UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

But have you been sending the original to the embassy when you apply for the income letter. All they require is a copy or a uploaded scan of it if doing by email.

I am wondering it that is the problem that immigration has actually pointed out to the UK embassy.

Yes, I always send the originals of my P60, pension payslip and 3 months bank statements to the BE. They always return them with my letter. 

 

Strangely, I received my letter last week, the P60 and payslip were returned but not my bank statements. I just hope that, with all this furore, the IO doesn't ask for them as additional proof.

[Spidey]

13 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Please see attached.... Easily scanned.... Easily redacted - changed.... Standard laser printer paper - No water mark.... The embossed seal is also easy to replicate if required.

 

As I have indicated to you previously, it is possible with scanner and decent software to replicate any document.

 

Consular Letter_Redacted.pdf

The embossed seal is required and not easy to replicate.

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

As I have indicated to you previously, it is possible with scanner and decent software to replicate any document.

Consular Letter_Redacted.pdf

Your attachment download does not work.

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Yes, I always send the originals of my P60, pension payslip and 3 months bank statements to the BE. They always return them with my letter. 

But the embassy does not require the originals. Most people only send copies or as attached files to an email now.

[007 RED]

10 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Your attachment download does not work.

Thanks... Re-loaded and now working.

[cleverman]

51 minutes ago, Spidey said:

So you have no evidence that this is happening. You just wish it were true. Nobody is asking you to hang anybody out. You have already stated that you know people that do this. I just asked what method they use, not names.

This you can't be for real,most don't have the money in the bank or the monthly income.and I know many ,are we allowed to call them Pxxx, .,which is not an insulting term.

[Peterw42]

26 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And they would have no chance of passing muster at the British Embassy.

I think you are underestimating how easy it can be to create fake documents nowadays. If a pension provider/bank can print it, so can anyone else with a printer. The fact that docs can be fabricated is probably part of the reason BE is distancing themselves.

You can start to get into all sorts of semantic arguments as to what is an original document, the word/pdf electronically stored file, or the printed copy, the first printed copy and not another printed copy etc. 

Its a moot point, if some is maybe doing fake documents in the current system, they would probably do it in any new system.

[CharlieH]

14 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Thanks... Re-loaded and now working.

Not for me it aint. ????

[Spidey]

Just now, cleverman said:

This you can't be for real,most don't have the money in the bank or the monthly income.and I know many ,are we allowed to call them Pxxx, .,which is not an insulting term.

And they use agents to seed a notional bank account, not send forged documents to the British Embassy or try to pass a forged copy of the embassy letter off to the IO.

 

Most British expats that I know have both the monthly income required and the means to season their Thai bank account to the required amount or a combination of both. No need for them to forge any documents.

 

However, I do know 2 British expats who find it easier and more convenient to pay an agent to season a bank account for them. Not strictly legal but I found this the quickest way to obtain a retirement extension for my newly acquired Non O visa when I first came to Thailand. It took me 2 weeks from visiting a visa agent to having a non O visa in my passport with a retirement extension, giving me 15 months before I required another extension. Great service but not cheap and not legal.

[007 RED]

5 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Not for me it aint. ????

Thanks.... I don't know why you can't access the attachment... I've just tried and it appeared.

[offset]

On 10/23/2018 at 9:55 AM, Moonlover said:

Would be nice to know that this is substantiated by something a little more persuasive than 'I have been told by somebody'.

 

If it is true, especially the last sentence, it is good news. But I would not accept it from 'someone who told me'. 

 

But thanks anyway.

 

ML

Now maybe you will believe that not all on here lie or just talk gossip

 

 

[007 RED]

55 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I operated my first computer at my local university in 1969. I have worked with computers ever since. I know exactly what computers can and can't do. Doubt that they would be able to effectively reproduce my P60. As for the British Embassy letter, it has an embossed seal, it's all about the paper that it's printed on, not the computer itself.

 

Try printing a banknote on a piece of A4 paper, using a computer alone, do you think that your bank would accept it?

I don’t dispute the fact that you submit the original documents to support your request for a BE letter – that is your choice.  However, with your all-embracing computer experience you must be fully aware that many organisations nowadays encourage their customers to adopt paperless online communications.  That is to say they provide you with your information online and it up to you if you print it or not.

 

My bank statements, pension payslips, P60s are all available to me as PDFs online.  I just download them and attach copies to my email to the BE when I submit my request for a letter.  In the case of Immigration, I print these on standard inkjet printing paper (no security ink) and submitted them to the IO if asked for added verification.  Never had a problems.

 

As previously mentioned, the BE letter is produced on standard LaserJet printing paper and does not have any watermark.  The red serrated disc is just self-adhesive sticky paper and the embossed BE logo can be easily produced using a 3D printer to make a stamp.  Nothing is impossible!

