UK Pensions (2018)

[evadgib]

11 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

Just reading this , if you renew your passport at the British Embassy ,do they inform the pension service ?

1. You can't &

2. No, current data protection legislation doesn't allow cross-pollination.

[alanrchase]

On 4/13/2019 at 11:10 AM, Chivas said:

Yep I'd go along with that Pilotman. Bottom line is our/your government know where you are (country) 24/7 these guys who worry about cookies etc etc are just in dreamland.

As an example and take this in. I returned from Thailand on Oman via Muscat arriving T4 last month. By the book as always.  Since I've had the current passport the E gates have only worked once.  As per normal over to manual check.

Smile as always. Most time its a scan and thank you Sir. Not this time, Where have you flown from Sir (very polite) to which I respond Thailand via Muscat on Oman.

She clearly looking at the screen. Now I'm British through and through but born in Germany (dad in forces) and I do have a slight German look I do accept especially on Passport photo......

 

Looking at me again she says "Wheres Nordsee Clinic" am looking at her completely blank until realisation dawns to which I reply with a big laugh thats the hospital I was born in on the Island of Sylt in West Germany

 

Passport back to me with big smile.  Now no way on earth did Nordsee Clinic every come up on any application to anything in my life !  Birthplace of course Sylt but not the clinic !!

Walking to carousel I'm thinking how the hell is that on file !!

 

You better believe what information is held on you lol !!

I was also born on Sylt and Nordsee Clinic is on the birth certificate. No mystery as to how they know that.

[crazykopite]

When you make the claim so if you claim today it’s the latest increase however should you then go to a country where the pension is not frozen you can claim the difference my wife goes back to the U.K. each year for a month before she goes she contacts the pension department giving them the dates and gets the current rate for that month . I don’t think a lot of people with frozen pensions are aware of this.

[bkk_mike]

On 4/13/2019 at 7:18 AM, solo46 said:

Up to you,everybody is in the same boat,....can guess the ones that are not,dire warnings pour forth,there is comfort to be had in a frozen land,for the few      For an estimated 55 thousand UK ex pats here in Thailand with a figure of only 5 thousand pensioners declared,tells a story    anyway they DWP cannot do a damned thing..its says so DWP rules

Hardly surprising. I'd imagine there are a lot of the 50K difference who are people doing what I intend to do... - Winters in Thailand, Summers in the UK. That should keep me UK resident for pension purposes and I avoid the worst of the rainy season, while also avoiding British winters.

[Burma Bill]

Out of interest, how many of the UK ex-pats receiving State Pension get their "Winter Fuel Allowance" whilst living in Thailand??

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, evadgib said:

No, current data protection legislation doesn't allow cross-pollination.

So presumably this means that "the Crown" (encompassing HMG departments and agencies including the Embassy, HMPO and DWP) is no longer regarded in law as an indivisible whole?

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, OJAS said:

So presumably this means that "the Crown" (encompassing HMG departments and agencies including the Embassy, HMPO and DWP) is no longer regarded in law as an indivisible whole?

I'm not aware that they ever have been for the purposes of this thread. If they were they wouldn't have stopped producing 'pension letters' to give one classic & Thailand-related example.

HTH

[Rod the Sod]

On 4/13/2019 at 9:44 AM, Pilotman said:

It is only frozen as you put it, if you are no longer normally resident in the UK. Beware thinking that you are 'normally resident' in Thailand, you are not, at least not unless you do gain that status here, or become a Citizen. .  Any extension of stay here is merely a temporary permission to stay in Thailand for a period of 12 months, it is not a permanent residency.  That being so, if you tell the UK authorities that you are now not resident in the UK, but normally resident in Thailand, you are doing yourself a massive disservice.  Others will no doubt tell you that this is against the spirit and actuality of the law. As far as I know, this has not been tested in the UK Counts. My advice would be to maintain a UK address, maintain your place on the Electoral Roll, keep your UK bank, return to the UK every now and again, but no less than once every two extensions of stay (to maintain residency)  and come to Asia on an extended holiday.  

