Udon Thani 65,000 baht retirement extension rules

[american]

5 hours ago, rott said:

Probably I have missed a bit, but in one year's time if nothing changes will your 65,000 per month give you another extension?

Yes, based on what I was told. 12 x 65,000 = 780,000 income and it can be verified in my Thai bank book.

(800,000 is required if one does the 3 month seasoning, I think. I don't do that.)

I do not know what "transaction code" Thai Immigration may expect to see as the 65,000 is deposited. Or what issues may arise if "multiple" deposits add up to 65,000 for 1 month. Or what happens if, for some reason, a retiree uses 2 different bank accounts to reach the 65,000 total monthly. etc, etc, etc.

   there are going to be many questions to get resolved due to the income affadavids being eliminated.

 

AMERICAN

[Wake Up]

On 11/18/2018 at 7:44 AM, Longcut said:

Please don't take this personally. I salute you for this report and also thank you. But, I think the IO was being moronic. What difference can it possibly make what the monthly total deposit is if it averages out come next year when you reapply? It is this reasoning here that so infuriates me. 

 I know I am venting and I apologise. 

I was told the same information at CW Bangkok back in October so I think the OP post is accurate for udon thani and Bangkok. 65,000 deposited into a Thai bank account every month or 800 k in the Thai bank for three months prior to requesting extension of stay and the income letters will be accepted for 6 months from the date they were signed.  

[american]

10 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

If they accept a one off transfer of 780k then that removes the 800k seasoning requirement. why put 800 in the bank for 90 days when you can put 780 in the bank the day before your extension.

There is some misunderstanding here, (if you are referring to my opening post) about a 780,000 transfer. In my opening post, I never mentioned anything about a one off transfer of 780k.  Did someone ele say that? I said the IO told me I would need 12 months of deposits into my Thai bank account showing a monthly minimum of 65,000 baht.  12 x 65,000 = 780,000 baht.  My yearly bank book deposits would have posed a problem, because I had not met a minimum monthly deposit of 65,000.  My total for the year would have been 780,000+, BUT some months I deposited less than 65,000. My posting went into more details.

  I apologize if your posting was referring to someone else and you weren't referring to my post. I don't want my post to be misunderstood or misinterpreted. i just did my best to explain what the IO told me regrading my process of trying to meet the retirement extension requirements, based solely (for me) on meeting the 65,000 monthly income requirement. 

 

AMERICAN

[american]

16 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

I was told the same information at CW Bangkok back in October so I think the OP post is accurate for udon thani and Bangkok. 65,000 deposited into a Thai bank account every month or 800 k in the Thai bank for three months prior to requesting extension of stay and the income letters will be accepted for 6 months from the date they were signed.  

Bravo to Wake up. His reply is so succinct and right to the point. I wish I had been able to be as brief in my posting.

 

AMERICAN

[gk10002000]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, Longcut said:

Please don't take this personally. I salute you for this report and also thank you. But, I think the IO was being moronic. What difference can it possibly make what the monthly total deposit is if it averages out come next year when you reapply? It is this reasoning here that so infuriates me. 

 I know I am venting and I apologise. 

I agree it would be an extra pain in the butt to have to transfer in any money regularly.  Such things do not come without cost.  Me, I hate paperwork.  I planned starting next year to bring in a pile of USD when I arrive and return home twice a year or even three times a year. Then use ATM now and then for a month or so.  I had no intention of setting up any sort of regular transfer.  My retirement money comes mostly from my passive investments and stock dividends and bond interest, some of which gets paid quarterly.  I have plenty of income.  if the Thai authorities really do end up expecting a monthly transfer in, well, that sucks

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, Ebumbu said:

You put your 65 in, and take your 65 out. You put your 65 in, and you shake it all about. Do the hokey pokey and extend another year. That's what it's all about! 

 

5 hours ago, ddotmark said:

Crazy as it sounds...that's exactly how this 65,000 baht/month deposit of funds requirement could be addressed.

Which is why many think it is unlikely - and why foreign-transfers-in is a more probable requirement. 

 

1 hour ago, american said:

The paper printout I receive from the bank shows the cash was drawn out of my American bank along with the last 3's of my American debit card and the date is also printed. I will deposit that EXACT same amount of converted cash into my Thai bank

1 hour ago, american said:

sometimes the ink fades on the "cash advnce"paper printouts and becomes illegible, so I plan to photo each paper slip for backup.

