Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[sumrit]

  

Quote

 

4 hours ago, giddyup said:

It's designed to force expats to actually prove they can meet the financial criteria instead of signing a possibly fraudulent stat dec.

 

39 minutes ago, OmarZaid said:

Exactly --- they want the lying riff-raff gone

  

Pure conjecture but, once we've all legally proved and confirmed our income while living in Thailand, they could change the rules further. The next step could be for us to complete a Tax Return form from the Thai Tax Office. Having to pay Tax in Thailand on money earned elsewhere would be bad enough but, for those on the fiddle, having to pay tax on income they don't actually have, but fiddled the figures to get a visa................ ????????

 

And insisting we all put our incomes in a Thai bank to match those using the 800/400k baht method, then taxing all of us on our incomes would create a lot of income for the Government.

 

[JackThompson]

 

2 hours ago, giddyup said:

2 hours ago, TSF said:

Looks like all farang living in Thailand on annual extensions will now need to have the 400K & 800K THB in a Thai bank account in order to continue living in Thailand. Now, just wait and see if next year they'll double the required sums. I've been expecting it for a couple years now, but it'll happen because they want you gone.

The 800K hasn't been increased for many years so it would be no surprise to see an increase, but tell me, why would the Thai government want us gone?

Only gone if we aren't paying agent-laundered "tribute" to them.  In-person applicants don't pay tribute, so are being whittled-away.  The reality following TI's previous crackdowns demonstrate the only purpose was increasing this sort of "tribute." 

 

45 minutes ago, Shiver said:

I haven't followed the whole of all the threads on this topic, so apologies if I'm repeating someone else's comments, but...

 

Wouldn't it be better for all concerned that they just demand some money be kept on escrow (eg. $2000) so that if they have a need to send you back for some reason, they're doing it on the foreigners funds, then do like Cambodia and charge a few hundred dollars for a 1 year visa, and forget the 90 day thing, and make life more simple for all concerned?

Sure - But how would that make agent-money or elite-money for immigration to pocket?  They could just require "stabilize and send-home" health-insurance, and all "foreigner" potential liabilities would be covered - hence no need to peek into private financial matters at all.  Any foreign beggar/vagrants (who managed to pay for the health-insurance) would be picked-up and deported on-sight.

 

37 minutes ago, poanoi said:

hoping they will just ditch requirements altogether beside stating how much they want per year, its more transparent, its easier to compare

living cost with other nations, it will end immigration corruption just like that, and to top it off the state of thailand makes more money

"End immigration corruption" is not the goal.  In-person applications for extensions do not (usually) generate under-the-table money, so they become harder and harder for more and more people every year.  Meanwhile, agent-applications remain trouble-free, with no money, home-visits, TM-30s, etc needed.  This embassy-letter change aims to eliminate another class of people who could previously do honest, in-person, corruption-free applications of stay.

If anything is clear, it is that regulations are not changed for the benefit of the "State of Thailand" or her wonderful people.  If that were the goal, all those expats already forced-out by previous immigration-changes would be welcomed back to resume spending their foreign-sourced capital here, so that the businesses I watched be boarded-up could re-open and re-hire Thais.

[HappyAndRich]

No, problem with this. As already known all 3 embassies state the same information. Put your monthly income in a Thai bank. Nothing wrong with that, because you live here and use the money here.

I am pretty sure Immigration will make clear that will be the way to go. Right now they are only a little bit happy to put some scare into easily scared people.

[trianglechoke]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That has been discussed over and over again the other topics about the embassy income proof. All 3 embassy are saying that you can prove you income by transfer the required income of 40k or 65k baht in a Thai bank. But immigration have not confirmed that will be accepted.

 Not sure why you would think immigration would double the money in the bank. There is no basis for stating that.

 

When you know Thais..........There is EVERY reason to expect it will increase

[Russell17au]

One of the things that none of us know yet is what is Thai Immigration's definition of "INCOME" is going to be. Will transferring money from an overseas bank account into a Thai bank account be classed as income or will you need to show where your income derives from (pension, dividends, etc). There is still a lot of things left unanswered.

