Where have all the Chinese gone? Thai media say TAT in denial about tourism numbers in Pattaya

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, THE REVERAND said:

Don't forget road traffic accidents are counted  if they die at the scene of the accident. IF they die in the ambulance or at the hospital they are not a road fatality. Creative Counting this is called.

Death within 30 days is considered to be the result of an RTA.

[balo]

On 11/17/2018 at 11:08 AM, Kim J said:

I will ask you one question now, that being: If you were traveling with a wife and small children, would you chose Pattaya for your holiday destination? If so what is it that would draw you here?

You still don't get it do you ? 

It's not the western families that arrives in numbers to Pattaya.  It's the Russians, Chinese and Indians. They are probably not aware of the "dirty" image of Pattaya , as it is not mentioned in their tourist brochures. 

Having said that , there's plenty of family activities outside of the Pattaya bar scene , water parks , zoo, flower garden etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joeyg]

On 11/17/2018 at 7:39 AM, simoh1490 said:

I thought it useful perhaps to compare and see if it's just Pattaya that the Chinese tourists are avoiding or whether it's something else.

 

Once again, Chinese friends have told us repeatedly that the weakness in the Yuan caused by the trade war is the primary reason why the Chinese are not visiting Thailand in greater numbers, a ten percent drop is significant.

 

As for Kim's list....you should perhaps separate Pattaya bashing posts from constructive argument!

I live just North of Pattaya.  The list is 100% accurate.

[smellyfish]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:31 AM, sabian said:

If you look at how much Chinese money has been pumped into Cambodian infrastructure including roads, resorts and holiday locations, it’s pretty obvious where they’re intending to go. Plus the fact it’s much cheaper for the average family with better customer service.

Nope the Chinese are leading the real estate explosion in Bangkok. Shrewd investors dont buy in dodgy resort towns like pattaya!!

[smellyfish]

anybody can go to walking st at 9pm and see the Chinese numbers are insane. Its a good indicator !!!

[simoh1490]

36 minutes ago, joeyg said:

I live just North of Pattaya.  The list is 100% accurate.

I don't care if you live on Beach Road, the post was pure Thailand bashing and nothing more.

[Rimmer]

Off topic and duplicate posts removed

[simoh1490]

I've repeatedly said that Kim J's post that listed the ten negatives about Pattaya was nothing more than Thai bashing and some of you have disagreed - as if further proof were needed, here are his views on the restaurants and food hall at the new T21, simply, the man just doesn'[t like Thailand one little bit:

 

 

[newnative]

5 hours ago, smellyfish said:

Nope the Chinese are leading the real estate explosion in Bangkok. Shrewd investors dont buy in dodgy resort towns like pattaya!!

Not always the case.  My partner and I have done very well buying and selling condos in 'dodgy' Pattaya.  And, the last 3 condos we sold were to Chinese buyers.  

[simoh1490]

5 hours ago, smellyfish said:

Nope the Chinese are leading the real estate explosion in Bangkok. Shrewd investors dont buy in dodgy resort towns like pattaya!!

I read that around 20% of all condo's in Beijing are empty having been bought by "shrewd" Chinese investors, the problem comes that as property prices increase and those absent buyers want to cash in, a property crash will follow as supply outstrips demand...ditto if the government tries to impose controls or impose taxes on vacant condo's. 

 

As for Pattaya condo's: there's almost certainly more Chinese condo buyers/owners in Pattaya than any other nationality, including Thais!

[balo]

7 hours ago, Kim J said:

I get it perfectly. Firstly this thread is about CHINESE tourists as per all of my comments, not Russian, not Indian or Farrang.

Your question was again : 

"I will ask you one question now, that being: If you were traveling with a wife and small children, would you chose Pattaya for your holiday destination? If so what is it that would draw you here?"

 

Yes this thread is about the Chinese but your question was not!   

So please don't ask me to stay on topic.  I simply replied. 

 

And my reply was the Chinese, Indians and Russians bring their families here because its a cheap family holiday for them and they are not aware of the sexpat scene , or they choose to ignore it. 

