U.S. citizens: "Fact sheet" on income affidavits

[JTXR]

https://th.usembassy.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/factsheet-income-affidavit.pdf

 

To me, the relevant "fact" is the last one:

"Fact: The U.S. Embassy and Consulate General will work closely with Thai immigration officials during the transition period to minimize any confusion."

I would recommend that as U.S. citizens, you write to 1) the Ambassador, 2) your two Senators and your U.S. House member to press them to ensure that the embassy press Thai immigration to provide clear, official guidance on what will be an acceptable "income certificate" (the wording now found on the Embassy of Thailand, Washington DC website) or acceptable "evidence of income" (the current wording on the Royal Thai Immigration Bureau website).

Bitching and moaning on online forums accomplishes nothing but letting off steam.  The only people who can influence the Thai government to clarify the situation for U.S. citizens is the U.S. government.  And the only way individual citizens can possibly influence the process is through your Congressional representatives.  They are obligated to provide constituent services. 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by JTXR

[glegolo]

you are talking about "american citizens"... have you as an american ever noticed that there are actually more countries in the world outside US borders??? It feels a bit tragic when we are having topics here on Thai-VISA and all of them are talking about expats in general, you are ONLY considering US citizen and dont get a """" about the rest.

 

glegolo

[JLCrab]

Americans can write to or petition American embassy or government officials.

 

Norwegians can write to or petition Norwegian embassy or government officials.

 

Etc. and so on.

[glegolo]

15 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Americans can write to or petition American embassy or government officials.

 

Norwegians can write to or petition Norwegian embassy or government officials.

 

Etc. and so on.

thnks for your response, was just reacting because we are all expats and we all share a common interest so get this dilemma solved for you guys in Australia/UK/USA/Denmark,m because we never know sometime soon we all will be dragged into this mess because of you guys and your affadavits....

 

glegolo

 

[JTXR]

Fair enough, but as someone who has considerable experience dealing with the U.S. government and knows how it works, I was advising U.S. citizens on exactly who they should write to if they actually want to get someone to do something.  Not "the embassy", but the Ambassador specifically.  Not "government officials", but one's two U.S. Senators and single U.S. House of Representatives member.  It's absolutely true that their letters (or emails) will be taken more seriously if they're registered to vote, and even more seriously if they've ever contributed to a political campaign, but that's just the way of the world. 

I don't know who exactly Norwegians or Brits should write to and wouldn't pretend to give them advice. 

[JLCrab]

5 hours ago, JTXR said:

Fair enough, but as someone who has considerable experience dealing with the U.S. government and knows how it works

I am registered as 501c3/NGO in USA and have been involved peripherally in cases right up to the US Supreme Court. All I was saying as that, even when residing in Thailand, one only has any real influence with the representatives from one's own country.

[jmurch]

7 hours ago, glegolo said:

you are talking about "american citizens"... have you as an american ever noticed that there are actually more countries in the world outside US borders??? It feels a bit tragic when we are having topics here on Thai-VISA and all of them are talking about expats in general, you are ONLY considering US citizen and dont get a """" about the rest.

 

glegolo

Apparently you didn't read the title!!!!

[Moonlover]

The British embassy has publicly said that the Thai Immigration have stated that 'income based applications using evidence of Thai bank credits' can be used. And both the British and the US embassies have stated that they will work with Thai Immigration during the transition period to minimize confusion. What more do you want?

 

When someone can come forward and claim that they have been refused an extension by the income method without the embassy letter then you will have due cause to show concern.

 

Until then you're just pointing at the moon and claiming that it's going to fall.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Moonlover

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, Moonlover said:

The British embassy has publicly said that the Thai Immigration have stated that 'income based applications using evidence of Thai bank credits' can be used. And both the British and the US embassies have stated that they will work with Thai Immigration during the transition period to minimize confusion. What more do you want?

 

When someone can come forward and claim that they have been refused an extension by the income method then you might due cause to raise a complaint.

 

Until then you're just pointing at the moon and claiming that it's going to fall.

The BE also stated that Thai immigration has "always "accepted bank credit. Just because the Embassy says it, doesn't make it true. 100s of people have enquired at their local immigration office, including me, and been told point blank that only a embassy letter will be accepted and Thai bank credits will not be accepted.

