UK PM May's government loses contempt vote over Brexit legal advice

[7by7]

7 hours ago, rixalex said:

This all started with a comment in a post you made about those who voted leave in order to STOP immigration. There was no caveat added to that post that you were talking about a tiny minority of leavers. Therefore the impression that was given was that this was a common goal for your average leaver. To repeat, I think this is nonsense.

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Go back and read what I actually said.

 

I said that Norway plus would mean maintaining freedom of movement, which would upset those who voted leave to stop immigration from the EU.

 

I DID NOT SAY all leavers.

 

I DID NOT SAY those leavers who want controlled immigration from the EU.

 

Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I posted in some pathetic attempt to score cheap debating points, or are you too stupid to know the difference between what I said and what you claim I said?

 

BTW, I don't think that you are stupid.

 

 

[tebee]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

Please answer the question.

 

So who will stop the young people from going to the the EU?

 

The UK or the EU?

 

...

Neither, it's down to the individual country.

 

Visiting should be OK, but retirees who want to overwinter in Spain will now only be able to get the normal 3 months in any 6 visa.

 

If you want to go find work in an EU country you can't just go there, you need to arrange the job then apply for a work permit before you can start work - and what if those jobs require you to earn £31,000 per year like in the UK ? Many people will be excluded.

 

Many young people are going to be excedingly pised off by brexit  - lets see which ever party introduces it get re-elected in 10-20 years time.

[rixalex]

 
Go back and read what I actually said.
 
I said that Norway plus would mean maintaining freedom of movement, which would upset those who voted leave to stop immigration from the EU.
 
I DID NOT SAY all leavers.
 
I DID NOT SAY those leavers who want controlled immigration from the EU.
 
Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I posted in some pathetic attempt to score cheap debating points, or are you too stupid to know the difference between what I said and what you claim I said?
 
BTW, I don't think that you are stupid.
 
 

I have read what you posted. I am not saying you said all leavers. You are completely missing my point. It's about what you inferred, and what gets inferred on a daily basis.

The vast majority of leavers just want the borders controlled and want EU immigrants tested just the same way non EU immigrants get tested. They don't want immigration STOPPED. Do you know of one single member here arguing for that?

And yet the vast majority of times when this issue is being debated / discussed / argued, remainers will state, just as you did, something like, "all those leavers who want immigration stopped...".

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[rixalex]

It's more than a tiny minority much much more,it was probably the biggest reason to vote leave it's just the way it is,its not that they are all racist but many not just a few English are, it's the perception that they take all the jobs and clog up the health service take all the houses etc.

Nobody is arguing that immigration wasn't a big reason to vote leave.

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[Jip99]

15 minutes ago, rixalex said:

I have read what you posted. I am not saying you said all leavers. You are completely missing my point. It's about what you inferred, and what gets inferred on a daily basis.

The vast majority of leavers just want the borders controlled and want EU immigrants tested just the same way non EU immigrants get tested. They don't want immigration STOPPED. Do you know of one single member here arguing for that?

And yet the vast majority of times when this issue is being debated / discussed / argued, remainers will state, just as you did, something like, "all those leavers who want immigration stopped...".

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I agree.

 

Immigration was one of many factors; the ABILITY to better control immigration - particularly decisions of refugee numbers - was important.

 

In reality Theresa May failed to get close to Immigration targets when she was at the Home  Office so I doubt that she would fare much better as PM.

 

Immigration vs benefits was a major angle for many voters. The question of benefits needs addressing whatever happens. 

[Srikcir]

20 minutes ago, rixalex said:

They don't want immigration STOPPED.

Brit 'Leavers' were xenophobic from nonEU immigrants and their growing families.

Academic research investigating differences in Brexit vote among local authorities concluded that the Brexit vote was bigger in areas that had seen a large rise in the proportion of immigrants between 2004 and 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration

Immigrants were not typically Church of England parishioners.

British traditions, culture and ethnicity were perceived to be challenged. They could not accept any change in the Anglo-Saxon formulation of the UK.