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

But have you been sending the original to the embassy when you apply for the income letter. All they require is a copy or a uploaded scan of it if doing by email.

I am wondering it that is the problem that immigration has actually pointed out to the UK embassy.

 

That is possible.

 

However, it is equally likely that they realise that the BE's level of due diligence is minimal (or less). The BE will accept whatever you send (now scans, not originals) without questioning authenticity or accuracy.  I have seen letters saying that Mr X earns, say, GBP 200 p.m. (as e.g. a gardener in Thailand) to supplement his shortfall in pension income.

 

That said, the BE's 'certification' was at least as good as any other embassy's statutory declaration, and I doubt an IO's ability to correctly interpret bank statements/pay slips/P60's etc - in fact they just won't do it; they are neither capable or inclined.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Jip99

[HappyAndRich]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

I operated my first computer at my local university in 1969. I have worked with computers ever since. I know exactly what computers can and can't do. Doubt that they would be able to effectively reproduce my P60. As for the British Embassy letter, it has an embossed seal, it's all about the paper that it's printed on, not the computer itself.

 

Try printing a banknote on a piece of A4 paper, using a computer alone, do you think that your bank would accept it?

1969? Was that the egyptian abacus? On second thought maybe it was the tabulating machine.

However, you win! No I do not think my bank would accept it. Do you really believe a person counterfeiting money would try to change them in a bank?

[HappyAndRich]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Not how the British Embassy verifies income. Requires documented proof of your income. Completely different system to the US Embassy. I presume that you are a US citizen and have no doubt that your fellow countrymen routinely swear false affidavits as to their income. Not possible with British citizens.

Nope, not US citizen. How was it now? Are you stating an accusation that US citizens are falsifying their affidavits now? How grossly insulting to US citizens.

Even if you need documented proof of income, that can be obtained somewhere for a price, and you can still falsify the document.

However, there is no need for more discussion about the subject. That due to there is no way they will accept them no more, which is perfect and eliminates the falsifying risk.

[Pattaya46]

4 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

1969? Was that the egyptian abacus? On second thought maybe it was the tabulating machine.

1969: Man walked on the moon, and Apollo used computers  (search for: AGC Apollo)

[Spidey]

16 minutes ago, HappyAndRich said:

1969? Was that the egyptian abacus? On second thought maybe it was the tabulating machine.

It had as much computing power as a modern digital watch and filled a very large room. Input was via punched cards and output via ticker tape. Programs ran on spooled magnetic tape. Cutting edge at the time, not so much now! 555

[OJAS]

On 10/25/2018 at 10:36 AM, Tanoshi said:

However unless all the Embassies withdraw the Income letters, Thai Immigration are hardly being forced into finding an alternative method, they may not even be concerned in considering an alternative method.

And, even if all the other embassies were to follow the Brit's (and now American's) lead, there would still be no cast-iron guarantee that the Immigration Bureau would be prepared to any more on this whole matter other than twiddle their thumbs.

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, OJAS said:

And, even if all the other embassies were to follow the Brit's (and now American's) lead, there would still be no cast-iron guarantee that the Immigration Bureau would be prepared to any more on this whole matter other than twiddle their thumbs.

We've had recent reports that Thai Imm  in some locations know nothing about what we have been talking about for almost a week or more- does anyone  really think every IO will get the word.

[johnjohn2]

32 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

We've had recent reports that Thai Imm  in some locations know nothing about what we have been talking about for almost a week or more- does anyone  really think every IO will get the word.

I called my local immigration office and they had no idea. They do now. If enough people go in and ask some questions they will start making calls. The sooner the better. When they call to BKK they can get more guidance.

[OJAS]

12 hours ago, Thaidream said:

We've had recent reports that Thai Imm  in some locations know nothing about what we have been talking about for almost a week or more- does anyone  really think every IO will get the word.

Therein lies the nub of the problem. Even if the Immigration Bureau were minded to issue some directive permitting monthly income to be verifiable on the basis of transfers into a Thai bank account, it might be worth recalling that the directive which they issued in 2013 prescribing a maximum validity period of 6 months for Embassy income confirmations by no means filtered down to each and every IO at the coal face overnight!

[dick dasterdly]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:02 AM, Peterw42 said:

I think you are underestimating how easy it can be to create fake documents nowadays. If a pension provider/bank can print it, so can anyone else with a printer. The fact that docs can be fabricated is probably part of the reason BE is distancing themselves.

You can start to get into all sorts of semantic arguments as to what is an original document, the word/pdf electronically stored file, or the printed copy, the first printed copy and not another printed copy etc. 

Its a moot point, if some is maybe doing fake documents in the current system, they would probably do it in any new system.