 

 

 

 

[newnative]

29 minutes ago, Kim J said:

Yes I did indeed ask that question, in order to try and get my point over. Yet despite the constant carping from yourself and others every time I post something, not one of you have answered that question, or added anything else of worth that I have seen.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, (however some do not appear to follow that sentiment) but looking at the number of likes on my post here there does seem to be quite a few that are in agreement with what I originally said.

     Don't give yourself too big a 'that a boy' pat on your back.  Any time a poster bashes Pattaya they are guaranteed a generous number of 'likes'.  These 'likes' for your bashing come mainly from people who maybe visited Pattaya years ago and remember it as it was then and not as it is now.  Or, they come now and tour Walking Street and Soi 6 and think they have seen all Pattaya has to offer and, like you, can't imagine why a family would  choose Pattaya for a vacation.

     For a family vacationing, there are golf course aplenty for Dad, 3 waterparks for the kids, 2 of them only a few years old. Great shopping and entertainment for the whole family at Terminal 21 and Central Festival, and more family entertainment at Nongnooch Gardens and the Kaan show at D'Luck Theater.  Floating Market, island boat trips, the aquarium, Silver Lake, and a whole mall full of kids entertainment at Harbor.   Just scratching the surface.  Pattaya has a lot to offer but most families will have a good time where ever they choose to vacation because they are at some place new and different from their ordinary lives and they are spending family time together.

     

     

[simoh1490]

As said earlier we spent a few days in Pattaya earlier this year, our first time in ten years. We stayed in a nice 4* hotel in Naklua and made the short trip into town daily - shopping and food at Central Festival was good; one of the seafood restaurants on Walking Street was excellent; lunch at the Hard Rock; shopping at the Big C complex near Dolphin; a walk on Beach Road to people watch and see the sights and enjoy the breeze off the water; a quieter walk later to explore Jomtiem Beach; a few hours at Sanctuary of Truth was an amazing experience; Nong Nooch was good but not as good as Chiang Mai's gardens....add to those things a smattering of very decent meals around town and laying around next to the pool, it was a great few days which I'd have no problem repeating. Negatives: taxi cartels (but what else is new), Soi Yamato used to have some good eateries, now it's tacky. Compared to ten and fifteen years ago there was hardly any working girls on Beach Road but there again we were in the hotel by 8 PM most nights, I suppose that sort of thing is there but you have to go looking for it or be paranoid I guess. 

[Tailwagsdog]

Gone? Home i hope, no more a 'great wall of china tour buses' blocking the Soi, no more loud bickering in lift lobbys at 5am, no more riot police required at the seafood buffet. I welcome chinese travellers not floods of cheap tourists.

[a977]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 3:58 PM, marko kok prong said:

Denial is Tat's default position.

And here's me thinking that denial was a river in Africa How silly of me!!!!!!

[The Deerhunter]

Be a bit more clever if they started to look after the interests of the foreigners who live here and spend hundreds of thousands of baht every year, injecting billions into the economy as a form of invisible exports.

[Rimmer]

A troll / slur has been removed

[ronaldo0]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:24 PM, atyclb said:

Where have all the Chinese gone? 

 

hoi an vietnam is wall to wall chinese, standing room only. clean beaches and no mass casualties. hoi an is picture postcard city. relatively very little double pricing or scamming c/w thailand. taxis use meter and take u where you want to go, no gem shop excursions. prices generally less than thailand. vietnamese more ethnically similar to chinese.

Was there in july and seen the same . Coach loads in restaurants at night , hotels full of Chinese only , old town a few in daytime and bus loads at night brought in from da nang and inbetween da nang and hoi an where they have built their own resorts , condos , villas etc. They have built places that have everything like cinemas etc so the guests never need leave the resort which also has a casino in it !!

Much more pleasant place for a holiday and miles and miles of clean beaches with hardly any development on them and most wont have due to the rules which nobody seems to care about here.  

[morrobay]

1 hour ago, ronaldo0 said:

Was there in july and seen the same . Coach loads in restaurants at night , hotels full of Chinese only , old town a few in daytime and bus loads at night brought in from da nang and inbetween da nang and hoi an where they have built their own resorts , condos , villas etc. They have built places that have everything like cinemas etc so the guests never need leave the resort which also has a casino in it !!

Much more pleasant place for a holiday and miles and miles of clean beaches with hardly any development on them and most wont have due to the rules which nobody seems to care about here.  

