Almost 11,000 killed on Thai roads so far this year

[Vacuum]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:58 AM, hobz said:

PS, people from my country might even be overly safe.. but the point remains that it's a cultural difference. Not a law enforcement difference. 

+1  

Edited October 29, 2018 by metisdead
Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording.

[hobz]

6 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

OMG, I am not suggesting a single solution! Where have I said that? I have said you need to start somewhere, URGENTLY. It will take a generational change of culture to benefit your "smart but too late" raft of road safety changes! Jeeze, stop pontificating about European solutions on a feudal system, led by those who have shown little desire to make any fundamental wholesale changes.

 

Making some urgent changes now is better than doing nothing or waiting for a huge shift in cultural values to effect meaningful results! Go back to your ivory tower with your dreams and let those who have more practical ideas, do something NOW!

 

Roads and vehicles do not kill people - drivers/riders do! They need "immediate attention"! A 'brilliant' road safety campaign too late is not the best course of action (in the Kingdom), to immediately start reducing the current road trauma. The current cultural values, of the Kingdom, are not those of caucasian and probably never will be.

Road design is also a killer. All those insane u-turns where there is no vision and high speed limit... Insanity..

[stanleycoin]

Get the big <deleted> money stick out on the bad Somchai's

and hit them so hard in the back pocket, it brakes there arse bone

for the next year.

It's the only way you will ever get there attention.

and its all they understand !!!!

You need to get there attention first.

This is not Europe, Oz, Usa, or Norway !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. 

It's the Hub of death on the roads for the world. 

 

[rott]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:04 AM, kwilco said:

Example of the woolly thinking around road safety. This is a totally subjective comment, pulling figures out of thin air.

Again the obsession with "driving" is totally unhelpful. The problem is road safety, not just "driving"....and you seem to be referring to driving in 4 wheeled vehicles..

A few things you might want to consider, Thailand has the same  number of collisions as most Western countries .... statistically you are as safe (from dying) in a 4 wheeled vehicle as you are in the USA. Thailand has no centralised or standardised emergency services, some of the worst road and traffic engineering in Asia.

It should be further noted that road incident or crash statistics are gathered in far more ways than deaths per 100 k, the single stat bandied about on this forum.

International standard divides EVERY crash into 3 categories....1 death 2 serious injury 3 minor injury. Thailand has failed to do this on an annual basis at any time.

Stats also take into account density of traffic, distance travelled per vehicle and all other road users.

Contrary to popular belief there is no time limit on death resulting from an RTI.

Many believe it is only the police who gather statistics in Thailand when in fact there are about 5 or 6 organisations compiling stats, all with their criteria.

Thereafter is that to simply conclude that the high number of deaths means Thai people are bad drivers is akin to saying the world is flat because it looks like it from where you are standing....or those lights in the sky must be aliens.

It is also grossly insulting to the people of Thailand.

 

Kwilco you say that "contrary to popular belief there is no time limit on death due to an RTI". I assume you mean the statistics will reflect subsequent deaths.

 

The OP quoting from The Nation seems to see it differently, The Sec-General of the Don't Drive Drunk Foundation states the figure "takes into account only deaths recorded at the incident scene".

 

Who to believe?

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, rott said:

Kwilco you say that "contrary to popular belief there is no time limit on death due to an RTI". I assume you mean the statistics will reflect subsequent deaths.

 

The OP quoting from The Nation seems to see it differently, The Sec-General of the Don't Drive Drunk Foundation states the figure "takes into account only deaths recorded at the incident scene".

 

Who to believe?

N

No, it is fairly obvious if you compile "stats” immediately after an incident there will be unrecorded deaths - i.e. they haven't died yet. This renders these stats pretty much worthless - When the final stats are analyzed and collated the come from various sources including insurance companies and hospitals so the numbers of deaths will be higher. We also have no breakdown of injuries or numbers of collisions. However, the Thai police until about 5 years ago did not adjust their figures - in fact the whole stat gathering situation in Thailand is extremely haphazard. ...and interpretations need to be cautious - see how The WHO compiles their own stats from around the world.