[Longcut]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

... but still you chose to finger point and rationalize that someone else has sh!t in your porridge.

Not in mine. I have no problem with funds to stay here.  Like I said, no business or mine. Just feel bad for those that will now have a rough time of it. Apparently, you don't feel the same way.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Longcut

[trianglechoke]

Not that this is a massive deal for me............ But did you ever start feeling you are unwanted??????????

 

Like think 2004 compared to today...................

[keithet]

I read a few comments about depositing monthly deposits into a Thai bank to meet the 40/65 thousand baht required amount.

Do you think if imagration excepts this in the future, would it have to be every month or do you think a couple of transfers equal to it? I ask because a couple of transfers is alot cheaper than 12

[Sydneyboy1]

As a matter of privacy in the case of an Australian stat Dec. The person witnessing the signature is NOT supposed to read the stat Dec. So therefore they shouldn't know what it is about. All they are to do it witness your signature.  

If you have lied under oath, then if your caught you need to deal with the consequences.  

Edited November 2, 2018 by Sydneyboy1

[tandor]

5 hours ago, Russell17au said:

The thing is that anyone who is on a government pension can prove their income quite easy and it is also easy for the embassies to be able to verify government pensions. It would not take much for each of the embassies to have access to the amounts that are paid for the different government pensions. I can print mine out of official Australian government letterhead and it tells the type of pension that I am receiving so how hard would it be for the embassies to have a list of the different government pensions to check.

..no doubt some of the print shops in Khaosan Rd have them all on file.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, wgdanson said:

That's 88,888 Bht per month.

My quick and dirty math equates this as roughly commensurate with 3.7 average 'sponsorships'.

[MikeN]

4 hours ago, Dale75 said:

Logically, all the other embassies should now follow suit. My money would be on Canada & NZ next. I'd also bet that at least one embassy holds out and maintains that it can verify income. My money would be on the Germans for this.

If the Australian embassy really wanted to verify income it would not be too hard, Foreign Affairs would just need to access the ATO database like many other govt depts and agencies. In Australia, unless you want to get slugged with the maximum tax rate, you have to declare your tax file number for all investments, pensions, salaries etc and all income from these is notified to the ATO. So while it makes it harder to cheat on your tax it would also make it easy to verify your income. Possibly the only legal income the ATO “might” not know about automatically would be rental income ?

 So all an authorized embassy staff would need to do is look up your tax file number and confirm #123456789 earned $98765 last year. Whether you would actually want somebody able to pry into your tax affairs is another matter ....

[Kerryd]

People just - don't - get - it.

The Embassies - pretty much all of them - can not verify how much you are actually receiving in pension income, regardless of how many bank slips and statements you show them.

 

The Embassy staff CAN'T check out EVERY detail of EVERY citizen's financial status - period. No matter how much you whine about it (and about the Embassy).

For starters - they'd probably need a court order in order to get even the most basic information because, in most Western countries, your financial details are kept PRIVATE by law.

Even the police need a court order/warrant to access that information so why do so many people think that Embassy staff (who may not even be citizens themselves) are somehow able to press a magic button and get someone's complete financial history within seconds ?
 

Think about it. For one thing - how many of you are paying alimony or spousal/child support or have other liens against your income ? Things that leave you with considerable less than the required sum that Immigration expects you to live on in Thailand. I've met foreigners that have been through 2-3(+) divorces in their home countries already. I highly doubt they are are raking in the kind of pension income that would let them support 2-3 ex's (and however many kids) and still meet Thailand's financial requirements.

 

No matter how many slips of paper they can show to Embassy staff that have no idea and no way of confirming.

 

Get it ? Not everyone in the government has access to your financial information, just like they don't have access to your medical history either. 

No doubt a lot of people are making the required amounts and simply not transferring the money to a Thai bank because (insert 1,000 excuses that all mean basically the same thing here).