Indeed this may be just the beginning of Thailand >>>>>>>>>>>> Vietnam

https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+nha+trang+beach&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaxOjr39_eAhUJMI8KHcA4BcgQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1920&bih=920

 

[simoh1490]

3 hours ago, Kim J said:

I appreciate your comments here, however can not agree with your second sentence. My list of points was not Pattaya bashing, too many on here are far too quick to give others a label like this rather than accepting it for what it is, and what I said is simply my opinion based upon daily observations and experiences. I do not hate Pattaya, if that were the case I would have left long ago, but I never have and never will consider Pattaya to be a family friendly tourist destination. Over the years I have spoken to a number of Russian families that were on holiday in Pattaya and most were of the opinion that it was their holiday and enjoyed it but would not be returning to Pattaya because it was a world away from what they were told and expected. Have some Chinese now come to the same conclusion and moved on?

Yet there are people that have been calling down my posts when in their own words; "we spent a few days in Pattaya earlier this year, our first time in ten years". Yes to such a person there would indeed appear to be lots of Chinese tourists around, because on their last visit 10 years ago there were probably none, and the current reductions have happened in the latter part of this year, families in Pattaya those days were predominantly Russians. This person by his own words has not seen how many Chinese have been here over the last few years so does not have a valid comparison to make regarding their currently reducing numbers, yet can still be critical of those that have!

I note your list of attractions and am fully aware of them and indeed have been to many and find them to be of very low standards and overpriced. But in my opinion not only Pattaya, Thailand as a whole has become complacent recently towards tourism, and seem to have stood still, where other countries in the area are constantly developing their tourist industry and in my mind now have far better to offer coupled with greater value for money. I am led to believe the golf options are excellent, but not being a golfer myself can not pass comment, but as for the beaches and the sea it is utterly disgusting. Even my daughter despite her protests when we refused to let her on the beach when she was younger, from the age of about 7 drew the same conclusion as mum and dad. Any seaside family resort should make a clean and pleasant beach their observations would you not think?

We used to holiday several times per year in other locations in Thailand, but for several years now have found what suits us much better in other countries around Asia. For a single man or maybe even a young couple, yes there are obvious merits to Pattaya of course, but personally I will not even take my daughter anywhere near Pattaya centre in the evening, let alone consider stopping on holiday right in the middle of anywhere that even resembles the place.

Ultimately if the authorities are serious about turning Pattaya into a family friendly resort, they need to make massive changes, and first they need to research and find out what foreign families want from a holiday, because clearly they have no idea. The stumbling block is that too many still want the income from the seedy side of tourism and are not prepared to give that up in order to re brand the city. In true Thai style they simply want the best of both worlds, and I am very sorry to tell them with Pattaya in it's current state that will never happen.

12

"Yes to such a person there would indeed appear to be lots of Chinese tourists around, because on their last visit 10 years ago there were probably none, and the current reductions have happened in the latter part of this year, families in Pattaya those days were predominantly Russians. This person by his own words has not seen how many Chinese have been here over the last few years so does not have a valid comparison to make regarding their currently reducing numbers".

 

That same poster however does have a yardstick against which to base his observations regarding the volume of Chinese tourists seen in Pattaya recently and that is a comparison against the typically Chinese dense Chiang Mai which has become increasingly more saturated with them over the past ten years. Are Chinese tourists more in evidence in Pattaya than in Chiang Mai he asks himself, what appears to be the difference between the two in that respect. Well, it seemed to us that the two were very comparable in their percentages, tour buses weren't in evidence as much in either place than they have been in the past but seemingly independent Chinese travellers were seen in quantity, in our hotel, in the restaurant we ate in and in the shopping malls. Ah yes but this thread is about Pattaya you cry - indeed, but as said previously several times, it's is naive at best if not futile to look at the problem in isolation and to arrive at reasonable conclusion one needs, as you have pointed out, to make comparisons between locations and over time rather than look solely at Pattaya and trying to figure out what happened.. 

