Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[marcusarelus]

8 minutes ago, sumrit said:

In America (and the UK) maybe but we're talking about qualifying to stay in Thailand where you must prove you meet the financial requirements to stay. Lying about your income then declaring you're innocent until it's proved that you lied is not an option.

 

Like the UK, if somebody applies for a visa to go to the US that person must prove (amongst other things) that you qualify financially for that visa. They are not allowed in and deemed innocent until it's proved they lied about their financial position.

 

The problem in Thailand is that, although rules have been in place, enforcement on all sides has been lax and open to abuse. Now they want to tighten up the system the people on the fiddles are panicking and think it's unfair.

No they don't.  The embassies want to work less.  It would be easy to show the embassy a SS statement or bank statement.  They don't want to look and write a letter.  It is called civil servants forgetting what the words civil servant means.  

[bkk6060]

33 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Tell him to use an agent.

I did.

But remember, he has no money.  Barely gets by each month.  Knowing his lifestyle I believe that he has no money cannot afford an agent.

I hope he figures it all out, but it will not be with my assistance.

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

So what are you suggesting, US Embassy and Thai Immigration are to blame because they won't continue a system that allows/encourages people like your friend to lie in order to stay in Thailand illegally?? 

Haha.

No, nice try. 

Sorry you cannot figure it out but I am suggesting nothing, just telling a story about a guy I know who seems desperate. 

On the big picture, it is his issue to figure out and deal with.

[phuketrichard]

FOR Americans;
Been told we can use our original SS letter, (that i just received today announcing a increase of 2.8% this year)  as prove of monthly income

OR

for use with combo method

anyone confirm/deny?

[elviajero]

56 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

No they don't.  The embassies want to work less.  It would be easy to show the embassy a SS statement or bank statement.  They don't want to look and write a letter.  It is called civil servants forgetting what the words civil servant means.  

Nonsense.

 

Pieces of official looking paper prove nothing. Embassies are refusing to verify the income source, which would be impractical in many cases, and impossible in some.

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, phuketrichard said:

FOR Americans;
Been told we can use our original SS letter, (that i just received today announcing a increase of 2.8% this year)  as prove of monthly income

OR

for use with combo method

anyone confirm/deny?

I cannot confirm it. The only thing I have read about is money going into a Thai bank to prove income.

I got my SS letter on Saturday,

 

[elviajero]

40 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I did.

But remember, he has no money.  Barely gets by each month.  Knowing his lifestyle I believe that he has no money cannot afford an agent.

I hope he figures it all out, but it will not be with my assistance.

If he can't get an extension he might as well overstay and prepare in case of deportation.

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Nonsense.

 

Pieces of official looking paper prove nothing. Embassies are refusing to verify the income source, which would be impractical in many cases, and impossible in some.

Americans mostly Social Security would be easy.  But why only 4 embassies out of all of the countries with embassies in Thailand?

[malt25]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

No they don't.  The embassies want to work less.  It would be easy to show the embassy a SS statement or bank statement.  They don't want to look and write a letter.  It is called civil servants forgetting what the words civil servant means.  

Rubbish ! Embassies aren't for nursemadeing expats. To forge a bank statement or the like isn't difficult these days. To VERIFY an income could be time consuming if not almost impossible in some instances especially with privacy laws & such. Most embassies, if not all, aren't here to hold our hand. If you find yourself in legal trouble the best you can hope for is maybe your embassy might recommend a lawyer. I'm an expat, retired using the income method. I'll be waiting for the official IO ruling before I start to lose any sleep. Way too much knee jerk reaction so far.

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

his US social security is only 30,000 b a month.  He admitted he has always lied to get the letter. He has lived with his Thai gf for 10 years.

Maybe his girlfriend should look for a job, assuming she got paid 10000 ThB a month, this will be togeher 40000.

Paying an agent 20-25000 should than theorically been possible.

[elviajero]

13 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Americans mostly Social Security would be easy.  But why only 4 embassies out of all of the countries with embassies in Thailand?

I'm sure it would be easy. But not everyone applying for these 'affidavits' has easily verifiable income.

 

I expect others will follow - especially if/when immigration announce an alternative. 3 of the 4 have high expat numbers making verification a lot of 'extra' work that would undoubtedly throw up problems. The British embassy claims to do 250 income letters per month.

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, malt25 said:

Rubbish ! Embassies aren't for nursemadeing expats. To forge a bank statement or the like isn't difficult these days. To VERIFY an income could be time consuming if not almost impossible in some instances especially with privacy laws & such. Most embassies, if not all, aren't here to hold our hand. If you find yourself in legal trouble the best you can hope for is maybe your embassy might recommend a lawyer. I'm an expat, retired using the income method. I'll be waiting for the official IO ruling before I start to lose any sleep. Way too much knee jerk reaction so far.