 

If you want to contrast this, go onto the UK government site and you'll find EVERY SINGLE reported collision or crash going back years with full inventory of the 3 kinds of injuries, the road dimensions, damage to vehicles, speed alcohol etc. - the amount of stats is truly mind-boggling and there for good reason - yet people here in Thailand think they can draw their own conclusions without any knowledge of road safety or statistical analysis and base it on one solitary stat gathered by a body noted for poor statistics gathering - and I'd be willing to bet that not only do they know how it is compiled they probably don't know by who or when. Checking your source is very important - Trump supporters should know that.

 

There is a gross misconception by those from the west (EU/USE Oz etc. etc.) that thy are in some way superior to Thai people in many ways and in particular driving.

The reality is they are completely unaware of how over the past 50 years success governments, quangos etc. have been working the background designing cars, roads hospitals, clearing obstacles vegetation etc., putting up barriers separating traffic flows, widening sorting roads, adjusting camber and bend radii, analyzing traffic flow, density and speed all to make us safer. 

in short, they have no idea how cosseted they are at home and that in reality they still are dreadful drivers, it is the scientists, engineers and designers that keep them from being the idiots they still are and crashing into each other

 

Thailand decided to go on the private vehicle ownership road back in the 1960s to 70s but they have tried to do it on the cheap - I see hardly any evidence in Thailand at all of road and traffic engineers, no emergency services and little vehicle safety or driver enforcement - the combination of different forms of traffic on wide straight roads is just a lethal combination, but they have gone so far off the septet path that to correct the situation apart from a massive sea-change in attitude would also require major investment - but the Chinese are unlikely to stump up in this case..... especially as they were ill-advisedly and irrationally banned from Thai roads........ how’s that for good trade.

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by kwilco

[Sheryl]

A flaming post has been removed.

 

There have been many others that were borderline flaming or baiting in nature. Please keep it civil and make your points without denigrating others.

[kwilco]

On 10/26/2018 at 10:58 AM, hobz said:

but the point remains that it's a cultural difference. Not a law enforcement difference. 

this is a misuse of the word culture. Road safety is covered by physics. The use of the word "culture" .

 

Culture is fluid and not cast in stone - it is constantly changing and is not an excuse for wild anti-Thai generalisations where it becomes nothing more then a substitute for racist generalizations

[hobz]

29 minutes ago, kwilco said:

this is a misuse of the word culture. Road safety is covered by physics. The use of the word "culture" .

 

Culture is fluid and not cast in stone - it is constantly changing and is not an excuse for wild anti-Thai generalisations where it becomes nothing more then a substitute for racist generalizations

What could be the reason that in one country parents think it's very important that their kids use seatbelts and in another country they are not?

 

Ever heard of "Mai pen Rai"-attitude? Do you deny it's a part of Thai culture? 

 

Different cultures exists. Mindset regarding safety can be a part of a culture.

I never said anything about race.

Culture is not about race. And yes, it changes over time. That's why I think over the long term Thailand needs a cultural change regarding safety mindset.

In the short term they need strict law enforcement with severe penalties.

Edited October 27, 2018 by hobz

[rott]

54 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

A flaming post has been removed.

 

There have been many others that were borderline flaming or baiting in nature. Please keep it civil and make your points without denigrating others.

A pity we cannot have a separate forum for deleted flaming threads, it would be an interesting one. Comment would not be allowed obviously.

[rott]

Kwilco I do not wish to repeat your response, but my query was that you originally seemed to say that the figure of quoted deaths included subsequent deaths and not only those dead at the scene.

 

The OP quoting from The Nation states very clearly that subsequent deaths are not included. Are you in agreement with the OP and The Nation or not?

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

N

No, it is fairly obvious if you compile "stats” immediately after an incident there will be unrecorded deaths - i.e. they haven't died yet. This renders these stats pretty much worthless - When the final stats are analyzed and collated the come from various sources including insurance companies and hospitals so the numbers of deaths will be higher. We also have no breakdown of injuries or numbers of collisions. However, the Thai police until about 5 years ago did not adjust their figures - in fact the whole stat gathering situation in Thailand is extremely haphazard. ...and interpretations need to be cautious - see how The WHO compiles their own stats from around the world.

 

If you want to contrast this, go onto the UK government site and you'll find EVERY SINGLE reported collision or crash going back years with full inventory of the 3 kinds of injuries, the road dimensions, damage to vehicles, speed alcohol etc. - the amount of stats is truly mind-boggling and there for good reason - yet people here in Thailand think they can draw their own conclusions without any knowledge of road safety or statistical analysis and base it on one solitary stat gathered by a body noted for poor statistics gathering - and I'd be willing to bet that not only do they know how it is compiled they probably don't know by who or when. Checking your source is very important - Trump supporters should know that.