But, as I'm sure a lot of you know (or suspect) there are probably more people that do not meet the requirements (note - once again for the narrow minded - I did not say ALL of them don't meet the requirements - that would be "appalling").

That is why a lot (but not all) of them are sqawking. They know they can't meet the requirements and have been using the "income" method because in reality they are not making anywhere near the income they claim they are.
If they suddenly have to prove they are actually getting those amounts by having to put that money in a Thai bank - many of them would be screwed.

 

And the kicker is - I'm sure most of you know that as well.
But no worries - I'm sure everyone that is posting here is actually a closet multi-millionaire, just like most of them supposedly are ex-special forces of some kind or another. 

 

 

[bdenner]

Have not read all of this but my 2 bobs worth:-

 

Not surprised the Australian Embassy has joined the band wagon be it though it is technically illegal, under Australian law, for them to deny "witnessing" a signature on a Stat Dec. None of their business what is written on the Declaration! The onus is on the author to declare true statements.

Interesting to see what the Thai Immigration will do to circumvent the situation!

Ms Dodgy Visa (Udon) and her co-horts in the banking system (800K in and 800 K out) and Immigration must be over the moon = 15K baht this year 25K Baht next (just a guess)!

[mduras01]

It’s sad to hear, but they are just enforcing what has always existed. I also doubt 800k amongst tens of thousands of retirees will make a scratch in the banking sector, as some allude — budget of three trillion baht. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by mduras01

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

My German letter says:-

This is to certify from the documents seen at this embassy that Mr X is receiving annuities from Germany xxxxEuro's. 

While they aren't saying we have checked the source of these documents it does make a positive impression, CERTIFY....IS RECEIVING, makes the right sort of noise

 

And that's all it is, noise.

 

"...from documents seen..."

 

It does not state or imply that they have verified the proof of income. They are simply certifying that they have seen documents, same as the BE was doing and similar to the Australian Stat Dec.

[Kerryd]

1 minute ago, bdenner said:

Have not read all of this but my 2 bobs worth:-

 

Not surprised the Australian Embassy has joined the band wagon be it though it is technically illegal, under Australian law, for them to deny "witnessing" a signature on a Stat Dec. None of their business what is written on the Declaration! The onus is on the author to declare true statements.

Interesting to see what the Thai Immigration will do to circumvent the situation!

Ms Dodgy Visa (Udon) and her co-horts in the banking system (800K in and 800 K out) and Immigration must be over the moon = 15K baht this year 25K Baht next (just a guess)!

I'm sure the government's lawyers are better versed on the subject of what is, or isn't, legal for them to do (or not do).

But feel free to challenge them on that.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Old Croc said:

Going from memory, I could be wrong here.

With previous rises in the required amount in the bank they grandfathered existing clients.  ie, there are retirees still around who only need to prove lower amounts in the bank than needed these days.

Can anyone confirm?

The grandfathered, lowered amounts are still part of the current police order.

 

If any of them are TV members, they're either happy and not making a noise or already dead.

[Just Weird]

41 minutes ago, Will27 said:

There is no financial requirements required for a non-o visa based on marriage at those 2 places.

Ok. So there's nothing advantageous for those wanting an annual extension to their visa based on retirement backed up by income. 

[Jadam]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

It's designed to force expats to actually prove they can meet the financial criteria instead of signing a possibly fraudulent stat dec.

Exactly.  They are now enforcing the rules that people have been skirting around for years and years.
You actually have to have the money that you say you have in Thailand.  Seems pretty straightforward.  If you don't have the money or if it's locked in somewhere, you don't meet the visa requirements.

[unamazedloso]

so this only for extension's only?

 

This does not mean the thai consulate in home countries are going to need the same for applying for visas?

[mfd101]

50 minutes ago, Will27 said:

They (Stat Decs) are still not worth the paper they're written on.

 

MAY be imprisoned.

I haven't heard of many, if any.