 

Thats pretty much the problem, the embassies are saying the opposite to Thai immigration. 

 

Until Thai immigration comes forward and says they will accept bank statements, what the embassies are saying are false misleading statements.

 

 

 

 

 

[wwest5829]

8 hours ago, glegolo said:

you are talking about "american citizens"... have you as an american ever noticed that there are actually more countries in the world outside US borders??? It feels a bit tragic when we are having topics here on Thai-VISA and all of them are talking about expats in general, you are ONLY considering US citizen and dont get a """" about the rest.

 

glegolo

Yo! Back off Jack. This post addresses an American government fact sheet. Thus responses rightly deal with American interaction/response to the Kingdom of Thailand Immigration requirements. American concernscare part of that international community you call attention to. It in no way distracts from othe facts issued by other embassies addressing their Expats.

[Moonlover]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The BE also stated that Thai immigration has "always "accepted bank credit. Just because the Embassy says it, doesn't make it true. 100s of people have enquired at their local immigration office, including me, and been told point blank that only a embassy letter will be accepted and Thai bank credits will not be accepted.

 

Thats pretty much the problem, the embassies are saying the opposite to Thai immigration. 

 

Until Thai immigration comes forward and says they will accept bank statements, what the embassies are saying are false misleading statements.

 

 

 

 

 

I say again. 

 

'When someone can come forward and claim that they have been refused an extension by the income method then you might due cause to raise a complaint'.

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Moonlover

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, Moonlover said:

I say again. 

 

 

What part of "we do not accept bank statements" dont you understand. Go to Thai immigration with only bank statements and you wont get an extension.

The first part of getting an extension is checking that you have the acceptable documents as per immigrations list. 

I dont think anyone will be presenting to immigration with documents that are not on the official requirements list and magically expect immigration to accept them.

I may as well turn up with a note from my mum, your logic would indicate that until the say no to notes from mum they are acceptable.

You dont have to wait to be refused an extension, TI have already said they wont accept bank statements

[skatewash]

10 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I say again. 

 

'When someone can come forward and claim that they have been refused an extension by the income method then you might due cause to raise a complaint'.

 

Admittedly, there've been a lot of posts and it's hard to stay on top of them.  But as of now there have been several reports (mostly Danish citizens who of course no longer can get the embassy income letter) who have been rejected for trying to use the income method without an embassy income letter.  There have been many who have enquired at their local immigration offices and have been told that no embassy income letter, no extension of stay using the income method. On the other hand, there has been, to my knowledge, exactly one person (Australian) who successfully received an income-based retirement extension without showing an embassy income letter (Mukdahan Immigration Office).

[skatewash]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

What part of "we do not accept bank statements" dont you understand. Go to Thai immigration with only bank statements and you wont get an extension.

The first part of getting an extension is checking that you have the acceptable documents as per immigrations list. 

I dont think anyone will be presenting to immigration with documents that are not on the official requirements list and magically expect immigration to accept them.

I may as well turn up with a note from my mum, your logic would indicate that until the say no to notes from mum they are acceptable.

You dont have to wait to be refused an extension, TI have already said they wont accept bank statements

One really only has to look at the one group of people who can no longer as of this moment get an embassy income letter, Danish citizens.  When they have gone to the immigration office with proof but not having an embassy income letter they have been told the income method is not open to those without an embassy income letter.  As citizens of the first embassy to actually stop producing the letters (with immediate effect) they would logically be the first group of people to experience this.

[Peterw42]

4 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Admittedly, there've been a lot of posts and it's hard to stay on top of them.  But as of now there have been several reports (mostly Danish citizens who of course no longer can get the embassy income letter) who have been rejected for trying to use the income method without an embassy income letter.  There have been many who have enquired at their local immigration offices and have been told that no embassy income letter, no extension of stay using the income method. On the other hand, there has been, to my knowledge, exactly one person (Australian) who successfully received an income-based retirement extension without showing an embassy income letter (Mukdahan Immigration Office).

I must have missed the successful Australian guy, was that in one of the threads ? Do you have other details, was he able to show pension statement, bank statements etc. 