[adammike]

Mass tourism has arrived in Vietnam and to certain extent Cambodia in Siem Reap, looks like the Chinese have taken over Sihanoukville,It will be interesting to see how the "pristine" Vietnamese beaches hold up under the coming assault.Both countries had almost no tourists a decade ago.To the west of Thailand and Indo Chin is 1.7 billion people on the sub continent of India, north there's 1.3billion Chinese That's half! the population of the planet.Pattaya has changed for the better but it struggles as does all of S.E.A. with plastic and garbage and traffic pollution.I would like it to stay as an adult playground to hell with the families there's plenty of places on the Thai coastline that could be developed for families with children,but in These PC days I am afraid that pay for play will be a thing of the past.

[simoh1490]

44 minutes ago, Kim J said:

I agree entirely with you here and you seem to be reinforcing my point. Yes 10 years ago Chinese tourists anywhere in Thailand were a very small minority which has increased rapidly to the masses we have experienced in recent years. The current reductions being discussed by TAT, Pattaya businesses and businesses in other places around Thailand that this news item refers to are a very recent thing and been happening over just the past few weeks or months. Something it would appear you have not seen or experienced if you were  last here in the early part of the year.

There are two questions to be answered, are Chinese tourist visitors to Pattaya much lower, if so, what is the cause. You started off by claiming the cause is that Pattaya is a sh*thole and you posted a list of ten reasons why that is the case. Given that low season in Pattaya is typically May through November and that our earlier visit this year was during the low season we could see no discernable difference between other locations in Thailand and Pattaya when it comes to the density of Chinese tourists. If you are now saying this phenomenon is very very recent, as in the past few weeks, then yes I am not able to comment because I haven't seen it for myself. But if your concern is about the lack of Chinese tourists over just a few weeks in low season, especially when the meeting at the Garden Hotel suggested no real concern up to August, posters must have too much time on their hands to be worried about such things at such an early point in high season! Essentially, you've come up with a list of reasons why Chinese tourists have stopped visiting without actually confirming that they have (FIT versus tour group) which has only allowed you an opportunity to bash!.

[ronaldo0]

1 hour ago, morrobay said:

Indeed this may be just the beginning of Thailand >>>>>>>>>>>> Vietnam

https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+nha+trang+beach&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaxOjr39_eAhUJMI8KHcA4BcgQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1920&bih=920

 

I was shocked when taking off in the plane from da nang at just how many pristine looking beaches I could see in about 20 seconds after just leaving the runway .Hopefully it wont get trashed like some places here ????

[Rimmer]

Off topic video has been removed

[simoh1490]

58 minutes ago, Kim J said:

Many businesses are constantly quoting reductions in volume compared to previous years, including figures for future bookings for the coming high season. But traditional high / low season fluctuations do not generally apply to the Chinese markets as their priorities differ to most Western countries. Traditionally their Golden Week holiday is a premium time for Chinese Tourism which came and went this year in early October, without the usual greatly increased numbers. What I am quoting is not pie in the sky, it is based on my observations and information from numerous sources over a period of time. And yes, the 10 reasons I originally cited, I genuinely believe are a significant contributing factor to the issue of falling numbers of Chinese visitors to Pattaya. I call it my opinion, feel free to call it what you like, it will not change unless you can put something of substance into the discussion which would dictate otherwise.

Those 10, among other reasons were a contributing factor to Pattaya's boom and subsequent decline in Russian visitors a few years ago, something again that you will not have seen or experienced. Is the same now happening to the Chinese market? I would say it looks highly likely, but ultimately only time will tell.

The decline in Russian visitors a few years ago resulted from the Rouble going down the pan, no other reason - the same reason the Chinese tourists have allegedly stopped visiting, because the Yuan has fallen in value.: https://www.forbes.com/sites/susancunningham/2015/03/25/as-ruble-plunges-so-does-russian-tourism-in-thailand/#7e7ea3ac45c7

 

Tell me, is the number of Chinese FIT's down also?

Edited November 19, 2018 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Kim J said:

Yes the 2014 / 2015 crash was a big contributing factor and indeed the straw that broke the camels back, but why have the Russians never returned in the same quantities?