You are expecting an IO will thumb through multiple receipts, and/or believe your copy of them is genuine.  This might work.  But I think they a better-bet is a Thai bank-statement showing foreign-transfers on that statement, stamped by the bank-officer.  Remember, the goal is to replace a "one document" embassy letter (quick and easy to read), as closely as possible.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, american said:

Yes, based on what I was told. 12 x 65,000 = 780,000 income and it can be verified in my Thai bank book.

(800,000 is required if one does the 3 month seasoning, I think. I don't do that.)

I do not know what "transaction code" Thai Immigration may expect to see as the 65,000 is deposited.

Probably "FTT" for Bangkok Bank - may differ at other banks. 

1 hour ago, american said:

Or what issues may arise if "multiple" deposits add up to 65,000 for 1 month. Or what happens if, for some reason, a retiree uses 2 different bank accounts to reach the 65,000 total monthly. etc, etc, etc.

Don't do this.  Similar with those receiving pensions weekly or quarterly vs monthly.   Use an "accumulator" / "buffer" account in your home-country to keep the funds, then one xfer every month into one Thai account for enough over the minimum to handle any flux in exchange-rates, fees, etc.

 

1 hour ago, american said:

   there are going to be many questions to get resolved due to the income affadavids being eliminated.

True - this will make for interesting reading here.  But the best bet is to try not to be one of those who is "testing the limits" of what a particular IO at a particular office is willing to accept. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

As some one else pointed out; 65k a month before extension only shows past expenditure and not money for the future, like the 800k method.

[jimn]

1 hour ago, american said:

Yes, based on what I was told. 12 x 65,000 = 780,000 income and it can be verified in my Thai bank book.

(800,000 is required if one does the 3 month seasoning, I think. I don't do that.)

I do not know what "transaction code" Thai Immigration may expect to see as the 65,000 is deposited. Or what issues may arise if "multiple" deposits add up to 65,000 for 1 month. Or what happens if, for some reason, a retiree uses 2 different bank accounts to reach the 65,000 total monthly. etc, etc, etc.

   there are going to be many questions to get resolved due to the income affadavids being eliminated.

 

AMERICAN

OP you and a couple of other posters truely believe that you are sorted for the next year by putting 65k per month for 12 months into a Thai Bank account. Whilst that may turn out to be the case, there has been no official statement on what they will expect people to produce. As I have stated many times before it is all speculation. At this time income of 65k per month has to be proved via an embassy letter. I have only heard of one case where immigration accepted proof of income via a bank book has been accepted. So stop congratulating yourselves on what you have been told by individual officers and wait for the updated advice from Thai Immigration.

[american]

UPDATE FROM AMERICAN:

 

when i discussed my upcoming retirement extension, based on 65,000 monthly income, at Udon Thani immigration, I ws told I could apply 30 days early for my retirement extension. I asked if I could apply earlier and was told no.  I have heard some office use 30 days early while other Immigration Offices allow up to 45 days early. 

   I forgot to mention this in my original post.  I don't know if 45 days is allowed in some offices. Again, i am just posting what i was told by the Udon Thani Immigration officer.  

[Wake Up]

11 minutes ago, jimn said:

OP you and a couple of other posters truely believe that you are sorted for the next year by putting 65k per month for 12 months into a Thai Bank account. Whilst that may turn out to be the case, there has been no official statement on what they will expect people to produce. As I have stated many times before it is all speculation. At this time income of 65k per month has to be proved via an embassy letter. I have only heard of one case where immigration accepted proof of income via a bank book has been accepted. So stop congratulating yourselves on what you have been told by individual officers and wait for the updated advice from Thai Immigration.

I think it is good to share information and I hope you are correct that it will be 100 percent clear in writing in the future. But these are statements made to me by the supervisor of CW in a person to person conference in October so that is why I reported it. By no means am I congratulating myself or anyone. I know this is stressful for some and just trying to communicate with those that get extensions in CW on what I was told by a person who was senior and knowledgeable and gave me specifics on what to do for an extension next year. 

[sumrit]

9 hours ago, JackThompson said:

How hard would it be to manufacture a fake T/W Transaction slip in photoshop?  I'm not a photoshop-user, but suspect it would not be very difficult.  Absent any authority's stamp on a document, I don't think it would have much weight with immigration - in contrast to a bank-letter, showing transfers clearly marked as foreign, with the bank's stamp and bank-officer's signature.

