After delaying Brexit vote, May looks set to face leadership challenge

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

As far as I can see the brit. politicians made no attempt at all to put a reasonable free trade agreement at the top of the agenda!

I think the mandate from the vote was Brexit with a free trade deal (the equal of what we have),  This was flatly rejected by EU from the outset- there was no real negotiating position.  Up to the EU of course, but I can't in all honestly blame HM Govt for what I see as an intransigent negotiating partner.

 

And from there all problems spring imo.  I think a lot of the hassle is not about us leaving EU- by now most remainers accept the need for this- but rather everyone had become angry that the promised goodies from the Leave Camp never materialised.  Thus, May's deal looks like the booby prize.

 

So, in effect, I would say that your rather literal reading of what Brexit means is a very hard sell, and by not be realistic about this it must therefore feel like you are being betrayed.

[dunroaming]

57 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

nobody else could have done a better job? not sure I can agree with that, I think she has handled the

negotiations very badly from the very start and with the wrong crew all along

 

agree with you when you say she saw the PM opportunity and grabbed it,

depending on how mentally blocked she is

she may or may not regret it

 

doomed to failure? don't agree

 

at any rate as we say in Yorkshire,

if the tories vote her down

does the Tory party have any credible replacements? or is Labour next?

 

Let me clarify.  There are plenty who could have done a better job, especially as May came out straight away with ludicrous red lines before starting the negotiations.  She was then constantly trying to appease the Brexiteers around her, further complicating her position.  She made a complete pigs ear of it.  I am referring to where we are now with the only deal she has being signed off with the EU saying that that is no way to re-negotiate.  Given that then I think she is the only one who can see this through now.

 

But I am interested that you don't think this has been a failure (doomed to failure).  Do you feel that a successful Brexit is still possible and can deliver what the people really voted for?

[bkkcanuck8]

13 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I think the mandate from the vote was Brexit with a free trade deal (the equal of what we have),  This was flatly rejected by EU from the outset- there was no real negotiating position.  Up to the EU of course, but I can't in all honestly blame HM Govt for what I see as an intransigent negotiating partner.

 

And from there all problems spring imo.  I think a lot of the hassle is not about us leaving EU- by now most remainers accept the need for this- but rather everyone had become angry that the promised goodies from the Leave Camp never materialised.  Thus, May's deal looks like the booby prize.

 

So, in effect, I would say that your rather literal reading of what Brexit means is a very hard sell, and by not be realistic about this it must therefore feel like you are being betrayed.

So you really believed that you could remove things from the agreement and the EU would not do the same?  Allowing the UK a special deal of having none of the responsibilities of being an EU member and having all the benefits - would be highly unfair to all the rest of the members of the EU. That agreement was never possible without harming or endangering the EU at large.

 

Personally, I would say your anger would be better placed with those that sold you that fairy tale rather than misdirecting your anger.  What you were looking for was a capitulation not a negotiation.

[melvinmelvin]

6 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Let me clarify.  There are plenty who could have done a better job, especially as May came out straight away with ludicrous red lines before starting the negotiations.  She was then constantly trying to appease the Brexiteers around her, further complicating her position.  She made a complete pigs ear of it.  I am referring to where we are now with the only deal she has being signed off with the EU saying that that is no way to re-negotiate.  Given that then I think she is the only one who can see this through now.

 

But I am interested that you don't think this has been a failure (doomed to failure).  Do you feel that a successful Brexit is still possible and can deliver what the people really voted for?

 

what I mean is that it was not doomed from the start

 

now - it is in all likelihood too late to make something useful out of this

 

deliver what people voted for? guess the nearest now would be no deal Brexit

the way I see it, the present deal is miles away from delivering on the referendum, miles

 

when you say she is the only one who can see this through,

does that imply that you have ruled out no deal Brexit?

I do not think she is needed for a no deal Brexit

 

if this deal of her should pass,

no need for her anymore - the way I see it -

you have a completely new map for UK and EU, anybody could start navigating the UK through that new map

 

I consider the situation rather messy, is May a capable cleaning lady?