I have seen a couple of posts where guys have said the same about not needing embassy letter but it turned out they were talking about the 800k method.

[Moonlover]

I read a lot of hearsay. I read no facts.

 

Bring on the evidence.

[skatewash]

11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I must have missed the successful Australian guy, was that in one of the threads ? Do you have other details, was he able to show pension statement, bank statements etc. 

I have seen a couple of posts where guys have said the same about not needing embassy letter but it turned out they were talking about the 800k method.

This is the one I'm referencing.  He is pretty clear about not having the embassy income letter and also not having a bank letter for proving the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank for the seasoning period.  It appears he was allowed to argue that he had an income stream in excess of 65,000 baht per month, just based on other documentation.  So far it's an outlier, but I took it as a positive development that it had at least happened once.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1068418-has-anyone-used-monthly-income-without-the-income-letter/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-13569904

 

[thailand49]

9 hours ago, glegolo said:

thnks for your response, was just reacting because we are all expats and we all share a common interest so get this dilemma solved for you guys in Australia/UK/USA/Denmark,m because we never know sometime soon we all will be dragged into this mess because of you guys and your affadavits....

 

glegolo

 

6

I'm glad you clarified your first remarks because the first seems you got something about Americans based on the manner you put it!

Yes, the concerns of Thai immigration regarding the verification has open a can of worms for everyone and yes we are in the same boat the opinion is pretty sound since as American we have no access to the other Embassy nor your representative so writing to our country representative is the first step, if you have a suggestion about how we can get all the Embassy together to request a clarification I'm all ears! Your first remarks come across you want America to lead the way and when we do down the road we get criticized for it? It sounds hypocritical when you say " we are in this together then say you guys and your affidavits" Did we create this mess because I thought we were in this together?

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by thailand49

[Peterw42]

17 minutes ago, skatewash said:

This is the one I'm referencing.  He is pretty clear about not having the embassy income letter and also not having a bank letter for proving the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank for the seasoning period.  It appears he was allowed to argue that he had an income stream in excess of 65,000 baht per month, just based on other documentation.  So far it's an outlier, but I took it as a positive development that it had at least happened once.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1068418-has-anyone-used-monthly-income-without-the-income-letter/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-13569904

 

Thanks, I read his posts, a little confusing 3 month extension then a 12 month extension, verified Australian bank statements (by who ?), in later posts he is referring to a copy of the 800k requirements that he showed immigration.

 

I hope he is correct but I have a feeling its gone through as an 800k extension.

[robertson468]

The issue is very, very simple.  Embassies are saying you can use Bank Statements, but Immigration is saying no you cannot, you have to use an affidavit from your Embassy to prove your income.  The solution is that everyone should NOW poll up to their local Immigration office with a copy of the words on their website which (to my mind) confirms you can use Bank Statements.  If refused then you should write to your Embassy for support, asking them to put pressure on the Immigration HQ as clearly the word has not been spread/translated down the chain of Command.  I notice that the American Embassy has said if there is a problem, it is the responsibility of the individual to deal with the Immigration Office.  I think this is a complete cope out and abrogation of responsibility to their Citizens, which is singularly uphelpful.  Sadly, typical bureaucratic mindset when issues are a little bit out of the norm!

[skatewash]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Thanks, I read his posts, a little confusing 3 month extension then a 12 month extension, verified Australian bank statements (by who ?), in later posts he is referring to a copy of the 800k requirements that he showed immigration.

 

I hope he is correct but I have a feeling its gone through as an 800k extension.

3

He has started a separate thread where he addresses some of the issues you bring up and offers some clarification.  The reason I don't think it went through as a seasoned 800k in the bank extension is because he didn't have the mandatory bank letter from the Thai bank and he goes on to say that he actually never had an 800,000 baht balance in the account (just enough money transferred to Thai banks to exceed 800,000 baht over the course of the year and documentation of the source of that money via pension statements).

 

The report is a little confusing on a few points.  One he mentions the 90-Day Report that they will sometimes do automatically for you when you renew your retirement extension.  That's neither here nor there regarding the approval of the extension.  The other is that he seemed surprised to get greater than a 12 month extension of stay, perhaps without realizing that you always get a greater than 12-month extension of stay if you apply for your extension before the previous one expires.  The extra days you get are equal to the number of days you applied early.

