Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[scottiejohn]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The grandfathered, lowered amounts are still part of the current police order.

 

If any of them are TV members, they're either happy and not making a noise

Correct, if "grandfathered" you have no problems regarding the annual bank account method as the sums are still the same but there could be problems proving the monthly road.

[Just Weird]

5 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I was only referring to people who are on marriage extensions.

Can extensions to used "marriage" visas be done there?

Edited November 2, 2018 by Just Weird

[zydeco]

1 hour ago, miamiman123 said:

To force em back home!

And it just might be that Western countries want to force their citizens back home, whether the Thais do or not.  All that income not going into the home country economy is not something governments like.  Neither do embassies like dealing with citizens who get into trouble and get themselves killed, injured, imprisoned, or hospitalized.  It will cut down on the embassies' headaches if they got rid of us, too.  Then, they could downsize some more.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, chrisinth said:

I don't think there is any embassy or consulate out there that can verify, as true, an individual's claim to income as they don't have access, authority, manpower or time to do this. Further, I believe this stipulation, of verifying individual incomes, has been put to all embassies & consulates in Thailand already with only UK, US & Aus reacting so far.

 

IMO, for income method for extensions based on marriage and retirement for an individual, will be a 12 month statement from the person's Thai bank showing an average monthly income of either +40,000 baht or +65,000 baht (not sure how exchange rates will affect this or if they will use the exchange rate at time of application to access).

For the retirement income choosing the double option of money in the account and reduced monthly income, that will remain as long as, on average, +65,000 baht is shown. Covering letter from the bank to the state of the account will become accepted as normal procedure, TBC as acceptable by Thai Immigration at a later date.

 

Only my thoughts on this, nothing verified or clarified.

I disagree.. countries like the Netherlands you can ask a income statement from the tax office. That one is pretty hard to fake, if they just notarize what is on it its many times safer and harder to cheat as what is done now.

 

You actually have to present evidence at the Dutch embassy and it does get checked. hard to forge those things (everything can be forged of course but not by everyone).

 

I said it before just make pensioners who want a statement file tax in their home country. Let the embassy translate and notarize these forms and your done. The tax office does all the checking (that is what they are for).

 

It can be done for sure IF countries want it.

 

[ThaiFelix]

I may be being paranoid (and I am sure some here will agree) but I wonder if this move by Thai Immigration is related to the survey done a few months ago where the results showed that most expats surveyed were living here on (or less than?) 45,000 baht a month.  Maybe someone from Big Brother reads these surveys (and everything on Thaivisa, Facebook etc) and wonders how there are so many on retirement visas here when most only have an income of approx. 45,000 per month, not 65,000 as required. Sure there are many with the 800k or 400k in the bank like myself but there are also a lot who believe I am an idiot for tying up these funds. 

 

This result may also worry some in Govt that many expats may not have the funds to cover themselves in the event of a serious accident or illness.  It seems to me that every time I complete a survey it comes back to bite me, so now I refuse to partake.  What do you think?

[Billthekiwi]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

Thanks for that, no real surprise, I suspect the other embassies will follow suit ????

 

The links at the bottom of the notice don't really help as there are no specifics other than the full deposit option 

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_18

 

I've fixed the spelling error in the topic title ????

 

I would not expect Australia to help it's retirees living in Thailand.

They can't do it at home so why be different here?

[Russell17au]

Here is the Australian aged pension rates for those living in Australia and that took 5 seconds to Google it. So there is no Breach of privacy laws and all that the embassy would have to do is look at those figures and look at the figures that you put on the Statutory Declaration and there is your verification of income. These figures are available to anyone with a computer to search out. The only difference is that anyone who is living outside Australia does not receive the "Clean Energy Supplement" and they only receive a portion of the "pension supplement"

 

 Age pension rates

	Single person	Couple living together
Maximum basic rate	$834.40	$629.00 each
Maximum pension supplement	$67.80	$51.10 each
Clean energy supplement	$14.10	$10.60 each
Total per fortnight	$916.30	$690.70 each

[Just Weird]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

??  Those relying on proof of income statements from their (UK, US, Aus) embassies have every right to be very concerned if they are unable to meet the 800k in Thai bank route!

Why should they be concerned if they have a monthly income that will be accepted?

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Citation needed.

 

Do you know or have read about anyone trying it and being declined? Maybe there's a band of silently happy long-termers who have been doing it this way for years and have never had issues and right now they are having a right old giggle at all this panic.

 

And yet not one has posted on any of these threads...

[namatjira]

She’ll be right mate, it’s as right as rain, let’s throw another shrimp on the Barbie 

[zydeco]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

I can see Khason road scenario take 2. 

 

First they wil do all they can to get people out. Once they see the damage it has done , they will start to brain storm on how to get them back , only I doubt those who are gone will return 

I doubt whether Thailand really cares.  They certainly did a few decades ago, when Thailand depended on Western money and Western goodwill to survive.  Nowadays, all Thailand cares about is China. A lot of what they perceive as Western influences are regarded as a nuisance at best, a severe problem at worst.  You could tell things were going to change when the supermarkets in CTW and Paragon started printing out the food aisles signs in Chinese.