 

 

[dunroaming]

19 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

what I mean is that it was not doomed from the start

 

now - it is in all likelihood too late to make something useful out of this

 

deliver what people voted for? guess the nearest now would be no deal Brexit

the way I see it, the present deal is miles away from delivering on the referendum, miles

 

when you say she is the only one who can see this through,

does that imply that you have ruled out no deal Brexit?

I do not think she is needed for a no deal Brexit

 

if this deal of her should pass,

no need for her anymore - the way I see it -

you have a completely new map for UK and EU, anybody could start navigating the UK through that new map

 

I consider the situation rather messy, is May a capable cleaning lady?

 

 

I cannot see a no deal Brexit ever happening.  I cannot imagine any politician signing that off and parliament have said that they would do everything in their power to not allow one to happen.  Hence the vote to give them a meaningful say.

 

You say that it was not doomed from the start but from the start it was May in charge.  The people who should have stood up to try to deliver Brexit ran away.

 

As for May being a capable cleaning lady....  Years ago I lived in Hong Kong and employed a young attractive Filipino maid to do the cleaning, washing etc.  First week she put all of my clothes in the washing machine on full heat and power, including the red "Santa" socks I had been given for Christmas.  Needless to say everything came out a delicate shade of pink and all my jumpers were three sizes smaller.  When I challenged her about it she said she didn't understand the instructions so she just carried on regardless.  Clearly similarities with Theresa May who would compare rather well when it comes to being a cleaning lady. 

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

So you really believed that you could remove things from the agreement and the EU would not do the same?  Allowing the UK a special deal of having none of the responsibilities of being an EU member and having all the benefits - would be highly unfair to all the rest of the members of the EU. That agreement was never possible without harming or endangering the EU at large.

 

Personally, I would say your anger would be better placed with those that sold you that fairy tale rather than misdirecting your anger.  What you were looking for was a capitulation not a negotiation.

This was my overview on how people feel- not me necessarily.   Yes, indeed, had the electorate not been sold such a load of rubbish, then possibly a no deal exit would be more acceptable. It could be a moot point anyway- no deal or quit Brexit are the only viable options now imo.

 

Was it so unreasonable to expect a full trade deal?  Probably, but when one considers the sheer volume of trade, and the fact that the EU is by far the biggest benefactor one might reasonably have expected better.  I suggest that you would not have Canada sign up to such a deal.  That's because it's crap.

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

I cannot see a no deal Brexit ever happening.  I cannot imagine any politician signing that off and parliament have said that they would do everything in their power to not allow one to happen.  Hence the vote to give them a meaningful say.

 

You say that it was not doomed from the start but from the start it was May in charge.  The people who should have stood up to try to deliver Brexit ran away.

 

As for May being a capable cleaning lady....  Years ago I lived in Hong Kong and employed a young attractive Filipino maid to do the cleaning, washing etc.  First week she put all of my clothes in the washing machine on full heat and power, including the red "Santa" socks I had been given for Christmas.  Needless to say everything came out a delicate shade of pink and all my jumpers were three sizes smaller.  When I challenged her about it she said she didn't understand the instructions so she just carried on regardless.  Clearly similarities with Theresa May who would compare rather well when it comes to being a cleaning lady. 

well,

at least we agree on cleaning lady capabilities

and TM ain't even young and attractive, and can not speak Tagalog I am sure

 

 

if you say no deal will not happen

then there is either deal or remain left

 

the interesting bit would be - how would the electorate like that?

 

[bkkcanuck8]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This was my overview on how people feel- not me necessarily.   Yes, indeed, had the electorate not been sold such a load of rubbish, then possibly a no deal exit would be more acceptable. It could be a moot point anyway- no deal or quit Brexit are the only viable options now imo.

 

Was it so unreasonable to expect a full trade deal?  Probably, but when one considers the sheer volume of trade, and the fact that the EU is by far the biggest benefactor one might reasonably have expected better.  I suggest that you would not have Canada sign up to such a deal.  That's because it's crap.