While no one wanted immigration stopped, they wanted to significantly curb immigration to the extent that they would safeguard their own historical A-S heritage.

Make Britain Great Again (back to the 1800's).

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Brit 'Leavers' were xenophobic from nonEU immigrants and their growing families.

Academic research investigating differences in Brexit vote among local authorities concluded that the Brexit vote was bigger in areas that had seen a large rise in the proportion of immigrants between 2004 and 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration

Immigrants were not typically Church of England parishioners.

British traditions, culture and ethnicity were perceived to be challenged. They could not accept any change in the Anglo-Saxon formulation of the UK.

While no one wanted immigration stopped, they wanted to significantly curb immigration to the extent that they would safeguard their own historical A-S heritage.

Make Britain Great Again (back to the 1800's).

Britain will always be known as "Great" and it has nothing to do with "back to the 1800. I hope this does not shatter your preconceived ideas.

 

1. “Great” Britain is a geographic term. The term Great means the major island in an archipelego. The island which contains the largest land area of the countries England and Scotland, and the Principality of Wales (Wales is NOT a country - sorry Taffy). For example, by this definition, the Outer Hebredes, Shetland, Isle of Wight are not part of “Great Britain”. Edit “Claudius Ptolemy in 148AD (used “Great”) to distinguish from Little Britain, or Ireland.” - credit Dave Cridland (I didn’t know that)
2. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Britain-called-Great-Britain-when-it-is-small-When-did-Britain-become-Great-Britain

[Grouse]

44 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Nobody is arguing that immigration wasn't a big reason to vote leave.

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So why doesn't the government control immigration more effectively. If it's not controlled you can not reduce it or even know the situation in real time

[rixalex]

Brit 'Leavers' were xenophobic from nonEU immigrants and their growing families.
Academic research investigating differences in Brexit vote among local authorities concluded that the Brexit vote was bigger in areas that had seen a large rise in the proportion of immigrants between 2004 and 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration
Immigrants were not typically Church of England parishioners.
British traditions, culture and ethnicity were perceived to be challenged. They could not accept any change in the Anglo-Saxon formulation of the UK.
While no one wanted immigration stopped, they wanted to significantly curb immigration to the extent that they would safeguard their own historical A-S heritage.
Make Britain Great Again (back to the 1800's).

Just because people want their local area to remain unchanged in terms of customs, beliefs, traditions, that doesn't make them xenophobic. People grow up with things a certain way and resist change. This is not British phenomenon. Travel around the world and you'll find communities that feel this way.

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[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Britain will always be known as "Great" and it has nothing to do with "back to the 1800. I hope this does not shatter your preconceived ideas.

 

1. “Great” Britain is a geographic term. The term Great means the major island in an archipelego. The island which contains the largest land area of the countries England and Scotland, and the Principality of Wales (Wales is NOT a country - sorry Taffy). For example, by this definition, the Outer Hebredes, Shetland, Isle of Wight are not part of “Great Britain”. Edit “Claudius Ptolemy in 148AD (used “Great”) to distinguish from Little Britain, or Ireland.” - credit Dave Cridland (I didn’t know that)
2. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Britain-called-Great-Britain-when-it-is-small-When-did-Britain-become-Great-Britain

Orkney, not covered by GB? along with Shetland and Heb, ?Rock All?

 

seems somewhat awkward that term GB? not very useful

 

[Srikcir]

25 minutes ago, vogie said:

I hope this does not shatter your preconceived ideas.

It doesn't as I am not inferring Great as part of the term Great Britain but to its perceived world status as a Great nation as it existed in the 1800's as a superpower.

POTUS uses Great not as an appendage to America - there was never a nation known as Great America.

[My Thai Life]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Neither, it's down to the individual country.

 

Visiting should be OK, but retirees who want to overwinter in Spain will now only be able to get the normal 3 months in any 6 visa.

 

If you want to go find work in an EU country you can't just go there, you need to arrange the job then apply for a work permit before you can start work - and what if those jobs require you to earn £31,000 per year like in the UK ? Many people will be excluded.