 

But he seems solid on not having the embassy income letter.  And not having a Thai bank letter that is always required for doing the seasoned 800,000 baht in the bank method.  So I assume he did get an extension under the income method without the embassy income letter.

 

I hope that wasn't just because he might be a handsome man or especially charming person. ????  I have a Thai friend who's not hard to look at who has never bothered to get a driver's license.  As I know she drives all the time I asked if she ever got into trouble for not being properly licensed.  She looked and me and flashed a very becoming smile and said, "nope."

Here's the other thread:
 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Moonlover was going on above about it's not a problem until someone actually gets denied.

 

Of course, that's a fallacious argument, because as probably he and everyone else here should know, the U.S. and British embassies have not yet ceased issuing income letters. So anyone from either of those countries who's applying for an extension now or into December, and perhaps even into the first half of 2019 if the 6 month letter validity continues to be honored, should be able to continue using their income letters.

 

With the exception of the Danes who are impacted NOW, this whole mess is a train wreck that's heading down the tracks for the Americans, Brits and Aussies and probably won't start arriving until sometime into 2019. Barring some clear instruction from Immigration HQ in the meantime, that's when the potential is going to exist for larger populations of folks to be denied.

 

Of course, it's entirely possible Immigration HQ will come out with something between now and then confirming what the embassies have said already -- that deposits into Thai bank accounts will be accepted as proof of required monthly income, in lieu of Embassy income letters for those who no longer have access to them.  But until Immigration confirms some kind of official policy, it's still a potential train wreck heading down the tracks.

 

[ratcatcher]

Since this whole income business covers many topics and countries, can anyone confirm that when having done previouis extensions of stay, changing from the monthly income method B40K vs B65K and switching to a bank deposit method B400K vs B800K is the seasoning period for 2 months or 3 months?

[HHTel]

11 hours ago, glegolo said:

dragged into this mess because of you guys and your affadavits....

 

The British Embassy was the first to announce the cessation of income letters and they have never dealt with affidavits.  An income letter was issued providing you showed evidence of your income.

[HHTel]

38 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

Since this whole income business covers many topics and countries, can anyone confirm that when having done previouis extensions of stay, changing from the monthly income method B40K vs B65K and switching to a bank deposit method B400K vs B800K is the seasoning period for 2 months or 3 months?

It's only 2 months when applying for your first extension.  Switching from one to the other requires 3 months seasoning.

[ubonjoe]

45 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

Since this whole income business covers many topics and countries, can anyone confirm that when having done previouis extensions of stay, changing from the monthly income method B40K vs B65K and switching to a bank deposit method B400K vs B800K is the seasoning period for 2 months or 3 months?

It is is 2 months in the bank for every extension based upon marriage. It is 60 days for the first extension of a 90 day non-o visa entry and then 3 months after that for retirement.

For money being transfered into the country for the income option there is no written number of months that it needs to be shown.

 

[Media1]

3 hours ago, Moonlover said:

The British embassy has publicly said that the Thai Immigration have stated that 'income based applications using evidence of Thai bank credits' can be used. And both the British and the US embassies have stated that they will work with Thai Immigration during the transition period to minimize confusion. What more do you want?

 

When someone can come forward and claim that they have been refused an extension by the income method without the embassy letter then you will have due cause to show concern.

 

Until then you're just pointing at the moon and claiming that it's going to fall.

Yes it's not a huge issue just a game changer by incompetents 

[hobobo]

13 hours ago, JTXR said:

obligated

That's when I burst out laughing!

[Benmart]

15 hours ago, glegolo said:

you are talking about "american citizens"... have you as an american ever noticed that there are actually more countries in the world outside US borders??? It feels a bit tragic when we are having topics here on Thai-VISA and all of them are talking about expats in general, you are ONLY considering US citizen and dont get a """" about the rest.

 

glegolo

He is addressing the Americans and you are free to contact the US officials as you like. Otherwise, the America issue is NOYB.

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

...I hope he is correct but I have a feeling its gone through as an 800k extension.

He had less than THB 60k in his bank account when he applied for his extension.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1069011-proof-of-income/?do=findComment&comment=13570838