[fred110]

Then the thais can sieze all bank accounts?

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Where are you going to get 0.6667 satang from?

I'd borrow the bro-in-laws angle grinder.

[Henricus]

6 hours ago, giddyup said:

The 800K hasn't been increased for many years so it would be no surprise to see an increase, but tell me, why would the Thai government want us gone?

The last 10 years i know no increasing of that 800 K 

[Moonlover]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

a lot of gloom and doom merchants here today, it's the thrill of looking at a bad storm through the window and saying you hope the roof doesn't blow off. As of yet NOTHING has changed OFFICIALLY except that three, 3, embassies have said they aren't issuing the letters, the reaction from TI still isn't forthcoming but whatever happens you can be sure that there wont be huge changes in rules and procedures.

 

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

??  Those relying on proof of income statements from their (UK, US, Aus) embassies have every right to be very concerned if they are unable to meet the 800k in Thai bank route!

Why should they be concerned? As Soalbundy said 'there won't be huge changes in rules and procedures'.

 

The only thing that will change is how an 'income based application' is presented to Immigration. Income into a Thai bank account seems to be the horse to back right now.

 

I'm on an income base extension right now and I'm not, in the least concerned.

[soalbundy]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

??  Those relying on proof of income statements from their (UK, US, Aus) embassies have every right to be very concerned if they are unable to meet the 800k in Thai bank route!

I agree but there is time before it gets critical and Thai pragmatism will come to the fore. I was referring to such comments as Thai's want us all out or the money required will be doubled etc. It is worrying for all expats because even though the European embassies are still issuing the letters (I just checked the German website) we don't know if this will change or if the IO in future will accept them, at the moment nothing has changed for us but it is a bad feeling, any bureaucratic attack on one group of farang is a cause for alarm for all of us.

[Pattaya46]

2 minutes ago, Henricus said:

The last 10 years i know no increasing of that 800 K 

I think last increase was in 2003, from 500k to 800k.

Udonjoe described that well, somewhere in one of the 3 long topics about income letters...

[dallen52]

5 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

True.

But the Australia pension (be it greater than the UK pays) still falls short of 65,000 baht a month income level.

Once you are away from the home country and the supplements drop off, you will be around the 40,000 baht a month income. 

Current exchange rate. 

So you need say 25k more each month just to meet the criteria as laid down. 

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Kelsall said:

I'm not so sure about that.  The Chinese are bringing in plenty of money and the ethnicity issue works in favor of them and against almost all of us.

Sure they are...

 

"The move is one of a number of measures being considered by the government to halt the recent decline in foreign tourists, especially from China."

[Derek B]

5 hours ago, Will27 said:

I don't think the OAP meets the financial requirements anyway.

 

I'd suggest most of the Aussies would have more than just the pension.

 

6 hours ago, TSF said:

Looks like all farang living in Thailand on annual extensions will now need to have the 400K & 800K THB in a Thai bank account in order to continue living in Thailand. Now, just wait and see if next year they'll double the required sums. I've been expecting it for a couple years now, but it'll happen because they want you gone.

They need us - we spend money that goes straight into families in local communities - without us alot of poor people are going to get a nasty surprise.

[Will27]

9 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Here is the Australian aged pension rates for those living in Australia and that took 5 seconds to Google it. So there is no Breach of privacy laws and all that the embassy would have to do is look at those figures and look at the figures that you put on the Statutory Declaration and there is your verification of income. These figures are available to anyone with a computer to search out. The only difference is that anyone who is living outside Australia does not receive the "Clean Energy Supplement" and they only receive a portion of the "pension supplement"

 

 Age pension rates

	Single person	Couple living together
Maximum basic rate	$834.40	$629.00 each
Maximum pension supplement	$67.80	$51.10 each
Clean energy supplement	$14.10	$10.60 each
Total per fortnight	$916.30	$690.70 each

I'm pretty sure when you're living overseas the pension is around 40 000 Baht per month.

 

It's a moot point though, they ain't going to do it.

[Kerryd]

1 minute ago, Henricus said:

The last 10 years i know no increasing of that 800 K 

I think the last increase (from 200k to 800k or maybe it was 400k for singles to 800k) was back in 1997 if memory serves. I recall - wait - it was in a link I posted in another thread - that people who were on Retirement/Marriage extensions before the hike were grandfathered - so long as they maintained their Extensions. (Any gap, for any reason, would break the continuity and result in those people having to meet the higher requirements in the future.

Where was that link now.......

Found it. The change was in 1998.

"(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been consecutively
permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following criteria:

(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with funds maintained in
a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have a monthly income of
no less than Baht 20,000.

(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual fixed
income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht
500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000."
https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22

[Jumbo1968]

They might allow 65000 baht a month showing coming into a Thai Bank Account but what guarantee is that it will continue ?

