Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[glegolo]

57 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not sure there are many that actually verify the income by verifying it by contacting the source of the income.

Most just look at what you give them and do the letter. Basically the same as the UK embassy was doing.

Yes guesswork is also a way of arguing. But you guys has no clue at all...

 

glegolo

[wgdanson]

10 minutes ago, mikosan said:

Section 5 is interesting.  I read it that you must have an annual income of 800k and have deposited that sum in a Thai bank, in any 12 month period.  So an average of 66666.6667 Thai baht per month.  Just need to persuade the local Immigration officer that's what is says! 555  

Read carefully again, Section 5.......deposited with a bank totaling not less than Bht 800,000 as of the filing date. This kind of contradicts Section 4 which says Bht 800,000 in a THAI bank for 3 months. Confusing.

[glegolo]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Are you telling us that your Embassy officials go through every document you supply them with, verifying them with the issuing authority, ie Pension people, Investment company, Bank interest, private Rental contract, before they issue the Letter of Income. I doubt it very much.

We have to present in original i.e. the tax-declaration for the last year, original statements from banks as well....

 

So dont be pissed off because you do NOT have a system in place.... Just shape up your own stuff instead of doubting others..

 

glegolo

Edited November 2, 2018 by glegolo

[cleopatra2]

Just now, wgdanson said:

Read carefully again, Section 5.......deposited with a bank totaling not less than Bht 800,000 as of the filing date. This kind of contradicts Section 4 which says Bht 800,000 in a THAI bank for 3 months. Confusing.

It is the combination method , where for example a person has income of 40,000  a month and savings of 400,000 , resulting in more than 800,000 in a year

[glegolo]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

Why was the Aussie system a 'stunt'? They did exactly what they claimed to do: They witness YOUR signature on YOUR stat dec. So where's the stunt? Certainly not with the Embassy!!!

When you gives the empression that you are confirming somthing, that is a stunt

 

glegolo

[Kelsall]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

There is no reason for an increase at this time, and the Thai government don’t want us gone!

 

I am only surprised that these worthless embassy letters/affidavits have been accepted for so long.

I'm not so sure about that.  The Chinese are bringing in plenty of money and the ethnicity issue works in favor of them and against almost all of us.

[mikosan]

2 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Ubonjoe , the section 5 being referred to is for the combination method

I guess it's a matter of interpretation, but that's not what is says to me and in fact I see no mention of the combination method.  Please don't think I am trying to be argumentative, I am not, I am just putting it out there for discussion.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, mikosan said:

Far be it me to argue with you Ubonjoe, but sections 3 & 4 cover that.  Section 5 says something different.  I was simply pointing that out and wondering what the correct interpretation would be.

Section 5 is for combining annual income and and money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht. For example 600k baht of annual income and 200k baht in the bank.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

You’re correct.

 

6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

Which leaves some of us (currently using the income method, but fortunate enough to be able to change to the 'money in bank' method if necessary) in a quandary.

 

i.e. If this really is all down to TI causing problems, then there is a good chance they may increase the 400/800,000 bht 'cash in bank' route?

 

Presumably (?) they would still allow 'grandfathering', so we may be better off using this route at the next extension of stay - rather than making use of the embassies providing proof of income letters that will be accepted for the next 6 months?

[totally thaied up]

2 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

A married man pension if you have assets above AUD 200K, it $642 per fortnight, well under the 40K. Reading on other Facebook forums from all around the country, Dividends and the such would not be taken into account as they are not a firm or ‘lifetime’ benefit. A large part of my income is in dividends and we all know, they are not set in stone. Hence, I can see the 40K a month, if bought in via by Transfer wise, as useless as it is not permanent income (like Centrelink income letter).  In the end, I think 800/400K will be all that is accepted in time. I just will keep 400K in a bank locked up. If they want us farangs with families to stay, I hope they do not raise limits and that they give us some incentives. I am now going to apply for PR for my wife back in Australia just Incase it goes pear shaped. At least she has a path to become a responsible resident in Australia, not like me in Thailand.

[cleverman]

Bali is looking better ever day, rent paid in advance for one year, have health ins., but, there is a way around it. Not off topic mr mod, I don't think. 