 

There is a gross misconception by those from the west (EU/USE Oz etc. etc.) that thy are in some way superior to Thai people in many ways and in particular driving.

The reality is they are completely unaware of how over the past 50 years success governments, quangos etc. have been working the background designing cars, roads hospitals, clearing obstacles vegetation etc., putting up barriers separating traffic flows, widening sorting roads, adjusting camber and bend radii, analyzing traffic flow, density and speed all to make us safer. 

in short, they have no idea how cosseted they are at home and that in reality they still are dreadful drivers, it is the scientists, engineers and designers that keep them from being the idiots they still are and crashing into each other

 

Thailand decided to go on the private vehicle ownership road back in the 1960s to 70s but they have tried to do it on the cheap - I see hardly any evidence in Thailand at all of road and traffic engineers, no emergency services and little vehicle safety or driver enforcement - the combination of different forms of traffic on wide straight roads is just a lethal combination, but they have gone so far off the septet path that to correct the situation apart from a massive sea-change in attitude would also require major investment - but the Chinese are unlikely to stump up in this case..... especially as they were ill-advisedly and irrationally banned from Thai roads........ how’s that for good trade.

 

Interesting but nowhere have you mentioned the stupidity around not wearing a crash helmet, nor seat belts, overtaking on blind bends, speeding in the wet, 5 to a bike, 11 yr olds driving motorbikes...…..the list is endless.

 

I don't believe it is a misconception when I simply state that, "you can't fix stupid".

[lvr181]

16 hours ago, hobz said:

Road design is also a killer. All those insane u-turns where there is no vision and high speed limit... Insanity..

I don't disagree with you. But I think an immediate return on "investment" would be to target drivers first and foremost, in conjunction with other road safety initiatives.

 

I do recall that in the Government's last "budget" they lowered spending on education and increased military spending. That, to me, is a clue about how spending may or would be spent on road safety campaigns or road engineering!

 

There are just too many "cowboy" drivers/riders using the roads causing the vast majority of crashes. This is about priorities, not exclusivities. 

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

I don't disagree with you. But I think an immediate return on "investment" would be to target drivers first and foremost, in conjunction with other road safety initiatives.

 

I do recall that in the Government's last "budget" they lowered spending on education and increased military spending. That, to me, is a clue about how spending may or would be spent on road safety campaigns or road engineering!

 

There are just too many "cowboy" drivers/riders using the roads causing the vast majority of crashes. This is about priorities, not 

As said, single issues will not work alone...they have to be part of an all encompassing policy....This is clearly demonstrated in Western Europe and the EU.

[paulikens]

On 10/26/2018 at 4:04 AM, kwilco said:

Example of the woolly thinking around road safety. This is a totally subjective comment, pulling figures out of thin air.

Again the obsession with "driving" is totally unhelpful. The problem is road safety, not just "driving"....and you seem to be referring to driving in 4 wheeled vehicles..

A few things you might want to consider, Thailand has the same  number of collisions as most Western countries .... statistically you are as safe (from dying) in a 4 wheeled vehicle as you are in the USA. Thailand has no centralised or standardised emergency services, some of the worst road and traffic engineering in Asia.

It should be further noted that road incident or crash statistics are gathered in far more ways than deaths per 100 k, the single stat bandied about on this forum.

International standard divides EVERY crash into 3 categories....1 death 2 serious injury 3 minor injury. Thailand has failed to do this on an annual basis at any time.

Stats also take into account density of traffic, distance travelled per vehicle and all other road users.

Contrary to popular belief there is no time limit on death resulting from an RTI.

Many believe it is only the police who gather statistics in Thailand when in fact there are about 5 or 6 organisations compiling stats, all with their criteria.

Thereafter is that to simply conclude that the high number of deaths means Thai people are bad drivers is akin to saying the world is flat because it looks like it from where you are standing....or those lights in the sky must be aliens.

It is also grossly insulting to the people of Thailand.

 

sorry mr informed we bow down to your superior knowledge!!

 

[lvr181]

On 10/28/2018 at 7:59 AM, kwilco said:

As said, single issues will not work alone...they have to be part of an all encompassing policy....This is clearly demonstrated in Western Europe and the EU.