[zydeco]

Okay, I've been doing the letter for several years.  The question now is about Chaeng Wattana.  If I now need the notarized bank statement showing my income and/or 800,000 deposited, do I need that done the day I get my extension or the day before?  If the day of, that means waiting in line at Bangkok Bank in the morning for the statement and then only being able to go to immigration in the afternoon.  Would be nice if I could do it the day before.

[merijn]

13 minutes ago, robblok said:

I disagree.. countries like the Netherlands you can ask a income statement from the tax office. That one is pretty hard to fake, if they just notarize what is on it its many times safer and harder to cheat as what is done now.

 

You actually have to present evidence at the Dutch embassy and it does get checked. hard to forge those things (everything can be forged of course but not by everyone).

 

I said it before just make pensioners who want a statement file tax in their home country. Let the embassy translate and notarize these forms and your done. The tax office does all the checking (that is what they are for).

 

It can be done for sure IF countries want it.

 

That is correct, The Dutch embassy changed their procedure a while ago.

Before you did not need to supply any evidence and you received a certificate comparable to a affidavit.

Now you have to supply evidence which will be compared and approved by the Dutch tax department.

After this you will receive the income certificate which is accepted by the Thai immigration without any problem.

 

So if the countries want they can supply the income certificate but it takes more effort on their side.

 

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, dallen52 said:

True.

But the Australia pension (be it greater than the UK pays) still falls short of 65,000 baht a month income level.

Once you are away from the home country and the supplements drop off, you will be around the 40,000 baht a month income. 

Current exchange rate. 

So you need say 25k more each month just to meet the criteria as laid down. 

But that still reduces the amount that you need in the bank when you do a combination system for the retirement extension. A lot of people including you are forgetting that you do not need 65,000B per month if you are doing the combination of income and bank account because whatever income you are receiving reduces the amount that you have to have in the bank. If you are receiving 40,000 per month then that is 480,000B per year so you only need 320,000B in the bank to give you the 800,000B required for your retirement extension.

[damascase]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I agree but there is time before it gets critical and Thai pragmatism will come to the fore. I was referring to such comments as Thai's want us all out or the money required will be doubled etc. It is worrying for all expats because even though the European embassies are still issuing the letters (I just checked the German website) we don't know if this will change or if the IO in future will accept them, at the moment nothing has changed for us but it is a bad feeling, any bureaucratic attack on one group of farang is a cause for alarm for all of us.

‘My’ Dutch Embassy changed last year to a system where you have to provide - easily verifiable - evidence regarding your income. I have to submit the yearly statement of my pension funds concerning the amount paid in a calendar year, and the withheld income tax. Furthermore they require copies of monthly bank statements showing the amounts received.

As far as I know, there are no plans to change this as the current method is based on an agreement with Immigration.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, merijn said:

The following information is only confirmed for the US and UK affidavits but i will guess that it will also be applicable for the Australians.

Phuket immigration will only accept the affidavit when this is combined with proof of a Government pension. (which will guarantee the monthly income for the next 12 months)

The information from the embassy is not (yet) confirmed by Thai immigration as acceptable.

Which is all fine and dandy for the guys +65 who are getting a pension but is bugger all use to the vast majority availing themselves of the police order's stated age qualification of being 50 and above.

 

Interesting to note, but probably just an affection of the Phuket IO and not of huge significance to those parked elsewhere.

[misterphil]

43 minutes ago, keithet said:

I read a few comments about depositing monthly deposits into a Thai bank to meet the 40/65 thousand baht required amount.

Do you think if imagration excepts this in the future, would it have to be every month or do you think a couple of transfers equal to it? I ask because a couple of transfers is alot cheaper than 12

Not really if you use transferwise. 

[sambum]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

And what about other cases, like mine, where I only get a part goverment pension because of other income, like interest on term deposits, allocated pensions, superannuation, rental income etc? Do you think embassies have the time, expertise or manpower to be checking all that out.

And also as I believe has already been mentioned, there are no doubt thousands of us in a similar position. I get a full Government pension, a works pension, rental income, and other assets which in total meet the 800,000 baht requirement. But I am not in a position to put that 800,000 baht in a Thai bank for 3 months, as I need that money to live off. It converts to about 360 British pounds a week (or more than 15,000 baht a week) How many Thai pensioners have that kind of income?

 

I think that the other problem is that Thai Immigration also do not have the expertise or manpower to even translate copies of foreign Bank statements etc, and as yet do not seem to be willing to accept a written affidavit by a suitably qualified Thai lawyer to verify these as genuine "Proof of Income", and seem set that the only option is the money in the Thai bank method, and as for the "average"of 65,000 baht a month for 12 months, how is one supposed to achieve that if, for instance your extension is due in July? (Incidentally, that is the first time that I have seen an actual length of time for the monthly amount to have been going into a Thai bank account - has that been verified by Immigration?)