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

It is the combination method , where for example a person has income of 40,000  a month and savings of 400,000 , resulting in more than 800,000 in a year

Interpret it how you want. I think I, and others, are clutching at straws with this document. We all know that it is up to Thai Immigration to come out and say what they will accept for extension renewal. As Joe said last week, let's just wait and see what happens. On this subject I bid you all farewell. Bye.

[mikosan]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Section 5 is for combining annual income and and money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht. For example 600k baht of annual income and 200k baht in the bank.

But equally it COULD mean that you have an income of no less than 800k per year and you deposit 800k per year in a Thai bank account.  Wouldn't you agree?  We are talking their written rules here, not how they may or not have been interpreted, correctly or incorrectly, over the years. 

[merijn]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been discussed over and over again the other topics about the embassy income proof. All 3 embassy are saying that you can prove you income by transfer the required income of 40k or 65k baht in a Thai bank. But immigration have not confirmed that will be accepted.

Not sure why you would think immigration would double the money in the bank. There is no basis for stating that.

 

The following information is only confirmed for the US and UK affidavits but i will guess that it will also be applicable for the Australians.

Phuket immigration will only accept the affidavit when this is combined with proof of a Government pension. (which will guarantee the monthly income for the next 12 months)

The information from the embassy is not (yet) confirmed by Thai immigration as acceptable.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

A married man pension if you have assets above AUD 200K, it $642 per fortnight, well under the 40K. Reading on other Facebook forums from all around the country, Dividends and the such would not be taken into account as they are not a firm or ‘lifetime’ benefit. A large part of my income is in dividends and we all know, they are not set in stone. Hence, I can see the 40K a month, if bought in via by Transfer wise, as useless as it is not permanent income (like Centrelink income letter).  In the end, I think 800/400K will be all that is accepted in time. I just will keep 400K in a bank locked up. If they want us farangs with families to stay, I hope they do not raise limits and that they give us some incentives. I am now going to apply for PR for my wife back in Australia just Incase it goes pear shaped. At least she has a path to become a responsible resident in Australia, not like me in Thailand.

I don't think a 'lifetime benefit' is stipulated, if that were the case you would only ever have to prove your income once in your life.

[mikosan]

6 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Interpret it how you want. I think I, and others, are clutching at straws with this document. We all know that it is up to Thai Immigration to come out and say what they will accept for extension renewal. As Joe said last week, let's just wait and see what happens. On this subject I bid you all farewell. Bye.

I agree. It all conjecture and different interpretations at the moment, we'll just have to wait and see.

[wgdanson]

4 minutes ago, mikosan said:

I agree. It all conjecture and different interpretations at the moment, we'll just have to wait and see.

And start saving that 800,000 up.....Bht 66,666.666667 per month.

[MekkOne]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Or you could make a will.

Or you can just die the day after you transferred the money for keep a fart for too long... Just saying...

 

[rexall]

2 hours ago, sfokevin said:

1. The problem with your logic is that enough of your neighbors have lied on these affidavits to cause Immigration to remove them as an option...  <snip>   

2. This will lead to Immigration to requiring even more proof or just making the 800k a year round sum required... 

1. How would TI know that people have lied on the affidavits? They might assume it, or assume that the policy is vulnerable to people lying, or not like the existence of a potential "loophole," but has anyone actually done a proper investigation to determine how widespread liying might be? 

2. Making the 800K a year-round sum would not work because your are supposed to be living on that money, not saving it.  No?

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

A married man pension if you have assets above AUD 200K, it $642 per fortnight, well under the 40K. Reading on other Facebook forums from all around the country, Dividends and the such would not be taken into account as they are not a firm or ‘lifetime’ benefit.

That is not correct. It does not have bo be a lifetime benefit. This is what the police order for required documents states.

 

"5. Only for Criteria (5) paragraph 1 and (6), the applicant must attach a funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook, or attach documents proving that the parents or alien husband earns an average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year, such as any particular individual income tax return together with payment receipt, evidence of receiving retirement pension, evidence of receiving interest from funds deposit, or evidence of having other funds issued by the relevant agency.."