Rubbish! The primary purpose of an embassy is to assist American citizens who travel to or live in the host country.

 

https://www.state.gov/discoverdiplomacy/diplomacy101/places/170537.htm

 

Who should I believe a random poster on Thai visa or The USA Department of State?

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I'm sure it would be easy. But not everyone applying for these 'affidavits' has easily verifiable income.

 

I expect others will follow - especially if/when immigration announce an alternative. 3 of the 4 have high expat numbers making verification a lot of 'extra' work that would undoubtedly throw up problems. The British embassy claims to do 250 income letters per month.

I don't expect others will follow.  It would be too easy to hire a Thai accountant to do the work and turn it into a revenue source.  The 4 embassies discussed are not bright enough to have figured that out. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by marcusarelus

[balo]

But.... can she cook?? (Just kidding)
 
In all seriousness, I would be willing to bet there will be ways for your friend to stay in Thailand. He'll just have to get 'creative'
 

Are you suggesting using 'an agent' ?

[elviajero]

24 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't expect others will follow.  It would be too easy to hire a Thai accountant to do the work and turn it into a revenue source.  The 4 embassies discussed are not bright enough to have figured that out. 

When the British embassy first announced I said others would follow, and they did, so we'll see who's right going forward.

 

I also predict immigration will start rejecting letters from embassies, unless the letter confirms that they have verified the income. In which case they will be forced to follow or actually verify the income.

Edited January 2, 2019 by elviajero

[sumrit]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

No they don't.  The embassies want to work less.  It would be easy to show the embassy a SS statement or bank statement.  They don't want to look and write a letter.  It is called civil servants forgetting what the words civil servant means.  

For those of us from the UK we have been showing the Embassy that: pension income, investment income, etc and bank statements showing those various payment incomes to enable us to get our income letters, we couldn't just pick a figure out of the air and lie in an affidavit as you could in some countries Embassies. 

 

Like me, a lot of people have income from several different sources. The Embassy are not accountants, they cannot be expected to contact each and every different type of income source from every single applicant to verify everybody's actual income. And that's assuming everybody has correctly asked for their information to be released under the data protection laws.

 

In the past, there probably wasn't a lot of people fiddling the system so everything was more relaxed but over the years it seems more and more started manipulated their income letters and used agents to fiddle the system until we've reached today's problems. If you want to blame anybody, blame the people who've been on the fiddle and stayed in Thailand illegally for years. We're suffering the new restrictions because of them. 

[mogandave]

Americans mostly Social Security would be easy.  But why only 4 embassies out of all of the countries with embassies in Thailand?

The US Embassy/Consulate currently has no way of verifying income, from SS or otherwise. They were willing to notarize/certify the identity of the applicants affidavits, as they currently have no way of substantiating the applicant’s income, they have no way of verifying it.

While verification of SS would likely be relatively easy to set up, I think many people do not receive over $2K a month in SS.

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, elviajero said:

When the British embassy first announced I said others would follow, and they did, so we'll see who's right going forward.

 

I also predict immigration will start rejecting letters from embassies, unless the letter confirms that they have verified the income. In which case they will be forced to follow or actually verify the income.

Just how is Thailand going to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income?  Are they going to threaten not to let the 30 million Chinese tourists come to Thailand in 2019?  Think a little bit about the real world. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by marcusarelus

[bkk6060]

32 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't expect others will follow.  It would be too easy to hire a Thai accountant to do the work and turn it into a revenue source.  The 4 embassies discussed are not bright enough to have figured that out. 

You are 100% correct.

Those that blame the Thai immigration for this are wrong.

It was a simple question asked by Thai Imm and the embassies have flat out told them they can and will not verify income.

I would be fairly simple for the embassies to solve, but they will not.

Just laziness and lack of caring....

[sumrit]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Just how is Thailand going to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income?  Are they going to threaten not to let the 30 million Chinese tourists come to Thailand in 2019?  Think a little bit about the real world. 

 

This is NOT about tourists coming to Thailand, whether it's 30 million or just one.

 

The verification of income is solely about people on extensions of stay that have been using the 65k baht monthly income option. 

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, sumrit said:

This is NOT about tourists coming to Thailand, whether it's 30 million or just one.

 

The verification of income is solely about people on extensions of stay that have been using the 65k baht monthly income option. 

My point was that Thai immigration has no leverage with China because China provides 10% of the Thai GNP from tourism and the last person a Thai government official would like to anger is the Chinese Ambassador.  Thia Immigration will do cartwheels and paint the office red and gold if the Chinese embassy suggested it.  If China wants Thailand to accept an income letter on faith they will accept it. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by marcusarelus

[mogandave]

Just how is Thailand going to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income?  Are they going to threaten not to let the 30 million Chinese tourists come to Thailand in 2019?  Think a little bit about the real world. 