And that feeling - which was fed to them -- is exactly the reason why May was unable to start negotiating in good faith from the beginning... because she could not be honest and open about the deal likely to be struck since so many people had been fed a load of bull.  It was not held from public because of negotiating position, it was because they were hiding it from the public.  A full trade deal yes (similar to what Canada has with the EU) -- which the EU has said is available... but the bull that it could be Canada plus plus plus which is the same deal that the UK had when they were domestic - while walking away from parts they don't like... yes... completely unrealistic.  The trade deal is still an option but it means certain industries (like the financial industry) has to adapt to a different marketplace since their domestic marketplace would shrink down to just the UK.

[kwilco]

12 hours ago, vogie said:

It doesn't matter about the 17.4 million voters who voted to leave does it.

Well as it is patently clear that those voters all had differing perceptions of what Brexit was they don't really exist as a single entity.

Some now want to stay, others want a "hard Brexit" but cant agree what that is, some even like Theresa's plan... I'm sure some will be upset but unified....never.

[kwilco]

In a few hours we will know if the Tory party is officially a headless chicken.

Id guess that Theresa "the eel" May will survive this, by saying she wont stand in the next general election (2021), but she is still legally obliged to hold the vote on the deal....probably in Jan which when rejected will leave only days to reject Brexit.

 

One has to conclude that Brexit was a bad idea from the start and the Brexiteers have shown the world how below par they are by making a cod's ear of the whole thing from its conception to its disastrous end.

 

They can try to bluster and blame others or the EU but the world knows they were just a bunch of incompetent fools with a hopelessly ridiculous idea.

 

[Jip99]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

In a few hours we will know if the Tory party is officially a headless chicken.

Id guess that Theresa "the eel" May will survive this, by saying she wont stand in the next general election (2021), but she is still legally obliged to hold the vote on the deal....probably in Jan which when rejected will leave only days to reject Brexit.

 

One has to conclude that Brexit was a bad idea from the start and the Brexiteers have shown the world how below par they are by making a cod's ear of the whole thing from its conception to its disastrous end.

 

They can try to bluster and blame others or the EU but the world knows they were just a bunch of incompetent fools with a hopelessly ridiculous idea.

 

 

 

The assumptions you make are erroneous.

 

Brexit was a great idea, badly implemented.

 

 

That is why it will eventually succeed.

 

 

[kwilco]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

The assumptions you make are erroneous.

 

Brexit was a great idea, badly implemented.

 

 

That is why it will eventually succeed.

 

 

QED!

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Well as it is patently clear that those voters all had differing perceptions of what Brexit was they don't really exist as a single entity.

Some now want to stay, others want a "hard Brexit" but cant agree what that is, some even like Theresa's plan... I'm sure some will be upset but unified....never.

And of course you have all the details of the "differing perceptions" or are these details only in the head of kwilco.

BTW Why doesn't Comrade Corbyn propose a no confidence vote in the government, because the Labour Party knows they would lose. It's hard for you to grasp I'm sure but the Labour party are in a greater dissaray than the Tories. What is their stance on a 'Losers Vote', they don't know yet.????????

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

QED!

OMG!

[mommysboy]

13 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

And that feeling - which was fed to them -- is exactly the reason why May was unable to start negotiating in good faith from the beginning... because she could not be honest and open about the deal likely to be struck since so many people had been fed a load of bull.  It was not held from public because of negotiating position, it was because they were hiding it from the public.  A full trade deal yes (similar to what Canada has with the EU) -- which the EU has said is available... but the bull that it could be Canada plus plus plus which is the same deal that the UK had when they were domestic - while walking away from parts they don't like... yes... completely unrealistic.  

In any negotiated deal, equivalence would be a certainty in the financial sector.

 

When one looks closer, the only deal that delivers fundamentally on Brexit is no deal, and the only way of maintaining the current deal is to exit Brexit.  These are the stark choices imo, and pretending otherwise just creates a dog's Brexit.  

[mommysboy]

26 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

The assumptions you make are erroneous.

 

Brexit was a great idea, badly implemented.

 

 

That is why it will eventually succeed.

 

 

Maybe, but it's never really sat well with reality.

 

On the face of it, there shouldn't really be a problem, but every which way there is a minefield. This is because everything was promised to everybody.