The only problem with the advice you give at the end, irrespective of how many days you spend in the UK, doing all of those things means you can be sucked back into the UK tax system. Swings and roundabouts! The only way to be sure that you leave the Tax Man with the message that you are not resident anymore, or have no inclination to be resident any more and therefore pay no UK tax , is to  not do the things you suggest plus more i.e. remove yourself even from Doctors lists, Dentists Lists etc. If they think it is your intention to keep connections and maybe you have not really really left and still see it as your base etc.) there is case law that shows you will be sucked back in, and back taxed for all the years you didn't pay tax. Hopefully it wont happen, but it has and does happen, and the tax bill is likely to be a tad more than the loss of pension. If you pay UK tax as a non-resident, well up to you.

[Pilotman]

2 minutes ago, Rod the Sod said:

The only problem with the advice you give at the end, irrespective of how many days you spend in the UK, doing all of those things means you can be sucked back into the UK tax system. Swings and roundabouts! The only way to be sure that you leave the Tax Man with the message that you are not resident anymore, or have no inclination to be resident any more and therefore pay no UK tax , is to  not do the things you suggest plus more i.e. remove yourself even from Doctors lists, Dentists Lists etc. If they think it is your intention to keep connections and maybe you have not really really left and still see it as your base etc.) there is case law that shows you will be sucked back in, and back taxed for all the years you didn't pay tax. Hopefully it wont happen, but it has and does happen, and the tax bill is likely to be a tad more than the loss of pension. If you pay UK tax as a non-resident, well up to you.

Unfortunately, all of my income is UK based and I submit a tax self assessment return each year, so I'm done for anyway. 

[alanrchase]

1. You can't &
2. No, current data protection legislation doesn't allow cross-pollination.

From the DWP website it suggests they can and do share information with other government departments.

How DWP shares information about you

DWP may share information with and get it from other organisations such as:

other government departmentslocal authoritiessocial security organisations in other countriesemployers and potential employerssocial landlordsprivate-sector bodies, such as banks and organisations that may lend you moneycharitable and welfare orga

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Griffo63]

On the occasions you return to the UK your pension reverts to the ‘proper’ rate. All you need to do is advise the Pensions Office of the dates (in advance) and it happens automatically. Notifications can be made over the  phone and in my experience there is no checking process 

[theoldgit]

On 4/13/2019 at 11:27 AM, Chivas said:

Lol dear oh dear The UK has no outwards passport control !!

The minute the passport is scanned at check in and the minute the passenger manifest is finalised you're updated on the database

You're correct that there are no embarkation controls so, yes, passports aren't stamped when leaving the country.

However following an uproar some years ago when HMG admitted they don't know how many people left the country the Home Office introduced a scheme where carriers, airlines, ferries and Eurostar, collated the data of all those leaving the country and passed it on to the UKBA where it's recorded by the e-borders system.

Whilst this data is primarily used to record foreign nationals entering and leaving the country, and to check for overstays, it's also used to produce the nett migration figures. I'm aware that the DWP were interested in tapping into this information, but whether that actually got off the ground , I don't know.

 

[Snow Leopard]

On 4/13/2019 at 6:44 AM, Pilotman said:

It is only frozen as you put it, if you are no longer normally resident in the UK. Beware thinking that you are 'normally resident' in Thailand, you are not, at least not unless you do gain that status here, or become a Citizen. .  Any extension of stay here is merely a temporary permission to stay in Thailand for a period of 12 months, it is not a permanent residency.  That being so, if you tell the UK authorities that you are now not resident in the UK, but normally resident in Thailand, you are doing yourself a massive disservice.  Others will no doubt tell you that this is against the spirit and actuality of the law. As far as I know, this has not been tested in the UK Counts. My advice would be to maintain a UK address, maintain your place on the Electoral Roll, keep your UK bank, return to the UK every now and again, but no less than once every two extensions of stay (to maintain residency)  and come to Asia on an extended holiday.  