 

Many young people are going to be excedingly pised off by brexit  - lets see which ever party introduces it get re-elected in 10-20 years time.

Your first sentence is the key one. It's too early to be clear about the effect of future visa requirements. I agree that some people will be affected, but it's likely to be a very very small number of people.

 

People without desired skills, qualifications or net worth will be the most affected. But how many of these are living in EU countries anyway.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of young people who are unhappy with the EU now.

 

 

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Orkney, not covered by GB? along with Shetland and Heb, ?Rock All?

 

seems somewhat awkward that term GB? not very useful

 

I think we had better blame the Romans for that one, personally I would have named it after the Shadows hit, 'Wonderful Land' ????

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Obviously they do make use of such things..but the British Taxpayer picks up the tab on health-care..I know this for a fact.
Just the same as a Spanish person receiving eg health-care in the UK.
The bill goes to Spain.

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Exactly my original point which you said was rubbish.

"The bill goes to Spain."

Now tell me where the money paid by Spain and every other EU country went.

Had it been used as additional funding to the main services used by EU nationals in the UK then it is unlikely we would be in this mess.

 

Public social spending in the UK as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in Europe and people have been led to believe that this is the fault of the EU.

http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2016-Social-Expenditure-Update.pdf

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

What is wrong with getting a visa from the country that you wish to work, study or live in permanently?

 

There is a big difference between having a right to something than having to ask permission for it.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

I agree.

 

Immigration was one of many factors; the ABILITY to better control immigration - particularly decisions of refugee numbers - was important.

 

In reality Theresa May failed to get close to Immigration targets when she was at the Home  Office so I doubt that she would fare much better as PM.

 

Immigration vs benefits was a major angle for many voters. The question of benefits needs addressing whatever happens. 

Not immigration itself, it was the perception of immigration that was the 'factor'. 

Adequate funding to the essential services would have altered that perception for many. The ONS report in the year prior to the referendum showed immigration from outside the EU to be greater than those from the EU

"Net migration of European Union (EU) citizens showed an increase of 42,000 to 180,000, with the number from countries outside the bloc also up 36,000 to 201,000"

Of course the leave campaign focused on the overall total blaming it all on the EU.

 

"In reality Theresa May failed to get close to Immigration targets when she was at the Home Office"

Spot on, government has always had the tools. From the same ONS report

"A total of 50,000 Romanians and Bulgarians came to the UK in the year to June, a rise of 19,000; restrictions on citizens from the two countries working in the UK were lifted in January last year"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34931725

 

 

[billd766]

13 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

why do we need visas in europe for europeans? Why create a new bureaucratic monster? that you try get in kampheng pet with your pension over the rounds is ok. Why cut the freedom of others?

You still have not answered the question from a few posts ago.

 

Why would you think that we are Europeans? Few of us are and not everybody wants to be either. There is a whole world outside of the EU and in most cases it is far less dictatorial than the EU.

 

There should be no problems in getting a visa (it isn't difficult or rocket science) to almost any country in the world. Why should it be any different when we leave the EU?

 

Why do you assume that the UK will create a new bureaucratic monster and for what reason? The Passport office is already in existence so there will be no change there.

 

All you will need is a passport which you will need anyway, and an application form to visit the country of your choice. That country has the choice of accepting or rejecting you, NOT the UK.

 

Where am I cutting the freedom of others?

 

I don't understand why you have brought quote "that you try get in kampheng pet with your pension over the rounds is ok".

To be truthful I have no idea what you are on about with that, but I suspect it has nothing to do with the topic in hand.

 

You are so negative in your way of thinking.

 

 

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

There should be no problems in getting a visa (it isn't difficult or rocket science) to almost any country in the world. Why should it be any different when we leave the EU?

 I used to holiday in France and Spain with my parents in the 1960s, no VISA required before the EU, why would I need one after the EU.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

There is a big difference between having a right to something than having to ask permission for it.

Who determines what is a "right" and what is not?