The Transferwise transaction shows all the transfer info, including the date of transfer, exchange rate and the amount transferred, down to the last satang. My Thai bank account shows the corresponding deposit on the relevant date, right down to the same last satang. 

 

It would be pointless 'photoshopping' a Tansferwise transaction if it didn't correspond to a Deposit in your Thai Bank account.

[rodknock]

what happens if you do not use your Thai. bank book.

i have not used mine since 1012. i do internet transfers to my account and do my banking by internet.

would be a lot of pages if i were to copy my statements and immigration would probably be confused.

[JackThompson]

8 minutes ago, rodknock said:

what happens if you do not use your Thai. bank book.

i have not used mine since 1012. i do internet transfers to my account and do my banking by internet.

would be a lot of pages if i were to copy my statements and immigration would probably be confused.

Your Thai bank will issue a letter upon-request showing all deposits for a year.  This will be stamped and signed by a bank-officer.

 

5 minutes ago, sumrit said:

The Transferwise transaction shows all the transfer info, including the date of transfer, exchange rate and the amount transferred, down to the last satang. My Thai bank account shows the corresponding deposit on the relevant date, right down to the same last satang. 

 

It would be pointless 'photoshopping' a Tansferwise transaction if it didn't correspond to a Deposit in your Thai Bank account.

Except that the deposit into your Thai bank-account could have come from your other Thai bank account (illegal-work, money sent back-and-forth), and the transferwise-doc (or cash-advance receipt copies, or etc) created/modified to duplicate this activity.

 

Please understand - I am not suggesting any dishonest intent on your part at all.  I am only looking at this from 2 angles:  1) Simplicity of immigration processing (one easy to read official doc), and 2) What those w/o the money will do (as sure as Newton's 3rd Law).

[gk10002000]

57 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

As some one else pointed out; 65k a month before extension only shows past expenditure and not money for the future, like the 800k method.

Or like showing a proper documented pension, a proper USA Social security benefit, etc.   I understand the Thais may not understand or have worked out  a way to verify such things, but there must be some middle ground reached between the Thais and foreign embassies

[onera1961]

9 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

All my transfers into the country have the FTT (foreign telex transfer) code in my bank book and on internet banking they are shown as "international transfer".

I rechecked all my transfer this year through transferwise into Bangkok Bank. All of them have FTT code except four transfers marked as CMB and SCB (I guess those are local transfer from CMB and SCB banks may be). I have a capital one and an PNC business accounts. I have never tried to link those two accounts to Bangkok Bank (I have tried all my personal accounts but Bangkok bank rejected all trial deposits because they are not in iACH format). Also hoping that iACH will become widely available in the US for personal banking in near future.

[onera1961]

10 hours ago, JackThompson said:

In photoshop, one would use one's domestic xferrs from one Thai account to the other for reference, and paste those values into your fake transferwise document, to make the domestic transfers appear to be foreign.  Then just move the money back and forth.  The same could be done internationally, of course, but at greater expense and trouble.

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think Transferwise does not transfer Thai currency and Transfer must be between two different currencies.  Also, if 800K does not require a foreign transfer, why does a monthly 65K will require FTT? They want a simple approach where they can quickly scan the book and bank letter for deposits only

Edited November 19, 2018 by onera1961

[Maestro]

Removed on abusive post and one incomprehensible post and the reply to the latter.

[Issanjohn]

7 hours ago, american said:

Thank you for your kind reply. Our plans of action seem very similiar. I plan to use my American debit card at my Thai bank and receive a "cash advance" monthly of a minimum of 65,000 baht. The paper printout I receive from the bank shows the cash was drawn out of my American bank along with the last 3's of my American debit card and the date is also printed. I will deposit that EXACT same amount of converted cash into my Thai bank. I'll meet the monthly minimum 65,000 and my 12 month total will meet Thai requirements. My bank book and paper "cash advances"printout will meet the Thai rules. sometimes the ink fades on the "cash advnce"paper printouts and becomes illegible, so I plan to photo each paper slip for backup. I think, so far, Based on current rules, I'm covered. And you seem to have thought this through also. 

 all retirees need to try and plan ahead and try to stay abreast of the coming rules. with income affdavids disappearing, Thai rules will also.  for a while, it's going to probably be a bumpy ride, more for some than others. Good luck to uss all.

  Again. thank for your compliments on my posting. it' alsways nice to be appreciated.