A few years ago I used to spend many many days for a number of years on my friends dive boat in Pattaya, at the height of their boom most of his customers were Russians, he even employed Russian staff to cater for them. I spoke with many, mostly families and the majority did not like Pattaya, many saying it had been misrepresented, was not what they expected and will not be returning. Word got around and there numbers had started to decline long before this financial crash, but nobody really cared at the time, because the slack was being taken up by the ever increasing numbers of Chinese. So I am sorry your statement here is just plain wrong, as this was not the only reason.

But yet again this all happened during a 10 year period when you never even set foot in Thailand, but clearly you know more about it all than those of us that were living here through that time.

 

With regard to FIT tourists, yes I would say they are also down in numbers, but can not be certain. A hotel near where my wife's mother lives caters for the Chinese market and has done since long before the days of the masses, and certainly around there in the evenings there are visibly much less of them over recent weeks. Which is backed up by my wife's friend who owns a pharmacy near this hotel, who also says her takings have plummeted as a result of fewer Chinese tourists.

 

As I said earlier none of this is pie in the sky. I see it with my own eyes on virtually a daily basis.

In case you missed it, I have lived in Thailand full time and continuously since 2004, before that I used Thailand as a base for work in the region since 1991.

 

Nothing but anecdotal data based on a single view, we can't continue this exchange because you are doing nothing other than defending your personal view of Pattaya, why don't you move if you dislike it so much. Out.

[newnative]

5 hours ago, Kim J said:

I appreciate your comments here, however can not agree with your second sentence. My list of points was not Pattaya bashing, too many on here are far too quick to give others a label like this rather than accepting it for what it is, and what I said is simply my opinion based upon daily observations and experiences. I do not hate Pattaya, if that were the case I would have left long ago, but I never have and never will consider Pattaya to be a family friendly tourist destination. Over the years I have spoken to a number of Russian families that were on holiday in Pattaya and most were of the opinion that it was their holiday and enjoyed it but would not be returning to Pattaya because it was a world away from what they were told and expected. Have some Chinese now come to the same conclusion and moved on?

Yet there are people that have been calling down my posts when in their own words; "we spent a few days in Pattaya earlier this year, our first time in ten years". Yes to such a person there would indeed appear to be lots of Chinese tourists around, because on their last visit 10 years ago there were probably none, and the current reductions have happened in the latter part of this year, families in Pattaya those days were predominantly Russians. This person by his own words has not seen how many Chinese have been here over the last few years so does not have a valid comparison to make regarding their currently reducing numbers, yet can still be critical of those that have!

I note your list of attractions and am fully aware of them and indeed have been to many and find them to be of very low standards and overpriced. But in my opinion not only Pattaya, Thailand as a whole has become complacent recently towards tourism, and seem to have stood still, where other countries in the area are constantly developing their tourist industry and in my mind now have far better to offer coupled with greater value for money. I am led to believe the golf options are excellent, but not being a golfer myself can not pass comment, but as for the beaches and the sea it is utterly disgusting. Even my daughter despite her protests when we refused to let her on the beach when she was younger, from the age of about 7 drew the same conclusion as mum and dad. Any seaside family resort should make a clean and pleasant beach their first priority would you not think?

We used to holiday several times per year in other locations in Thailand, but for several years now have found what suits us much better in other countries around Asia. For a single man or maybe even a young couple, yes there are obvious merits to Pattaya of course, but personally I will not even take my daughter anywhere near Pattaya centre in the evening, let alone consider stopping on holiday right in the middle of anywhere that even resembles the place.

Ultimately if the authorities are serious about turning Pattaya into a family friendly resort, they need to make massive changes, and first they need to research and find out what foreign families want from a holiday, because clearly they have no idea. The stumbling block is that too many still want the income from the seedy side of tourism and are not prepared to give that up in order to re brand the city. In true Thai style they simply want the best of both worlds, and I am very sorry to tell them with Pattaya in it's current state that will never happen.

      If you take a gander at your first post, you list a host of things that you find to be shortcomings with regard to Pattaya.  To wit:  Prostitutes, litter, harassment, traffic jams, lack of sidewalks, sidewalks blocked, nowhere to cross busy streets, crime, anti-social behavior, corruption, dishonesty, filthy sea and beaches, and police harassing drivers.  (I disagree with some of the things on the list such as crime and filthy beaches, many of the rest are common in Asia and elsewhere.)