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

 I used to holiday in France and Spain with my parents in the 1960s, no VISA required before the EU, why would I need one after the EU.

good thing you say that you holidayed in Fra and Spa and not in Europe as many of your

fellow countrymen would say

 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Who determines what is a "right" and what is not?

"Rights" are granted to EU citizens under EU law and leavers voted to remove all rights under EU law from UK citizens. The fact that travel may be relatively easy is hardly an argument for the removal of said rights.

I appreciate that those hell bent on complete separation from the EU will have little regard for the rights of others.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

 I used to holiday in France and Spain with my parents in the 1960s, no VISA required before the EU, why would I need one after the EU.

In the late 60's before the EU, you could only take £50 out of the UK, why shouldn't it be the same after the EU.

 

There is a "visa requirement" obligation on anyone not holding a passport of the county concerned, even in the EU. The UK is currently under a visa facilitation agreement which satisfies the visa requirement, these also apply to some non EU countries to the east of the EU.

Other simple forms of entry can be 'visa waiver' or 'visitor visa'(Schengen for the EU), staying in a country long term is a different ball game.

The EU plan to introduce a visa waiver programme in 2020?, similar to the US ESTA arrangement, and this is the most likely option for UK travellers.

[sandyf]

Another nail in the coffin?

 

The court went even further than its advocate general and said the UK could even revoke Article 50 if the period had been extended. This is significant because it means time could be bought to hold a referendum or general election whose result could see Brexit cancelled. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-court-case-ecj-ruling-article-50-theresa-may-deal-uk-european-court-justice-latest-a8675541.html

[tebee]

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Is anyone surprised of such statements? They are criminals. They manipulated a referendum; they want to dishonor legal obligations; they promote the idea of riot; the want to wreck the economy. 

[adammike]

9 hours ago, rixalex said:

I have read what you posted. I am not saying you said all leavers. You are completely missing my point. It's about what you inferred, and what gets inferred on a daily basis.

The vast majority of leavers just want the borders controlled and want EU immigrants tested just the same way non EU immigrants get tested. They don't want immigration STOPPED. Do you know of one single member here arguing for that?

And yet the vast majority of times when this issue is being debated / discussed / argued, remainers will state, just as you did, something like, "all those leavers who want immigration stopped...".

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Dead cat alert.

[7by7]

10 hours ago, rixalex said:

I have read what you posted. I am not saying you said all leavers. You are completely missing my point. It's about what you inferred, and what gets inferred on a daily basis.

The vast majority of leavers just want the borders controlled and want EU immigrants tested just the same way non EU immigrants get tested. They don't want immigration STOPPED. Do you know of one single member here arguing for that?

And yet the vast majority of times when this issue is being debated / discussed / argued, remainers will state, just as you did, something like, "all those leavers who want immigration stopped...".

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Deliberately misinterpreting what I posted in some pathetic attempt to score cheap debating points it is, then.

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Another nail in the coffin?

 

The court went even further than its advocate general and said the UK could even revoke Article 50 if the period had been extended. This is significant because it means time could be bought to hold a referendum or general election whose result could see Brexit cancelled. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-court-case-ecj-ruling-article-50-theresa-may-deal-uk-european-court-justice-latest-a8675541.html

or  a new government and renegotiated deal

 

[rixalex]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Deliberately misinterpreting what I posted in some pathetic attempt to score cheap debating points it is, then.

Quite the reverse. It's you doing the usual remainer trick of rather than arguing against what the vast majority of leavers are calling for (a controlled immigration policy), arguing against something virtually no leaver is calling for (a North Korea style immigration policy, in which no immigrants whatsoever are allowed in).

 

All part of the ongoing propaganda campaign to try to discredit and smear the other side of the debate by making them out to be extreme, far-right, anti-foreign, small-minded, bigots.

[sandyf]

On 12/10/2018 at 8:06 AM, rixalex said:

The vast majority of leavers just want the borders controlled and want EU immigrants tested just the same way non EU immigrants get tested. 

So you want to be 'tested', whatever that is supposed to mean, every time you visit another European country.

Somehow I do not think your 'majority of leavers' would agree with you.