Well said. That is my plan 100%

[cleopatra2]

14 hours ago, evadgib said:

1. You can't &

2. No, current data protection legislation doesn't allow cross-pollination.

For law enforcement purposes , competent authorities can jointly process data, see DPA 2018

[evadgib]

51 minutes ago, alanrchase said:

From the DWP website it suggests they can and do share information with other government departments.

How DWP shares information about you

DWP may share information with and get it from other organisations such as:

other government departmentslocal authoritiessocial security organisations in other countriesemployers and potential employerssocial landlordsprivate-sector bodies, such as banks and organisations that may lend you moneycharitable and welfare orga

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Their clear-as-mud gobbledegook only suggests they MAY. Under DPA 98 they were not able to do so. From what i have seen of it's replacement (GDPR) I suspect it it even less likely but this could all change at some time in the future.

 

Two links of interest (which should be carefully studied by interested parties)  :

Information Commissioners Office

The Investigatory Powers Tribunal

HTH

Edited April 15, 2019 by evadgib

[sniggie]

14 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Hi Sniggie..... Could you go into more detail on how you originally applied.

 

Thanks. Roadrunner.

Sorry, not really. When I retired in November 2010 I had a state pension and two occupational pensions to sort out. I got it all sorted out in the month before I came out to Thailand. It all went smoothly as I remember but the actual process I can no longer recall at this distance in time. 

[evadgib]

18 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

For law enforcement purposes , competent authorities can jointly process data, see DPA 2018

No one is suggesting otherwise.

[cleopatra2]

22 minutes ago, evadgib said:

No one is suggesting otherwise.

I took the term 'cross pollination ' , as meaning data sharing

[denby45]

On 4/13/2019 at 1:18 PM, solo46 said:

Up to you,everybody is in the same boat,....can guess the ones that are not,dire warnings pour forth,there is comfort to be had in a frozen land,for the few      For an estimated 55 thousand UK ex pats here in Thailand with a figure of only 5 thousand pensioners declared,tells a story    anyway they DWP cannot do a damned thing..its says so DWP rules

What's with the biblical chat is Biblish your first language with English being a second language for you??

 

 

Den

[evadgib]

3 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

I took the term 'cross pollination ' , as meaning data sharing

& for the purpose of this thread I took 'Law Enforcement' to mean hardened criminals.

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, denby45 said:

What's with the biblical chat is Biblish your first language with English being a second language for you??

 

 

Den

The banned Troll 'loppylugs' blew his own cover (in this guise) within minutes of signing up.

HTH

Edited April 15, 2019 by evadgib

[cleopatra2]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

& for the purpose of this thread I took 'Law Enforcement' to mean hardened criminals.

I was sourcing the relevent UK legislation.

Competent Authority includes government departments, thus would fall into the remit of Law enforcement.

 

 

[evadgib]

1 minute ago, cleopatra2 said:

I was sourcing the relevent UK legislation.

Competent Authority includes government departments, thus would fall into the remit of Law enforcement.

Understood, but unless things have changed very recently they will not have the manpower, resources or interest to bother pursuing pensioners accessing something they have arguably paid for. 

[denby45]

22 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Understood, but unless things have changed very recently they will not have the manpower, resources or interest to bother pursuing pensioners accessing something they have arguably paid for. 

I agree it is going to be very difficult for them bearing in mind the concentration of effort is trying to identify the people who are claiming Non Residence to avoiding paying tax rather than the other way around where people are remaining resident when they are actually not. The Non Residency test was introduced mainly for the purpose of tax dodgers. Pensioners claiming a few quid a week extra (at the beginning) are low on their list of duties.