 

American

Yes I definitely think we’ll both be covered by this plan, and yes I’ve really thought it through as well as you seemed to have and I’ve found as much official guidance on the issue as possible through the embassy and my local immigration office.  According to both the embassy and my local immigration office this is a smart plan.  

 

I also read what you said about making the transfer with your debit card at the Thai bank.  You said “I plan to use my American debit card at my Thai bank and receive a "cash advance" monthly of a minimum of 65,000 baht. The paper printout I receive from the bank shows the cash was drawn out of my American bank along with the last 3's of my American debit card and the date is also printed. I will deposit that EXACT same amount of converted cash into my Thai bank.”

 

I currently plan on manually calling my bank in the states every month and having them manually transfer half my monthly pension payments or at least the minimum monthly income requirement to my Thai bank, and I was thinking that I had to do it that way so it shows up on the Thai bank statements as coming from my US bank to my Thai bank account.  But if what you said about using the American debit card to transfer the funds at the Thai bank every month actually works and leaves the proper paper trail that I need for immigration then I just might do mine like that as well because that way I wouldn’t have to pay the monthly international bank transfer fee of I believe $20 dollars a month for international transfers.  So that might be a really good method as well I’ll see if it works better than calling the bank every month to transfer the funds.  

 

Although don't withdraw 65K cash from your American debit card and just manually transfer it or immigration might think that you’re working here if they see manual cash deposits every month.  Either call the American bank and have them transfer the funds or do like you said and use your American debit card at the Thai bank and advance the funds into the account in fact now I might do the same thing but I’m gonna see which way works better first.  As long as we have a paper trail showing at least the minimum monthly income requirement coming from the United States or anyone else’s home country going into a Thai bank account actually on a Thai bank statement to show immigration after the income affidavits eventually go away completely then we should be covered for income verification according to my local immigration office and apparently according to yours as well so I think that’s probably the answer.  

 

In the meantime our income affidavits will still be accepted for six months after the date of completion according to my local immigration office and apparently according to yours as well.  Anyway I totally agree that this sounds like a very rational plan for after the end of the income affidavits in mid next year.  I did definitely appreciate your idea because it’s exactly the same thing that I’m planning and have been saying.  Good luck.  

[Issanjohn]

12 hours ago, Moonlover said:

From Immigration's point of view, a good argument in favour of monthly income evidence goes like this.

 

It is possible to borrow 800/400k for 2 or 3 months, (think agencies) but it's very difficult to borrow a continuous stream of 65/40k every month.

Borrow LoL ???? My monthly income is more than double both amounts per month thanks to my monthly pension payments I don’t borrow anything lol ????.  I don’t remember if you’re the same person I spoke to earlier who was deliberately putting out misinformation I’m sorry if you’re not that same person but still you ought to do a bit more research.  

 

I fall within Thai immigration laws for my extension. If you don’t fall with Thai immigration laws then you might want to leave the country and get a whole new visa  based on your own personal situation not based on everyone else’s situation, or maybe you should be rethinking whether or not you should even be living here.  

 

I’m not sure what you’re getting at as far as “borrowing money”.  If you’re having to borrow money from people to qualify for your extension then I recommend that you seek financial counseling and maybe you should consider just going home.  I don’t have to borrow from anyone for my extensions I’m retired.  Honestly I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about here no offense.  You sound like that same guy from yesterday but I don’t recall.  I don’t think I’ll be reading or replying to you anymore I prefer to chat with more intelligent people no offense maybe I’m missing something here I don’t know.  You’re post is just confusing but if you’re saying what it looks like you probably need to rethink your situation.  If you’re living here you shouldn’t have to be “borrowing” money for your extensions seriously.  

[fforest1]

If they might want to see 65,000 from overseas every month why were they ok with the income letter from the embassy for the last 18 years? Yes I did say 18 years......And why are they still ok with the income letter from all embassies except 4? Yes I did say ALL other embassies..

And why was income from any source ok?....There must be a lot more than a few farang that get income from property rental in Thailand and Thai stocks......Not accepting income from Thailand would be telling farangs to never invest in Thailand.....

 

So I not buying the 65,000 has to come from overseas....There is no history to support this at all..And it would scare farangs away from investing in Thailand....