"If a pension provider/bank can print it, so can anyone else with a printer."

 

Have to disagree with the part I've emboldened, as I certainly couldn't and suspect it is a minority that could!

 

But I agree with your final para. "Its a moot point, if some is maybe doing fake documents in the current system, they would probably do it in any new system."

[Moonlover]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 6:57 AM, Moonlover said:

I urge everyone who is affected by this decision to email the embassy and ask, in your own words, ‘Have the Thai immigration categorically confirmed that they will, henceforth accept applications without the embassy letter’.

Ok. So do you all remember why I started this thread last week? It was about the alternative to incomes letters and how will we be able to demonstrate that we have sufficient income qualify for an extension.

 

I wonder how many of you did, in fact address this issue with the British Embassy. Well I did and here, in part, is the most salient part of their reply.

 

''Although the pension letter is widely accepted as proof of income for foreigners to secure an extension of stay, it is an informal agreement and is not required under Thai law.  The Thai authorities have confirmed they require income to be verified and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account.

 

We continue to work with Thai Immigration and have requested their assistance to update and advise local  Immigration departments throughout  the country of the information.

 

Regards Sarah Peth Deputy Consul & Head of Operations''

 

So that as far as the embassy is concerned, is the way forward. This is what I expected and what I have already geared up for. For those, like me, who have sufficient pension incomes, this should present no problems.

 

And as far as I'm concerned, it's panic over. I'm not due to renew until next August, so I'm sure even sleepy Sakon Nakhon will have got to hear of this by then.

 

ML

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Moonlover

[Pattaya46]

14 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

// is the most salient part of their reply.

...

"and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account"

Their reply bring nothing new. 

These are the words of the UK Embassy but we still don't know if TI will accept to do so. 

[steve73]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Their reply bring nothing new. 

These are the words of the UK Embassy but we still don't know if TI will accept to do so. 

Also, no clarity whether that income has to be a minimum for the past month, 3 months, or 12 months, or an average over some period.  

[Moonlover]

18 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

8 hours ago, Moonlover said:

// is the most salient part of their reply.

...

"and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account"

 

18 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Their reply bring nothing new. 

These are the words of the UK Embassy but we still don't know if TI will accept to do so. 

You're using that partial sentence out of context. The full sentence reads 

 

18 hours ago, Moonlover said:

The Thai authorities have confirmed they require income to be verified and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account.

That certainly seems clear enough to me.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Moonlover

[Moonlover]

17 hours ago, steve73 said:

18 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Their reply bring nothing new. 

These are the words of the UK Embassy but we still don't know if TI will accept to do so. 

 

17 hours ago, steve73 said:

Also, no clarity whether that income has to be a minimum for the past month, 3 months, or 12 months, or an average over some period.  

Is that a problem? Plan for 12 and if they only want 3, give them 3. Problem solved.

[Pattaya46]

 

4 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

You're using that partial sentence out of context. The full sentence reads 

18 hours ago, Moonlover said:

"The Thai authorities have confirmed they require income to be verified and the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account."

 

That certainly seems clear enough to me.

 

Hum... I am not a native English speaker,

but I read  (said by BE) :

1-  the Thai authorities have confirmed they require income to be verified

and

2- the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account."

 

I do not read :

1- The Thai authorities have confirmed :

  1.1- they require income to be verified

  and

  1.2- they can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account."

 

So for me the second part is not "confirmed" by TI. 

[Moonlover]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

 

 

Hum... I am not a native English speaker,

but I read  (said by BE) :

1-  the Thai authorities have confirmed they require income to be verified

and

2- the Thai authorities can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account."

 

I do not read :

1- The Thai authorities have confirmed :

  1.1- they require income to be verified

  and

  1.2- they can do this by sighting income in a Thai bank account."

Ok, I understand why you're having difficulty with this and I do agree, it can be interpreted two ways.

 

However, when I emailed the embassy, I did ask, very specifically, what method of 'proof of income' the Thai Immigration were prepared to accept. This is the direct reply to that enquiry.

 

So I really do think we can accept that this will the new method they will adopt.

 

ML

[Jip99]

22 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

Is that a problem? Plan for 12 and if they only want 3, give them 3. Problem solved.

 

 

The problem (apart from the unknown) is the need to plan for it.

 

 

My online banking only offers the last 6 months statements...... obviously in issue if immigration want to see 12 and I haven't prepared by printing statements as I go.

 

Nor will it be an issue if immigration require bank certified statements.

 

 

Go on then as we are speculating, what about the 3 months of the year that I have traveled outside Thailand ?

 

I only keep minimal funds in Kasikorn while I am away but my monthly income remains significantly higher than the equivalent of 65,000 Baht.