     Supposedly, all these things are turnoffs for tourists but, in reality, residents, both full and part-time, are far more likely to be bothered by them than tourists are.  Tourists are here for around a week; some more, some less.  They may notice the lack of sidewalks but it's not a big deal--they are only walking around for a week. 

     Corruption? Not their problem. Likely they have it where they live, too.  Ditto for traffic jams, harassment, litter, dishonesty, and all the rest.  Again, just here for a week. They can put up with some 'anti-social behavior' and blocked sidewalks. 

      It's residents, both full and part-time, who have to make the decision as to whether the advantages of living in Pattaya outweigh the disadvantages--and any place will have both advantages and disadvantages. Residents are the ones for whom poor sidewalks might, in time, become an irritant. That doesn't happen on a short tourist visit; tourists likely don't even give the things on your list a thought.  And, if they do, it might be along the lines of, "The traffic is just as bad as home. But, a lot better than Bangkok was!"

      My partner and I are going to China for a week.  Many of the things on your list might be found on our trip:  Corruption, dishonesty, anti-social behavior, traffic jams, harassment, litter, nowhere to cross busy streets, police harassing drivers, crime, and so on.  Add to that pollution, lots of smokers smoking everywhere, lots of spitting, lots of shouting at the person standing right next to them, maybe Facebook and other social media sites blocked, and so on. 

     Are the possible drawbacks stopping us from going?  Nope.  Again, just going for a week as tourists to see some places we haven't been and not planning a return visit.  And, as with every place we have visited, I'm sure the positives of the trip will far outweigh the negatives.  I think you'll find it's mostly the same for Pattaya tourists.

      

[newnative]

1 hour ago, Kim J said:

I dare say you will indeed experience a number of those points, however where in China tries to market itself as "South East Asia's Premier Family Resort"? Also what does anything in your post have that relates to the currently declining numbers of Chinese tourists in Pattaya?

 

Although not exclusively the reasons, I think the 10 points I listed are a significant factor behind it. Regardless of what you say, in my opinion Pattaya is anything but a suitable tourist destination for families. I would never take my daughter on holiday to somewhere that even resembled the place, neither would any other responsible parent.

    We'll have to agree to disagree. Whether Chinese tourist numbers are declining, taking a temporary dip, or possibly just reaching a stabilizing point, I have no idea but I doubt the numbers have anything to do with your 10 points.  As I said, the things you mentioned are of far more interest to residents and likely wouldn't be deciding factors for tourists.   

    Are there places in Pattaya not suited for children?  Of course.  And, you'll find that's true for a lot of cities.  But, as again with most cities, the suitable places far outnumber the unsuitable and you don't declare the whole city unsuitable.  The large number of tourist families I see with young children in Wong Amat, Jomtien, Pratamnuk, and other areas of Pattaya tend to dispute your negative view.  Not to mention all the non-tourist families living full-time in the Pattaya area.  But, by all means avoid Pattaya (and food courts) if you feel so strongly.  We'll survive. 

    

[Derek B]

Accurate figures must be available from the various Ports of Entry.

[Ctkong]

On 11/16/2018 at 5:09 PM, Kim J said:

"Where have all the Chinese gone"?

 

Well I would say they have gone just the same way as every group of "quality tourists" that come to Pattaya. Once the reality of the place dawns and word gets around they will simply go anywhere else but here.

My other half was asking me similar questions a few years ago when the Russian families all but disappeared for a time. I simply put one question to her and she has never asked again, that question being: Would you like it and what would we do if we were on holiday here in the middle of Pattaya with our daughter?

Ultimately there is little here to interest or accommodate normal families, take away the bars etc, and what would there be to interest anyone? Here is a brief list of what Pattaya does have.

Endless prostitution.

Filthy sea and beaches.

Litter strewn streets.

Constant harassment.

Permanent traffic jams.

Having to walk on roads due to lack of pavements or pavements blocked with vehicles, retailers etc etc.

Nowhere to safely cross busy roads.

It is rife with crime.

It is rife with antisocial behaviour.

It is rife with corruption and dishonesty.

Constant harassment from police if you drive.

They now want to charge first world prices for third world quality and service.

Maybe all these notoriety make people curious about pattaya and they had to come and see if it is really as bad as some people  make out?