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by fforest1

[JLCrab]

8 hours ago, american said:

I plan to use my American debit card at my Thai bank and receive a "cash advance" monthly of a minimum of 65,000 baht. The paper printout I receive from the bank shows the cash was drawn out of my American bank along with the last 3's of my American debit card and the date is also printed. I will deposit that EXACT same amount of converted cash into my Thai bank. I'll meet the monthly minimum 65,000 and my 12 month total will meet Thai requirements. My bank book and paper "cash advances"printout will meet the Thai rules. sometimes the ink fades on the "cash advnce"paper printouts and becomes illegible, so I plan to photo each paper slip for backup.

And you are anticipating there will then be one of these on every desk at your favorite IMM spot:

 

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, rodknock said:

what happens if you do not use your Thai. bank book.

i have not used mine since 1012. i do internet transfers to my account and do my banking by internet.

would be a lot of pages if i were to copy my statements and immigration would probably be confused.

Open another account at the same bank and use it solely for your transfers in. Then transfer it to your other account when it arrives or as needed. 

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, onera1961 said:

I am not 100% sure, but I think Transferwise does not transfer Thai currency and Transfer must be between two different currencies.  Also, if 800K does not require a foreign transfer, why does a monthly 65K will require FTT?

The rules for extensions don't require proving a foreign-source of the income - only for a "non-o stamp" (if one enters with a tourist-entry, to start the process).  The reason it might be required in the future for whatever new income-method they use, is because it would be more effort to recycle the same money.

 

It has been noted that this would exclude legal "non-work" income made from within Thailand, but if this is accepted as part of the monthly-total, perhaps that will be settled with a Thai tax-return (with some sort of validation stamp on it?) for the Thai portion of the income.

 

8 hours ago, onera1961 said:

They want a simple approach where they can quickly scan the book and bank letter for deposits only

Yes, though I think the income-proof will all be on a letter.  The banks (BKB, anyway) have reduced how much the put on your bank-book when you update, to the point of making it nearly useless.  For those of us in the sticks, a branch or working passbook-update machine is often not close by.

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, rodknock said:

what happens if you do not use your Thai. bank book.

i have not used mine since 1012. i do internet transfers to my account and do my banking by internet.

would be a lot of pages if i were to copy my statements and immigration would probably be confused.

Probably the same as what happens now. I use the combination method and like you use online banking so only have consolidated deposits in the bank book.

When assessing the amount the IOs are not interested in the bank book, their focus is on the stamped and signed statement from the bank.

[pastprime]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Open another account at the same bank and use it solely for your transfers in. Then transfer it to your other account when it arrives or as needed. 

Thanks ubonjoe!  exactly what i suggested few days ago ,but got it removed      even better to do it between direct debits   in and out within 48 hours   same 65000 doing the rounds   add a few more baht  for any charges later

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, pastprime said:

Thanks ubonjoe!  exactly what i suggested few days ago ,but got it removed      even better to do it between direct debits   in and out within 48 hours   same 65000 doing the rounds   add a few more baht  for any charges later

That is not what I was suggesting in my post.

I was stating a way to have a bank book and/or a printed out statement that only shows your transfers from abroad and one or two transfers for each one.

[Retfed50]

I was told basically the same at Khon Kaen Immigration yesterday. They want to see at least 65,000 per month transfered to your Thai bank account from outside of Thailand. No Thai bank to Thai bank transfers and no large lump sum deposits. They also told me that there were ongoing talks between Thai Immigration and the various embassies involved to see how to handle the income verification process.

[pastprime]

48 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not what I was suggesting in my post.

I was stating a way to have a bank book and/or a printed out statement that only shows your transfers from abroad and one or two transfers for each one.

This will build to a figure I will not use.  A method  DD back from Thailand to home bank/tranferwise   I will not use large bank deposit in Thai bank

[DrJack54]

I have always wondered why people have monthly overseas transfers. I understand for some, there is no other option, with pensions and such. I would love to know difference in exchange rate via banking system and just having cash and exchange in Thailand. In my experience its about 1baht per 1aud. I realize this topic is about proof of income for extension. I'm just pointing out that this method is very narrow. We pretty much all have a whinge about rules here, me included, but what is point of this income thing. If there was none would we see huge surge in dead beat farang sleeping on the streets. The vast majority of farang living here are abiding but countries laws, spend good money that comes from "home country" etc etc. Personally, I just stuck + 800k in a Thai bank years ago and don't use it. I love the zero %. Some people arent in position to do that but still live here and in many cases support themselves and Thai. I think they are barking up wrong tree with income rules. I could understand other requirements, such as compulsory health cover. Whoops did I just give them other idea. Damn