Western Europe and EU IS NOT Thailand! What is "acceptable practice" in Western Europe, EU and other modern western nations is not followed in the Kingdom.

 

Thailand has a different mindset/culture compared to 'farang' countries. For one, they seem not to want to learn from them (they prefer re-inventing the wheel), in fact the Kingdom seems not to want or be able to learn from one of their succesful near neighbours either, e.g. Singapore.

 

Chalk is not cheese (if that helps to simplify your understanding of what I and others are talking about).

 

So, please stop rabbiting on about Western Europe and the EU! And I am not knocking them, just your dogmatic attitude of referencing them.

[Mosha]

Given previous years, isn't 11K a good result? Halved the death toll, congratulations are in order.

[xylophone]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:04 AM, kwilco said:

to simply conclude that the high number of deaths means Thai people are bad drivers

That's it...….

 

I have driven in many countries around the world in my time and apart from Libya, the Thai road users have to be the worst I have encountered and observed, with some of their driving habits and practises being absolutely appalling...……...nothing to do with the half-arsed road layouts or condition of the roads, it is the people using them, plain and simple IMO.

[rott]

13 hours ago, paulikens said:

sorry mr informed we bow down to your superior knowledge!!

 

It is just a pity that he cannot just give a (short) simple, straight answer to a simple, straight question.

Edited October 29, 2018 by rott

[Odysseus123]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:35 PM, Ahab said:

No that article must be misinformed, simplistic, and unknowledgeable about the topic.

 

Experts that have previously posted on this topic have said so, and have also said that blaming the problems on observations that anyone with an IQ above 70 can plainly see is ignorant and does not address the problem. In fact the problem is so complex that pointing out that many Thai drivers do not observe traffic laws, speed, drive unsafely, don't have adequate training, and most traffic laws are not enforced at all show that you have no grasp on this issue. (Sarcastic rant over).

 

I personally disagree with the self proclaimed TV "experts" that cannot see the forest because of all the damn trees in the way.  Lack of law enforcement means that if you break the traffic laws or drive unsafely you will not be caught by law enforcement (because it is not there), and you will not be penalized thus encouraging bad behavior. Heck if you have the right lucky amulet you do not even have to worry about being in an accident or being injured, or killed.

 

The article is spot on, by the way.

Enforcement is a key issue-but more to the point you will not be blamed by anyone...neither your peers,your family,the police or the judiciary  as a whole.

 

Therefore your right brain thinking will continue unabated..

 

Sorta like Pavlov's dog with an unending supply of crunchy biscuits.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Odysseus123

[masuk]

On 10/23/2018 at 8:19 AM, Thian said:

Half of the Bangkokians still doesn't wear a helmet and the other half still doesn't have a driverslicense it seems. And the police still does nothing at all....so it's no surprise.

Thais don't seem to give a durn about road rules.  Last Monday I went by taxi to DMK airport.  The driver had his foot flat to the floor for the entire trip;  I asked him to slow down when he went over 120k/h, and he just laughed.

As we approached the airport turn-off, we passed a few 80k/h speed signs, but he just kept on at over 120.

 

Traffic police?  Speed cameras?   What a laugh.

[anon537687643]

Thais don't seem to give a durn about road rules.  Last Monday I went by taxi to DMK airport.  The driver had his foot flat to the floor for the entire trip;  I asked him to slow down when he went over 120k/h, and he just laughed.

As we approached the airport turn-off, we passed a few 80k/h speed signs, but he just kept on at over 120.

 

Traffic police?  Speed cameras?   What a laugh.

Of course you’re correct ! The overwhelming number of accidents and fatalities are due to “bad driving standards “ The so called experts who refer to their knowledge about “Road Safety” and it being the main factor are frankly out of touch with reality !

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thian]

1 hour ago, masuk said:

Thais don't seem to give a durn about road rules.  Last Monday I went by taxi to DMK airport.  The driver had his foot flat to the floor for the entire trip;  I asked him to slow down when he went over 120k/h, and he just laughed.

As we approached the airport turn-off, we passed a few 80k/h speed signs, but he just kept on at over 120.

 

Traffic police?  Speed cameras?   What a laugh.

When i take a taxi to the airport they also go full speed...but when i take a taxi to the same area but not the airport they drive normal....maybe the police accepts the excuse of bringing the falang to the airport?