Thailand does not need to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income, they will take the word of the Chinese government, just like they would take the word of the US government.

[marcusarelus]

Just now, mogandave said:

 

Thailand does not need to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income, they will take the word of the Chinese government, just like they would take the word of the US government.

That's why the fault is on the embassy side and not the Immigration side.  Thailand was taking the embassy word until the Brits decided to tell them they were just kidding and didn't really check. 

[mogandave]

That's why the fault is on the embassy side and not the Immigration side.  Thailand was taking the embassy word until the Brits decided to tell them they were just kidding and didn't really check. 

The US embassy never verified anyone’s income. All they did was verify who was swearing the oath.

Personally, I do not believe the US government should be in the habit of verifying something as true when they have not substantiated it.

[elviajero]

27 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Just how is Thailand going to confirm that the Chinese embassy is actually verifying income?  Are they going to threaten not to let the 30 million Chinese tourists come to Thailand in 2019?  Think a little bit about the real world. 

What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?

 

I doubt there are many Chinese expats using income letters from their embassy to prove income for an extension of stay.

 

Thailand cannot confirm that any Embassy have "actually verified income". Presumably they are happy to accept the written confirmation that they have. The problem is that four Embassies are not prepared to state they've done something they haven't.

[marcusarelus]

49 minutes ago, elviajero said:

What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?

 

I doubt there are many Chinese expats using income letters from their embassy to prove income for an extension of stay.

 

Thailand cannot confirm that any Embassy have "actually verified income". Presumably they are happy to accept the written confirmation that they have. The problem is that four Embassies are not prepared to state they've done something they haven't.

There has been no change in Thai Immigration policy.  There has been a change in policy of 4 embassies.  If you know of a link that confirms any change in Thai Immigration policy please post it. 

 

The problem is 4 embassies changed policy. 

[elviajero]

10 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

There has been no change in Thai Immigration policy.  There has been a change in policy of 4 embassies.  If you know of a link that confirms any change in Thai Immigration policy please post it. 

 

The problem is 4 embassies changed policy. 

I know there has been no change in immigration policy. They have always wanted the embassies to verify income.

 

Embassies who realise they can't continue issuing the letters in the current format, as they can't/won't verify the income, have decided not to issue anymore, presumably for fear of legal implications.

[JimGant]

It's been several months now that 4 embassies ceased issuing income letters. Why haven't any more embassies followed suit?

 

Probably because they've gone back and analyzed the message delivered to them by Thai Immigration. Or maybe they asked Thai Immigration for clarification. In either case, they've determined what Thai Immigration was asking for was *not* 100% verification -- but "good faith" verification. And they were satisfied that, indeed, their verification efforts met the "good faith" criteria.

 

Why Britain and Denmark punted is a mystery. They had a system that, while not foolproof, certainly acted as a deterrent against phony income reporting. But, apparently they interpreted the Thai message as wanting 100% assurance -- something they could not meet. Did the Thai Immigration officer who delivered the message come across stronger than intended? Did the language barrier twist the intended message? Who knows. But if the British and Danish embassies believed that 100% verification was what was being asked for, then of course they had to cash in. And, of course, the US and Aussie embassies had no "good faith" system in place -- so their demise was a given.

 

But all the other embassies, watching the hoopla from the sidelines, probably asked the Thais for clarification -- and subsequently got the "good faith" answer. So, don't expect these embassies to join the exodus -- certainly if they had intended to, we would have seen something by now.

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I know there has been no change in immigration policy. They have always wanted the embassies to verify income.

 

Embassies who realise they can't continue issuing the letters in the current format, as they can't/won't verify the income, have decided not to issue anymore, presumably for fear of legal implications.

Now we are getting to my point.  You wrote, " What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?"  Do you think the Chinese are afraid of legal implications?  Or that the Thais would dare anger the Chinese?  Why?  Because of 30 million Chinese tourists. 

[elviajero]

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Now we are getting to my point.  You wrote, " What have Chinese tourists got to do with it!?"  Do you think the Chinese are afraid of legal implications?  Or that the Thais would dare anger the Chinese?  Why?  Because of 30 million Chinese tourists. 

1. There are not 30M Chinese tourists.
2. More relevant is that Thailand make all Chinese tourists apply for a visa, and that doesn't seem to "anger the Chinese"!

The issue is about expats needing proof of income to get a permit to stay for 1 year. When/if the average Chinese become able to - and want to en masse - live in Thailand it might become an issue. Until then, as I said, there are very few expat Chinese relying on income letters - making your point irrelevant.