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

In any negotiated deal, equivalence would be a certainty in the financial sector.

 

When one looks closer, the only deal that delivers fundamentally on Brexit is no deal, and the only way of maintaining the current deal is to exit Brexit.  These are the stark choices imo, and pretending otherwise just creates a dog's Brexit.  

That is a valid approach to brexit (no-deal).   Financial sector is services but then labour is also services. 

[nauseus]

36 minutes ago, kwilco said:

QED!

QE2

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

QE2

I believe that ship was retired.

[Jip99]

22 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Maybe, but it's never really sat well with reality.

 

On the face of it, there shouldn't really be a problem, but every which way there is a minefield. This is because everything was promised to everybody.

 

 

 

 

But nobody promised me anything  -  other than exiting the EU.

[Jip99]

16 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

But nobody promised me anything  -  other than exiting the EU.

 

Just a reminder of what I voted for......................... and against.

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

But nobody promised me anything  -  other than exiting the EU.

Yeah! that's true too.  Same as the bloke next door took it to be with a good deal.  While another though it meant Norway model.  And his cousin thought it would be the end of EU immigration. Like I said, everything to everybody.  So, now you've been let down too, just like the others.

[mommysboy]

50 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

Just a reminder of what I voted for......................... and against.

 

 

 

The guy's like Alf Garnet.  Amusing in parts.

 

The thing is you have one view. Obviously, you look to reinforce that with media reflecting the same- we all do it- birds of a feather

 

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yeah! that's true too.  Same as the bloke next door took it to be with a good deal.  While another though it meant Norway model.  And his cousin thought it would be the end of EU immigration. Like I said, everything to everybody.  So, now you've been let down too, just like the others.

 

I agree - it is easy to highlight the flaws in individual expectations.

 

BUT, the ballot question was .... to leave the EU.

 

 

At the end of the day I voted for whatever that meant - no pictures were supplied, only created in peoples' minds. Where we are in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years is what is important - but let's get out first.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The guy's like Alf Garnet.  Amusing in parts.

 

The thing is you have one view. Obviously, you look to reinforce that with media reflecting the same- we all do it- birds of a feather

 

 

 

Many words of Pat Condell (not those with a racist tone to them) resonate with me so, yes birds of a feather is a natural analogy.

 

Condell is way beyond comparison with a fiction race-hate character - but, yes, he has an amusing delivery,

 

I can particularly relate to his comments about voting for "what we didn't want". I for one, no longer wanted be part of the EU which had long since exceeded it's original remit.

 

I will take whatever "out" means because I believe that, in time, that out will be far better than any "in".

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I agree - it is easy to highlight the flaws in individual expectations.

 

BUT, the ballot question was .... to leave the EU.

 

 

At the end of the day I voted for whatever that meant - no pictures were supplied, only created in peoples' minds. Where we are in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years is what is important - but let's get out first.

'the ballot question was .... to leave the EU.'

 

Yes, but it didn't give carte blanche.  Not that I don't have a lot of sympathy with your view. But you can't simply overlook all that went on in the campaign.

 

No deal may be the only leave option anyway.  And that would have been more obvious if TM had not ducked the vote.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'the ballot question was .... to leave the EU.'

 

Yes, but it didn't give carte blanche.  Not that I don't have a lot of sympathy with your view. But you can't simply overlook all that went on in the campaign.

 

No deal may be the only leave option anyway.  And that would have been more obvious if TM had not ducked the vote.

 

You can't paint on a blank canvas without any paints.

 

I accept my own naivety in believing that the EU would actually co-operate in helping to create an exit that would maximise the benefit s for all countries post Brexit.

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

You can't paint on a blank canvas without any paints.

 

I accept my own naivety in believing that the EU would actually co-operate in helping to create an exit that would maximise the benefit s for all countries post Brexit.

They will not risk sacrificing the EU by making it better being outside the EU than in.   There are more interests than just the UK.

[tebee]

 

[kwilco]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

And of course you have all the details of the "differing perceptions" or are these details only in the head of kwilco.

Only someone with severe intellectual shortfalls could not appreciate the divisions amongst Brexiteers.