkok and U.S. Consulate General Chiang Mai will no longer provide the income affidavit.  We will not notarize previous versions of the income affidavit.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, HHTel said:

'Clutching at straws' comes to mind!

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

and yet further down (see spidey's post) they say we can issue affidavits but we don't know if that is acceptable to the IO, so they haven't been told that is the case.

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

and yet further down (see spidey's post) they say we can issue affidavits but we don't know if that is acceptable to the IO, so they haven't been told that is the case.

 

 

As you have said before - it doesn't matter what the embassies do until Thai Immigration say what is acceptable.

 

 

I am looking forward to the consistency on that one !!!

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jip99

[HHTel]

56 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Affidavits
Oftentimes the Thai government requests the U.S. Embassy or Consulate General Chiang Mai “certify” documents listed under “services we cannot provide.” Please note the Embassy and Consulate CAN notarize an affidavit which may or may not satisfy the Thai requirement for “certification.”

An affidavit is a sworn statement of facts, made voluntarily, and confirmed by the oath or affirmation of the person making it.  Please note that the Embassy and Consulate assume no responsibility for the truth or falsity of the representations that appear in the affidavit. Only the identity of the individual making the statement is validated.

Where does that mention 'income' affidavits.  It states that they can notarise an affidavit but income affidavits are dealt with earlier.  i.e. they will stop come January.

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Well I suppose this vindicates the BE to some degree.  I've always said that it's down to Thai Immigration and not responses from the embassies.

I wonder what will happen over the next few weeks from other embassies that posters have stated that 'their embassy' will not change.  The same was being said about the US Affidavits and why doesn't the BE go the same route.

Well we know the answer to that now.

 

Therefore, emails, complaints and petitions are a waste of effort.

 

 

It may depend on the various embassy letters wording, the German letter for instance says 'is receiving annuities from Germany' without a caveat, that is verifying, the Dutch embassy has also said they will continue issuing the letter (according to a post here) although what their wording is I don't know but one would assume that if an embassy had received a warning that their letters (not uncontested affidavits) will no longer be accepted then they would have warned their citizens by now.

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

As you have said before - it doesn't matter what the embassies do until Thai Immigration say what is acceptable.

 

 

I am looking forward to the consistency on that one !!!

True but as yet they have said nothing, my IO says nothing has changed.

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Correct, but my policy is to always err on the side of safety, particularly when dealing with Thai authorities. It would be an absolute disaster for me to have to leave Thailand. I would never give Thai Immigration even the slightest excuse to refuse my visa extension. Which is why I have already moved money around in my UK accounts in preparation for seeding my Thai bank account next year. Not happy about it but needs must.

I concur and I have much the same view about having to leave Thailand.

Unfortunately many people are not financially able to do what you are able to do to extend at Thai immigration.

I always have kept retiree now marriage amounts in Thai bank yearly.

 

Hence the concern for people who have earnings enough to show which is something I cannot do but unlike me have the ability to show bank statements from a UK Bank showing payments into Thai bank. 

 

Now if I can show to Thai immigration a letter from a Thai bank confirming 400,000 or 800,000 in a Thai bank which they accept.

Why cannot Thai immigration accept UK bank statements and a letter from a Thai bank confirming correct monthly amounts it's the same, same as they say isn't it.   

 

So as I see it it's Thai immigration that should accept this way after British Embassy announced withdrawal of the letter whether they see it as not there problem or not if they want people to stay.

 

[Jip99]

8 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

 

 

So as I see it it's Thai immigration that should accept this way after British Embassy announced withdrawal of the letter whether they see it as not there problem or not if they want people to stay.

 

 

 

They have no motivation to make it easier for aliens.

[HHTel]

17 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

It may depend on the various embassy letters wording, the German letter for instance says 'is receiving annuities from Germany' without a caveat, that is verifying, the Dutch embassy has also said they will continue issuing the letter (according to a post here) although what their wording is I don't know but one would assume that if an embassy had received a warning that their letters (not uncontested affidavits) will no longer be accepted then they would have warned their citizens by now.

Well until today, US citizens were saying that their embassy have no plans to change.

This is only the second embassy to state they are not continuing income affidavits.  Bearing in mind that the validity of an income letter is 6 months, that takes us to end June 2019.  Plenty of time for 'things to happen'!