 

 

Den

[sniggie]

26 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Understood, but unless things have changed very recently they will not have the manpower, resources or interest to bother pursuing pensioners accessing something they have arguably paid for. 

My thoughts entirely. This question probably comes very low on the long list of priorities.

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Understood, but unless things have changed very recently they will not have the manpower, resources or interest to bother pursuing pensioners accessing something they have arguably paid for. 

Indeed, it does strike me as tantamount to cracking a nut with a sledgehammer for DWP to instigate extradition proceedings against suspected "miscreants" to enable them to face the music in the UK, in view of the paltry amounts involved. In any event, I gather that they deal with this issue in practice merely by abating pension payments until differences between frozen and current rates have been fully recovered.

Edited April 15, 2019 by OJAS

[JASON THAI]

So what is the answer to my OP do you get the current rate of state pension when you claim or do you get the rate of state pension when you came to live in Thailand I am not looking to lie to the UK government to get yearly increases just want to know what rates people got when they claimed whilst living in Thailand & informing the UK that they had been living in Thailand.

[Chongalulu]

On 4/13/2019 at 1:03 PM, JASON THAI said:

So I am more confused now, if you are out of the UK more than 180 days (6 months) you lose your UK status & become a NON UK Resident from my understanding, but what rate would you get your Pension paid at the rate when you became a NON UK Resident or the rate of the current State pension for the year you make the claim without any further yearly increase ? 

 

Thanks

 

I can’t read all the comments because of the mindless (drunken?) bickering and ignorance but I have only last week claimed my state pension almost 2 years after reaching state pension age (65). I did this over the phone which was quick and easy (10-15 minutes)and I highly recommend this method. I had previously thought that the rate I would get would be at the rate when I claimed (hence wanting to claim from April 6 after latest increase) . However I was clearly told that it is frozen from the later of either the date you reach state pension age (65 in my case) or when you emigrated. I was permitted however to backdate my claim for 1 year from the date of your call/claimand a week later received £8700 into my bank account. For every year you defer your pension you do get an increase (pro rata) of 5.8% per annum based on the rate you would have got when you reached 65. It’s not really worth deferring given that it takes about 19 years to recoup the amount in those increased payments. You are classified as non resident if you spend 183 days out of the uk per annum. However during the time you spend in the U.K. (say 2/3 months holiday) you will get the current rate for that time but it will revert to the previous frozen rate when you return. 

Hope these actual facts help.

 

[sandyf]

7 minutes ago, JASON THAI said:

So what is the answer to my OP do you get the current rate of state pension when you claim or do you get the rate of state pension when you came to live in Thailand I am not looking to lie to the UK government to get yearly increases just want to know what rates people got when they claimed whilst living in Thailand & informing the UK that they had been living in Thailand.

When you claim your pension you will get the same rate as anyone else, and the amount would depend on your contribution history. As a "frozen" pension that amount would just remain the same. In the first couple of years there is not a great deal of difference but it does mount up. I think it was after 4 years that I started claiming the extra for UK visits. The brexit effect has been a lot more detrimental than the loss of annual increases.

[maxcorrigan]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

Indeed, it does strike me as tantamount to cracking a nut with a sledgehammer for DWP to instigate extradition proceedings against suspected "miscreants" to enable them to face the music in the UK, in view of the paltry amounts involved. In any event, I gather that they deal with this issue in practice merely by abating pension payments until differences between frozen and current rates have been fully recovered.

In my case i did not tell them i was living in Thailand, about 10 months later my UK pension stopped dead, i contacted them via post as to to why this had happened, they said letters sent my old address had been returned, and to give my new address which i did, giving my Thai address, (as i had no other) they were very civil, i was not fined or asked to return the money overpaid, just my weekly pension dropped backed to where it was before i moved to Thailand since an yearly increase had happened in the above mentioned, i think it's very unfair to not get the paltry annual increase, which if you lived in Singapore you get, but not in Thailand!