Sure, I was merely defended the Australian Embassy against the stupid accusation that it was running 'a stunt'. Which, manifestly, to any reasonable person, it was not. The stat dec system is perfectly well adapted to many functions. It used to be accepted by Thai Immigration for the purposes we know. Apparently it no longer is.

 

This is not the basis for an accusation that the Oz Embassy (or indeed any other Embassy) was/is running a stunt, a racket, lying, misleading or any other nonsense.  The responsibility for those kinds of sins & crimes lies with individual expats exploiting the weakness of Thai law enforcement for their own purposes.

 

Whether particular embassies are helpful & friendly to their expat citizens is another matter. My experience of the Oz Emb is that their service is coolly efficient & useful. Their new appointments system works well. No complaints.

[Will27]

6 minutes ago, MikeN said:

If the Australian embassy really wanted to verify income it would not be too hard, Foreign Affairs would just need to access the ATO database like many other govt depts and agencies. In Australia, unless you want to get slugged with the maximum tax rate, you have to declare your tax file number for all investments, pensions, salaries etc and all income from these is notified to the ATO. So while it makes it harder to cheat on your tax it would also make it easy to verify your income. Possibly the only legal income the ATO “might” not know about automatically would be rental income ?

 So all an authorized embassy staff would need to do is look up your tax file number and confirm #123456789 earned $98765 last year. Whether you would actually want somebody able to pry into your tax affairs is another matter ....

They don't want to verify people incomes.

 

I don't know why you assume that many other governments departments have access to the ATO database either.

Information from the ATO is hard to obtain, even for other government departments.

 

There's no way in the world the ATO would allow it either.

[Will27]

10 minutes ago, MikeN said:

 

Oops, double post.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Will27

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, KiChakayan said:

Should be pretty obvious, no?

A retiree is something like a long term tourist. Thailand is prepared to grant you the privilege to stay, your counterpart is to spend your good money. If you are poor you are not interesting, fair enough.

If you support a Thai family you contribute to the country, just as if you were working or having a business. Therefore they keep the financial requirement to a minimum, expecting the kids to whom you give a good eduction to contribute to the nation once they grow up. 

I'm so tired of these posts that boil down to 'I'm contributing more into the Thai economy than you, because I'm married and have children....

 

The simple fact that un-married, retired folk need to have 65,000 bht p.m. (up until now...) or 800k in the bank - rather disproves your point....

 

I'm in a bad mood, but even so would prefer not to go down the 'I put more into the Thai economy than you' argument.....

[offset]

It will be interesting to see if TI will accept the Australian verification dated after Jan 1, there statement not say it ok for 6 months either

[Jiggo]

6 hours ago, TSF said:

Looks like all farang living in Thailand on annual extensions will now need to have the 400K & 800K THB in a Thai bank account in order to continue living in Thailand. Now, just wait and see if next year they'll double the required sums. I've been expecting it for a couple years now, but it'll happen because they want you gone.

Why do you think double, more scaremongering, have enough of that with BritExit….  

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

I hope, but don't expect, they will allow foreign bank statements proving this as well.

No chance. That was why Thai Immigration invented the income letter option that isn't even mentioned in the relevant police orders. It probably addressed the status quo at the time. Now that the 'bad old guys hiding' situation is reportedly much, much worse, they have withdrawn that luxury.

[Will27]

6 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

Ok. So there's nothing advantageous for those wanting an annual extension to their visa based on retirement backed up by income. 

I was only referring to people who are on marriage extensions.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

a lot of gloom and doom merchants here today, it's the thrill of looking at a bad storm through the window and saying you hope the roof doesn't blow off. As of yet NOTHING has changed OFFICIALLY except that three, 3, embassies have said they aren't issuing the letters, the reaction from TI still isn't forthcoming but whatever happens you can be sure that there wont be huge changes in rules and procedures.

??  Those relying on proof of income statements from their (UK, US, Aus) embassies have every right to be very concerned if they are unable to meet the 800k in Thai bank route!