 

 

[onera1961]

As this forum is in English, I guess other nationals reading this forum are few and far between. If you're reading this forum can you post your embassies policies as of today. I think French embassy has already posted they cannot issue affidavit. The tsunami is coming. Be prepared with alternate strategies. 

[car720]

2 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

Since when did the Australian government, or public service for that matter, ever care about their citizens?

[Guest]

While it is reasonable to stop letting anyone with $50 walk into the American Embassy and leave with some BS “Income Verification”  … it is ABSURD that the same government sending my monthly retirement payment cannot VERIFY that FACT.

The system is easy. 

 

(1)  The Embassy records the THB – USD ratio on the 5^th of every month and establishes an average.

 

(2)  The US Retiree provides both his letter of payment form the government (sent annually) and a Thai bank book showing the monthly deposit.  (How hard it this to verify ... it is the SAME GOVERNMENT ... can you say "Computers and Data Bases?")

 

(3)  Let's say the monthly payment is $1,000. Multiply that times the average annual THB – USD ratio and “there it is” … your VERIFIED annual contribution!

 

 

 

[car720]

The only motive that I can see for this is that they want the falang out so that they can attract more Chinese, who supposedly have more money.

No problem because the Chinese will overrun the place soon enough.  The Vietnamese have not soon forgotten that North Vietnam used to belong to China and you know how the Chinese are about history.

[ubonjoe]

26 minutes ago, mikosan said:

I guess it's a matter of interpretation, but that's not what is says to me and in fact I see no mention of the combination method.  Please don't think I am trying to be argumentative, I am not, I am just putting it out there for discussion.

It does not say combination but that is what this means.

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date."

Annual earnings and funds deposited in a bank are two different things that are totaled up to reach 800k baht.

[korkenzieher]

3 hours ago, giddyup said:

It's designed to force expats to actually prove they can meet the financial criteria instead of signing a possibly fraudulent stat dec.

Could be part of it - but really what do they care as long as you are not being supported, or needing support, or working illegally? The 800k is a safety-net deposit in reality.

 

Actually, I think what is happening is that slowly but surely we are heading towards retirement visas being issued on a remittance basis only. In other words, you will have to show on an ongoing basis that you are transferring that money into the country. Whether *you* feel it is necessary or not. And it smells like government has become desperate to shore up its foreign currency reserves to me. IMO an increasing number of people will take this as a sign to leave, whether they are financially secure or not. You are being *told* what you have to spend!

[mikosan]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It does not say combination but that is what this means.

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date."

Annual earnings and funds deposited in a bank are two different things that are totaled up to reach 800k baht.

Or maybe that is what it has been interpreted to mean.  Equally it could be interpreted the way I have suggested.  That's why lawyers make so much money and judges sometimes seem to make peculiar judgements, it's a matter of interpretation and establishing case law.  But whatever, I respect your knowledge on this and related subjects.  Let's wait and see what happens.

Edited November 2, 2018 by mikosan

[mfd101]

44 minutes ago, glegolo said:

When you gives the empression that you are confirming somthing, that is a stunt

 

glegolo

Under Australian law, the person who signs a stat dec knowing it is false may be imprisoned for 4 years. The policeman, lawyer, public servant, school teacher and other honourable people who WITNESS your signature on the document bear NO responsibility for the substance of the document.

 

This is no different from the system that applies in 101 civilized countries all around the world.

[rexall]

1 hour ago, LomSak27 said:

Awards for most ridiculous Conspiracy theory Post  goes to ezzra.     Since 1997 the powers that be have pursued a policy to discourage westerners. A fact not a theory. Will they raise the 400 and 800 k in a year? likely they could. However if the Chinese wave remains at ebb tide, maybe they rethink it.

Well, the 800k/400K has never made sense. Why would you need 800K to retire and only 400K to support a family?

[LomSak27]

Just now, rexall said:

Well, the 800k/400K has never made sense. Why would you need 800K to retire and only 400K to support a family?

Sure buit what happens happens - I just got my extension so good for 13 months ... what happens then I don't know and really don't care all that much. Good year to explore other options.